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So for the terminators, one game they got staggered dropped on turn 3/4, the other they both came in on turn 2. Both games i controlled a minimum of 3/5 objectives either way and would have won through progressive snowballing. We talked about it after game 2, and if he had put ogryns in the structures instead, he would have countered my entire strategy; 3d6+6 isnt a tempting target for the terminators.

I originally had this big anecdote about playing both end game and progressive over the years of GW games, but the site ate my entire post so I'll just say this. Both are game able, both allow for strategies to squeeze the most advantage out of. Progressive has resulted in the most turn 2/3 surrenders in my experience, and the least fun games as early scoring snowballs into a guaranteed win.

Stuff like raven guard or alpha legion just allow turn 1 scoring tempo for any player that includes them, by dint of showing up. Take something with quake or shock pulse and just have fun with the turn 1 lead. Solar aux just can't do anything like that, but at least they can do some end game scoring with arvuses the same way marines can with their flying transports.

Infiltrate is a good point, I hadn't really considered that in conjunction with progressive scoring but that does seem like a real issue. For me it would certainly come up as I'm doing raven guard for marines. This also ties in with most missions having fixed objective locations, granted that's not always the end of the world but for some that have say the preponderance of objectives in no man's land and few or none for deployment zone objectives, infiltrating units just seems to be gifted an early lead in progressive scoring. Thankfully there's still a mission that has both sides alternate placing objectives, but the deployment zones seem to make infiltrate less relevant seeing as it looks like half the board in that scenario/mission.

The better attempts of gw to do progressive scoring have it only kick in on turn 2 to allow both sides an opportunity to get in position, but it seems the people doing the specialist game missions...didn't quite get the memo; dominion has the same issues in 30k with scoring from turn 1.

Now, granted LI has alternating activations to avoid "1st player gets maximum advantage" syndrome, but there's still really so much you can do if the raven guard/alpha legion infiltrate screens and core units onto the objectives and just saturate them with tactical strength.

Just to put the cat among the pigeons, the group I game with have our own way of deciding win/loss.
To be clear this is our preferred method, we are all very narrative play inclined and don't go near the competitive scene as a few of us havehaf very bad experiences, not with the games but with some of the people up to and including a player being threatened with a knife by his opponent.
Enough rambling, for all games we play whether FOW, LI, 40k or whatever it's decided simply by each player drawing up or writing a battle plan and the one who succeeds closest to completing his/her objectives wins, simple really. Each to their own.

There are tactics & traits that help with either type of scoring.

Infiltrate is a fringe case, 2/18 Legions can do it, 16/18 can't and SA can't. Some units coming later are likely to have it organic but those are not tough units with staying power in general.

Marching Rhinos & disembarked troops can reach past midfield in Turn 1 already anyway and bring lots of tactical strength.

Drop Pods changes this to all of the battlefield anyway, for stuff that don't already have deep strike.

I hope SA get their Dracosan transports soon! And hopefully the faster, smaller one too (forgot its name).

Anyway a key is not comparing custom End game scoring with OOTB progressive scenarios. We need to modify the progressive too if judging fairly.

Scoring from turn 2 and enough end game scoring so games can swing an early lead if played well is generally good imo. Or even progressive progressive scoring: increasing vp for each objective from turn 2 to end game.

SA can infiltrate and forward deploy their whole armies with pioneer formations, though you need to cough up some Rapiers for it.

 Sherrypie wrote:
SA can infiltrate and forward deploy their whole armies with pioneer formations, though you need to cough up some Rapiers for it.

Yeah. Hard to comment on even fairly early balance between the factions with sooooo much stuff to come for both. Transports for SA, infiltrate for SA, drop pods and flyers for marines, jet bikes etc etc etc.

Keep in mind for Marines at least its not just Rhinos.. you also have Storm Eagles and Thunderhawks for that "got to get there first" moment

and the legions that can infiltrate, while thats seriously strong without a doubt don't get some of the tricks other legions get

E.g. XIV making the terrain you want to occupy near the objectives dangerous

Well SA already do have their own fliers for the "got to get there first" moments

Albeit triple the euro cost per transport slot but it's there.

