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That refreshing feel when you swap to an MEQ dex...

 Selym wrote:
That refreshing feel when you swap to an MEQ dex...

Its rather sad really, especially when you have to leave your tanks behind...

What about making the Vanquisher strength D? It will be able to kill tanks and MC's then.

Why not make everything strength D?

The answer is the same for mine and your question.

The answer to power creep isn't more power creep. Just make the unit functional, not necessarily on the same or above the power level of [commonly considered overpowered unit]. Vanqs need two things; the ability to reliably hit something, and the ability to reliably deal damage once it hits.

The first is simple. Co-ax weapons as per ABG from FW, and/or the ability to have BS4 tanks through tank commanders, HQ tanks, commissar tanks, etc..

The second is less simple, but still manageable. Vanqs vs. vehicles is reasonable in that it will generally pen, but AP2 hurts the ability to reliably put the vehicle out to pasture. Bumping that to AP1 would do the trick nicely. Finally, its ability to deal with MCs isn't great, so adding the Beast Hunter shells from ABG would solve that problem nicely.

What are Beast Hunter shells?

 vipoid wrote:
What are Beast Hunter shells?

Special shells for the Vanquisher Battle Cannon that cause Instant Death and I think they also have Fleshbane (and are AP2 of course). They can one-shot any MC no problem.

 vipoid wrote:
What are Beast Hunter shells?

Beast Hunter shells are a small blast Instant Death weapon from FW IA book 1 volume 2

Making the Vanquisher AP0 like Fire Dragons would be best

 vipoid wrote:
What are Beast Hunter shells?

Allows you to fire an alternate shell from a Vanquisher that's Range: 72", S8, AP2, Blast, Instant Death as a 15pt upgrade. Only Company Command and Commisaar Tanks in the Armoured Battle Group list can take them though.

 master of ordinance wrote:


Making the Vanquisher AP0 like Fire Dragons would be best

Loathe as I am to use formations as some sort of balancing mechanic, I'd only really approve of AP0 if you took three Vanqs and/or you were shooting at GCs/Superheavies.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Beast Hunter shells are a small blast Instant Death weapon from FW IA book 1 volume 2

Making the Vanquisher AP0 like Fire Dragons would be best

 AtoMaki wrote:


Special shells for the Vanquisher Battle Cannon that cause Instant Death and I think they also have Fleshbane (and are AP2 of course). They can