(on flip side it's so cheap point wise you can have cheap detachment waiting in air forcing marines to keep something at rear guarding rear objective. For marines keeping flyer just waiting for chance would be more expensive proposal)

tneva82 wrote:
Well SA already do have their own fliers for the "got to get there first" moments

Albeit triple the euro cost per transport slot but it's there.

(on flip side it's so cheap point wise you can have cheap detachment waiting in air forcing marines to keep something at rear guarding rear objective. For marines keeping flyer just waiting for chance would be more expensive proposal)

yes the marine transport fliers are eye watering in points while that little unarmed SA one is certainly cheap, hadn't really looked to be honest but they look really good

Arvus is not flashy one certainly but the advantage is that it forces opponent to respond to it. Can't just mark rear objectives sticky and move forward. If SA just moves slowly forward having to keep rear guarded as well due to marine flyers that's immediately hands tied to a degree.

Add just 4 stands in 2 fliers and if marine leaves objective rear unguarded hey presto you can steal it.

Especially until artirelly and draconians arrive this can be useful tool.

But does mean quite a hefty euro/pound tag Which is why I would go for the cheap detachment rather than full assault formation.

54 pts for SA cheapest air transport detachment vs 135 for marines. Obviously 4 tacticals bit more useful than 4 lasrifle stand and storm eagle has guns and arvus not but still the value of threatening rear objectives is there.

you've got me looking at them now, and for exactly that threat factor, they can live off board initially as well

Yeah going in right away probably not strategy to go for. Wait for suitable spot.

It's not the thunderhawk&drop 4 dreadnought/8 terminator or assault marine threat level unit but hell of a lot cheaper so they can afford to wait. And cheap enough if they do go poof to overwatch won't sting as much as thunderhawk. And at least removed shooting vs bigger unit if that happens.

Just theoryhammer but seems good.

Thinking here its a case of looking what air defences the enemy has, trying to spend a turn or two nuking that then drop some annoyance behind enemy lines, they may not be hard to kill but four stands of SA, even without a nearby commander still have to be killed.. in a game with not much that can split fire and where everyone seems to be doing a downer on adding some heavy bolters to vehicles

Me, I'm adding heavy bolters here and there. Not all but some have them. Infantry might not be fancy, it might not be killy but cheap, just few can grab objective from tanks and split fire rare. Hence my running theory is heavy bolters are more useful than stats would indicate in direct kill power.

I'm doing Heavy Bolters here and there too, PD is a strong rule that lets you shoot before general shooting in the combat phase & Overwatch at effectivity. That's worth a lot. Got to counter those pesky deep strikers & air cav with something. Its much easier taking out the Infantry before it can garrison.

AA w Skyfire is the other option but more costly.

Sure Lascannons are good in themselves but e.g. las Predators are going to be outshone by all the proper AT stuff once it arrives anyway.

I like that scenarios & tactics promote a balanced combined approach. Even though skew lista will certainly be a factor in this game too, if played that way.

Predators might be outshone in kill rate but provided they are cheap enough that's value of it's own. Especially due to limit of split fire. If you have 2 detachments opponent has harder time to deal with than 1 nastier detachment.

And with lethality so high bodies has durability of it's own.

 westiebestie wrote:
Infiltrate is a fringe case.

It's really really not, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sherrypie wrote:
SA can infiltrate and forward deploy their whole armies with pioneer formations, though you need to cough up some Rapiers for it.

Exactly this.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
Infiltrate is a fringe case.

It's really really not, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sherrypie wrote:
SA can infiltrate and forward deploy their whole armies with pioneer formations, though you need to cough up some Rapiers for it.

Exactly this.

I was not aware of the SA Formation rule, only play Astartes, thanks Sherrypie! And gee thanks C for repeating Sherrys post.

So lots of Rapiers for now then. And mostly (squishy) Vanguard, some Support and one unit of Armour for the rest. Be interesting to see a whole Formation forward deploy like that! Sounds fun!

Its still a fringe case for Astartes.

Anyway as described, marching Astartes Transports & Charging (out of an Assault Transport) or Marching transported troops gets you past midfield turn 1 anyway on most table sizes and deployment maps so those matchups could be bloody short range engagements quickly and both sides are able to contest objectives.

Marched transports, LRs & Air Dropped jump troops mean it's anyones game to grab stuff early though, and imo more powerful than Infiltrate. Drop Pods & Air Drops threaten all the way over the table if one leaves their back field open.

I can't see Infiltration being what I would call an issue in any scenario, once we have a complete game its merely one of many ways to get forward early. The difference of course being before or during Turn 1. It's useful though, not saying it's not.

But it's very good to see SA getting some help in getting forwards so both main factions have more tools in their tool box. Hoping they get their Transports soon as well.

I need to find an opponent that does SA so I can see this puppy on the table. And watch stuff burn under the fires from a Malcador Infernus.

keep in mind having more detachments on the board than your opponent has many advantages, e.g. bringing your air interceptors on after theirs, so you get the "Interceptor" shot and they don't etc.

multiple small units are more flexible when shooting and harder to kill - yes more vulnerable to fall back as a cost but with multiple small units, say units of three to even test two will be dead so the resulting loss isn't huge - fall them back, out of sight and they are another activation to play with

I'm trying to have at least one tank with HB sponsons in a unit of three, even if not used much the ability to threaten drive-by attacks helps keep smaller enemy infantry on its toes

 westiebestie wrote:
T

Infiltrate is a fringe case, 2/18 Legions can do it, 16/18 can't and SA can't. Some units coming later are likely to have it organic but those are not tough units with staying power in general.

Those 2 legions have....huge swathes of units doing it. And it also ignores the fact that you can freely mix as many legions as you have formations. You can quite literally tailor an infiltrating infantry wall to supplement any marine force; 8 tacs and 16 terminators to stand in front and screen is about 255 points with hq. If you need more screens you have plenty of room to add it. It's actually incredibly easy to incorporate into marine lists and has....no downsides to doing it.

So good reason for me not to love progressive scoring.






So to bring this back on to the topic at hand, break points, fair to say combined break points work well for an event because it means not having to police formations in terms of identical units or institute/invent some convoluted system attendees must follow.


Formation could be limited but I don't know what those limits would be. I know personally I don't love super friends marine lists with a different legion for each formation, so I'd probably start there in terms of introducing limits. Precisely to avoid players taking formations to get infiltrate or better jink saves.

If the thought is to force variety, could limit each formation 0-1, so could still have like 3 formations but each would be different. This would limit solar aux from doing multiple infiltrating formations for example. Would limit a little bit armour, not by much but would at least force likely larger units. Then standard like allie/knight/titan formations.

But ya combined breaking point solves more, for me at least, than having to make a whole system for tracking formations and enforce it. Hard enough to get people not to glue giant bases to tanks already

Heavy bolters: I pretty much put on them where possible on the grounds that a) infantry is important so increasing the ability to remove my opponent's foot-sloggers seemed a good idea, and b) the split-fire/shoot in the movement phase seemed like a good ability to buy into. Later tank detachments can specialize as tank hunters later.

Combining break points for the whole army.... I think I'll run a few events 'by the book' to start with and see how the players manage.

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
T

Infiltrate is a fringe case, 2/18 Legions can do it, 16/18 can't and SA can't. Some units coming later are likely to have it organic but those are not tough units with staying power in general.

Those 2 legions have....huge swathes of units doing it. And it also ignores the fact that you can freely mix as many legions as you have formations. You can quite literally tailor an infiltrating infantry wall to supplement any marine force; 8 tacs and 16 terminators to stand in front and screen is about 255 points with hq. If you need more screens you have plenty of room to add it. It's actually incredibly easy to incorporate into marine lists and has....no downsides to doing it.

RG Astartes case that have it do have a big opportunity, AL can only infiltrate one (1) detachment if taken as Allied Formation or three (3) if primary. That's nowhere near "huge swathes".

I would say only 1/18 Legions have a major opportunity to infiltrate. Which by polls is also the least popular to paint, because its so dark in this scale.

The cases of occurance are still a marginal/minority, hence my word fringe. If you feel it's not a minor thing in your player base, ok. If many in your group plays RG or Pioneer Formations, fair.

Regarding fringe or not. I like to base my arguments on some kind of argumentation or data instead of just expressing a strong opinion. In this case, I used the data available. Polls here and on FB indicate about 80% players do Astartes, 20 SA. Of those 80%, 0-1 do RG, ~5% do AL. So about 0.1-0.8 % of all players play RG in the wider community of context here given the data at hand. By definition fringe. If you think thats indicating non fringe in general, well what argument or data do you base that on?

Small data set but an indication. Another is the total lack of RG paint posts in either FB group. They might all be slow or non sharing, but is it likely see bout to see a sudden RG explosion, all in the name of Infiltrate exploitation of progressive scoring? Since there are so many other ways of taking objectives early I can't see it like you do.

Very few players aim to paint small black models in general, DA and IH slightly less impopular, but how many will do it just to get Infiltrate?

Allied Formations also dont seem popular at all, yet.

You two are probably talking from the competitive/tournament perspective though. There I too believe gaming for advantage rather than rule of cool will be popular. But other Legions bring very strong Traits too. I think you'll find there are way more popular power gaming builds than RG.

I for one think RG are super cool and it would be a shame to try to forbid the builds as possible due to Legion Traits

Anyway your friend/friend of opinion is already talking about both not allowing mixing different Astartes Legions and only having end game scoring to avoid this. So it wont be occuring for you if attending those events.

For the rest of us, its interesting tactical variation like many other varied strategies.

If one wants to forbid forward deployment, the logical extension would also be to forbid any type of assymetric arrival e.g deep strike. Both affect objective scoring opportunity. But the more you forbid, the less LI Out of the book remains.

Now now @ C, your gut reflex troll jabs like throwing in Pacman just reduce likelihood of being taken seriously vs staying on subject like the rest of your post. Meant seriously as a word of advice if you want people to take your other content seriously. It's a discussion forum for mostly adults. Internet discussion isn't that different to IRL, its not about winning with insults or offense or provoking reaction. Its about understanding eachothers points, some times reaching concensus, in other times such as this just realizing other perspectives.

As you said its not about convincing you or me. I am totally fine with you wanting only End game scoring, army wide Break Point, no infiltrate, no Allied Legions or whatever other change from Core rules to make it better for how you like it. It's your game. And ours are ours. We both have a passion for the game, thats good. Like I said, enjoy the game, I think we all do, mostly.

And with big pile of options going fast infiltrate isn't super-duper-autowin button.

Yes you go there 1st. Enjoy getting charged by guys rerolling 1 dice in melee. You won't be there long.

Infiltrate into garrison? Have fun getting charged by guys ignoring your caf bonus from garrison.

Plenty of legions have good traits. Wolves have not so hot, ts not sold on(at least i'm often not having many commanders).

And it won't be long before even more options come. Drop pods, draconians etc.

It's only "broken"if your ideal army is all tanks, shoot enemy off board and dash to objectives last turn.

Wonder what kind of army c runs

Next he's going to ask vehicles have tactical strength higher than infantry.

Yup, all Astartes can already charge past midfield objectives Turn 1. All armies can contest and/or charge backfield objective holders by Turn 2.

More ways of doing so are coming soon.

Its pretty fair that SA can infiltrate a formation to compensate for not having Assault Transports (at least not yet).

 westiebestie wrote:
There are tactics & traits that help with either type of scoring.


Anyway a key is not comparing custom End game scoring with OOTB progressive scenarios. We need to modify the progressive too if judging fairly.

Scoring from turn 2 and enough end game scoring so games can swing an early lead if played well is generally good imo. Or even progressive progressive scoring: increasing vp for each objective from turn 2 to end game.

So to clarify what I meant, don't play progressive vp scoring from Turn 1.

A couple of scenario scoring proposals we are to evaluate more and vary between

Vp per objective per turn 1-5
X,X, X, X, X
0,X,X,X,X (out of the book minus Turn 1)
0,X, X+1, X+2, X+3 (progressive progressive scoring)
0, X, X, X, 2X (out of the book minus Turn 1 and bigger importance to end game opening for a swing)
0,0,0,0,X

X donotes the VP in the scenario. Different value weather its in own deployment zone, neutral or enemy dz.

This means tactical variation is available and promoted, and we aim to modify as few game and army selection rules as possible for now.

 westiebestie wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
T

Infiltrate is a fringe case, 2/18 Legions can do it, 16/18 can't and SA can't. Some units coming later are likely to have it organic but those are not tough units with staying power in general.

Those 2 legions have....huge swathes of units doing it. And it also ignores the fact that you can freely mix as many legions as you have formations. You can quite literally tailor an infiltrating infantry wall to supplement any marine force; 8 tacs and 16 terminators to stand in front and screen is about 255 points with hq. If you need more screens you have plenty of room to add it. It's actually incredibly easy to incorporate into marine lists and has....no downsides to doing it.

RW Astartes case that have it do have a big opportunity, AL can only infiltrate one (1) detachment if taken as Allied Formation or three (3) if primary. That's nowhere near "huge swathes".

I would say only 1/18 Legions have a major opportunity to infiltrate. Which by polls is also the least popular to paint, because its so dark in this scale.

The cases of occurance are still a minority, hence my word fringe. If you feel it's not a minor thing in your player base, ok. If many in your group plays RW or Pioneer Formations, fair.

Regarding fringe or not. I like to base my arguments on some kind of argumentation or data instead of just expressing a strong opinion. In this case, I used the data available. Polls here and on FB indicate about 80% players do Astartes, 20 SA. Of those 80%, 0-1 do RW, ~5% do AL. If you think thats indicating non fringe in general, well what argument or data do you base that on?

Small data set but an indication. Another is the total lack of RW paint posts in either FB group. They might all be slow or non sharing, but is it likely see bout to see a sudden RW explosion, all in the name of Infiltrate exploitation to progressive scoring? Since there are so many other ways of taking objectives early I can't see it like you do. Anyway see last paragraph, it wont be occuring for you.

Very few players aim to paint small black models in general, DA and IH slightly less impopular, but how many will do it just to get Infiltrate?

Allied Formations also dont seem popular at all, yet.

You two are probably talking from the competitive/tournament perspective though. There I too believe gaming for advantage rather than rule of cool will be popular. But other Legions bring very strong Traits too. I think you'll find there are way more popular power gaming builds than RW.

I for one think RW are super cool and it would be a shame to try to forbid as many builds as possible.

Anyway your friend/friend of opinion is already talking about both not allowing mixing different Astartes Legions and only having end game scoring to avoid this. So it wont be occuring for you if attending those events.

For the rest of us, its interesting tactical variation like many other varied strategies.

If one wants to forbid forward deployment, the logical extension would also be to forbid any type of assymetric arrival e.g deep strike. Both affect objective scoring opportunity. But the more you forbid, the less LI Out of the book remains.

Now now @ C, your gut reflex troll jabs like throwing in Pacman just reduce likelihood of being taken seriously vs staying on subject like the rest of your post. Meant seriously as a word of advice if you want people to take your other content seriously. It's a discussion forum for mostly adults. Internet discussion isn't that different to IRL, its not about winning with insults or offense or provoking reaction. Its about understanding eachothers points, some times reaching concensus, in other times such as this just realizing other perspectives.

As you said its not about convincing you or me. I am totally fine with you wanting only End game scoring, army wide Break Point, no infiltrate, no Allied Legions or whatever other change from Core rules to make it better for how you like it. It's your game. And ours are ours. We both have a passion for the game, thats good. Like I said, enjoy the game, I think we all do, mostly.

Ya, a single detachment can have 13 models in it, in a formation that costs like 155 points. You have screening independent assault marines and then the scoring core. Easy to spam, and spam you can since mixing legions aren't allies.

Nebulous poll/data time. Kindly refrain from claiming data analysis when you're not making polls to answer the specific question, have an admittedly small sample size, and use percentages instead of numbers. General "what legion are you interested in starting" to a bunch of new people is worthless to answering the question of "would it be worth it to take some small raven guard or alpha legion formations to score early and gain and advantage?". Like, it'd be like I ran a poll on how many Terminator stands people have from their initial buys and then used it as a counter to "terminators last turn flip objectives to game end game scoring", as no one hit critical mass yet.

That's the crux really; it's a game strategy using the available rules to take an advantage. It's not diminished in potency because people don't like darker schemes or haven't thought about it yet. It's a GW game; there's basically no limits on strategies, even exorbitant costs.

I'm also not sure what the point is of telling me not to worry about it since we've changed the mechanics. It's a discussion on the merits of various scoring methods; you certainly posted plenty about endgame despite it not affecting you.

@tneva82 never claimed it was super duper autowin. I claimed it gives you an early advantage that's harder to play around than the second last turn deepstrike.

I also mentioned taking screens. Like screens of terminators , screens of assault marines; stuff to prevent your scoring unit from getting charged and allowing them to continue racking that lead up. An obvious thing to do really.

It's not certainly not only good in 1 list build lol, and imo is worse paired with an all tank build. The strength of taking these formations in marine lists is that you can get them really cheap at no penalty and can slot into many builds. It's also funny that you're strawmanning crabz' list...when it hasn't won. And also ignoring his many stands of veltaris and ogryns, but whatever.

@wesribestie again. What astartes infantry can charge past midfield objectives on turn 1? There's a 14" no man's land and only assaults can reach the objective with 14"; the rest is 10". What goes past the 14" mark on charge orders?

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:

 Skimask Mohawk wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
T

Infiltrate is a fringe case, 2/18 Legions can do it, 16/18 can't and SA can't. Some units coming later are likely to have it organic but those are not tough units with staying power in general.

Those 2 legions have....huge swathes of units doing it. And it also ignores the fact that you can freely mix as many legions as you have formations. You can quite literally tailor an infiltrating infantry wall to supplement any marine force; 8 tacs and 16 terminators to stand in front and screen is about 255 points with hq. If you need more screens you have plenty of room to add it. It's actually incredibly easy to incorporate into marine lists and has....no downsides to doing it.

RW Astartes case that have it do have a big opportunity, AL can only infiltrate one (1) detachment if taken as Allied Formation or three (3) if primary. That's nowhere near "huge swathes".

I would say only 1/18 Legions have a major opportunity to infiltrate. Which by polls is also the least popular to paint, because its so dark in this scale.

The cases of occurance are still a minority, hence my word fringe. If you feel it's not a minor thing in your player base, ok. If many in your group plays RW or Pioneer Formations, fair.

Regarding fringe or not. I like to base my arguments on some kind of argumentation or data instead of just expressing a strong opinion. In this case, I used the data available. Polls here and on FB indicate about 80% players do Astartes, 20 SA. Of those 80%, 0-1 do RW, ~5% do AL. If you think thats indicating non fringe in general, well what argument or data do you base that on?

Small data set but an indication. Another is the total lack of RW paint posts in either FB group. They might all be slow or non sharing, but is it likely see bout to see a sudden RW explosion, all in the name of Infiltrate exploitation to progressive scoring? Since there are so many other ways of taking objectives early I can't see it like you do. Anyway see last paragraph, it wont be occuring for you.

Very few players aim to paint small black models in general, DA and IH slightly less impopular, but how many will do it just to get Infiltrate?

Allied Formations also dont seem popular at all, yet.

You two are probably talking from the competitive/tournament perspective though. There I too believe gaming for advantage rather than rule of cool will be popular. But other Legions bring very strong Traits too. I think you'll find there are way more popular power gaming builds than RW.

I for one think RW are super cool and it would be a shame to try to forbid as many builds as possible.

Anyway your friend/friend of opinion is already talking about both not allowing mixing different Astartes Legions and only having end game scoring to avoid this. So it wont be occuring for you if attending those events.

For the rest of us, its interesting tactical variation like many other varied strategies.

If one wants to forbid forward deployment, the logical extension would also be to forbid any type of assymetric arrival e.g deep strike. Both affect objective scoring opportunity. But the more you forbid, the less LI Out of the book remains.

Now now @ C, your gut reflex troll jabs like throwing in Pacman just reduce likelihood of being taken seriously vs staying on subject like the rest of your post. Meant seriously as a word of advice if you want people to take your other content seriously. It's a discussion forum for mostly adults. Internet discussion isn't that different to IRL, its not about winning with insults or offense or provoking reaction. Its about understanding eachothers points, some times reaching concensus, in other times such as this just realizing other perspectives.

As you said its not about convincing you or me. I am totally fine with you wanting only End game scoring, army wide Break Point, no infiltrate, no Allied Legions or whatever other change from Core rules to make it better for how you like it. It's your game. And ours are ours. We both have a passion for the game, thats good. Like I said, enjoy the game, I think we all do, mostly.

Kindly refrain from claiming data analysis when you're not making polls to answer the specific question, have an admittedly small sample size, and use percentages instead of numbers. General "what legion are you interested in starting" to a bunch of new people is worthless to answering the question of "would it be worth it to take some small raven guard or alpha legion formations to score early and gain and advantage?". Like, it'd be like I ran a poll on how many Terminator stands people have from their initial buys and then used it as a counter to "terminators last turn flip objectives to game end game scoring", as no one hit critical mass yet.

That's the crux really; it's a game strategy using the available rules to take an advantage. It's not diminished in potency because people don't like darker schemes or haven't thought about it yet. It's a GW game; there's basically no limits on strategies, even exorbitant costs.

I'm also not sure what the point is of telling me not to worry about it since we've changed the mechanics. It's a discussion on the merits of various scoring methods; you certainly posted plenty about endgame despite it not affecting you.

@tneva82 never claimed it was super duper autowin. I claimed it gives you an early advantage that's harder to play around than the second last turn deepstrike.

..

It's not certainly not only good in 1 list build lol, and imo is worse paired with an all tank build. The strength of taking these formations in marine lists is that you can get them really cheap at no penalty and can slot into many builds. It's also funny that you're strawmanning crabz' list...when it hasn't won. And also ignoring his many stands of veltaris and ogryns, but whatever.

@wesribestie again. What astartes infantry can charge past midfield objectives on turn 1? There's a 14" no man's land and only assaults can reach the objective with 14"; the rest is 10". What goes past the 14" mark on charge orders?

Well, drawing indications from available data sets are much more indicative and reasonable than saying it is or isn't so based on no data or argument. The samples are enough to see indications. You can't tell if the responders are new comers or already existing ones as you indicate. Feel free to post relevant polls if you feel the need to dive deeper, or provide any other data or argument that you think supports your claim that RG infiltration is indeed not a minority case, or indeed an issue.

Later on once SA get their required Rapiers we'll see if the Pioneer formation is popular. With only minority printers currently having theoretical access to it it can't be common. Right now I've yet to see any SA print army contain them. Have you seen it played, at all?

As told now by numerous responses by numerous people, we don't see Infiltration as hard to counter or an "issue".

All Astartes have access to Storm Eagles & Assault marines. SE is an Assault Transport, Ass Marines can disembark during flight, charge order and get a bonus CAF vs garrisoned structures to boot. SE moves 25", Ass Marines charge 14". Thunderhawk works too.

As soon as Land Raiders drop this threat expands to most infantry. 16" ish March for LR + 10" ish charge + 10 DZ takes you to 36", well past midfield objectives unless the table is huge.

I dont see DS as an issue with end game scoring. You have a turn to get rid of them, same as Infiltating enemies Turn 1.

I dont want to restrain any available core tactic or play style, or any scenario type. I recommend waiting until both sides have Core transports before judging.

As said in my other post, just slightly modify scenario to remove the Turn 1 scoring if this is a worry.



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Any Rhino mounted inf can also contest double Rhino move + March move. That's a lot of tactcal strength that goes far turn 1.

Soon SA have similar abilities.

 westiebestie wrote:


Well, drawing indications from available data sets are much more indicative and reasonable than saying it is or isn't so based on no data or argument. The samples are enough to see indications. You can't tell if the responders are new comers or already existing ones as you indicate. Feel free to post relevant polls if you feel the need to dive deeper, or provide any other data or argument that you think supports your claim that RG infiltration is indeed not a minority case, or indeed an issue.

My claim is that it's incredibly easy to add Raven Guard or Alphas on to pre-existing forces. My next claim was that polling using "data" with no numbers is disingenuous. The third claim was that taking a get hype poll to make an argument for strategy viability is incongruous; should I claim any legion tech is unlikely because nothing broke 9% of votes? Just never worry about getting charged by world eater assault infantry because they only got 4% of votes at 25 people.

Later on once SA get their required Rapiers we'll see if the Pioneer formation is popular. With only minority printers currently having theoretical access to it it can't be common. Right now I've yet to see any SA print army contain them. Have you seen it played, at all?

I'll let you know after our next game since yes, we have SA rapiers. And why wouldn't it be popular, especially right now? It's the only source for barrage from the SA faction and is the higher scaling between them and marines (who also have a ton of competing choices for the support slot). You also get the very useful veltaris, and another source of super-valuable HQ aura. Plus infiltrate and forward deploy for tanks. It's 150 minimum and is the better formation to dump detachments into for SA simply because they get benefits as opposed to...none.

As told now by numerous responses by numerous people, we don't see Infiltration as hard to counter or an "issue".

Ya but you guys also just ignored half of what I wrote re: screens in and out of detachment, ease of implementation in list, tempo in a scoring system known to prompt snowballing, etc... Almost like you didn't really read what I was saying or something.

All Astartes have access to Storm Eagles & Assault marines. SE is an Assault Transport, Ass Marines can disembark during flight, charge order and get a bonus CAF vs garrisoned structures to boot. SE moves 25", Ass Marines charge 14". Thunderhawk works too.

Got me there on the storm eagles and thunderhawks. But I'll point out that 200 points in storm eagles to carry 30 points of 4 ASM loses to that single Alpha Legion 13 model brick of a detachment that was ~155 and had 2-8 ASM. That's also ignoring that the storm eagles need to pray they don't get overwatched pre-disembark (as in, as soon as they enter range) as that 1 wound and a 3+ base doesn't do much. I'll also point out the irony of using the unavailable storm eagle as a counter-example, after all this talk about niche/minority. It's a strategy that lets you have a chance of breaking their early scoring, but it just costs way more and is at the mercy of a few factors (terrain for placement, detachment comp for either just out-fighting the maximum of 4 ASM getting out of the Eagles per formation or for blowing them up, enemy orders, etc...). So it's kind a less efficient strategy. And only works on one objective per formation unless you run the Air one.

As soon as Land Raiders drop this threat expands to most infantry. 16" ish March for LR + 10" ish charge + 10 DZ takes you to 36", well past midfield objectives unless the table is huge.

As soon as the venators and tanks with shock pulse drop it cuts it all in half. So does access to currently available quake blasts. But most importantly, you can't drive over intervening enemy models lol. That's the entire point of taking screening units; you put them in front of your scoring ones to prevent them from getting charged. Also, that whole thing about tempo and point investment efficiency

Storm Eagles I think are both expensive and will be restricted to flanks, and likely need an interceptor escort initially to try and splat some air defences.

flank simply to limit what can fire at them, ideally you want woods or similar for them to race up behind then drop down into hover mode, largely out of sight.

and even then you prey to the dice gods about overwatch not splatting them as they move up.

I looked at my currently typical marine formation, needs 400 points of storm eagles to jump it all forwards.. ouch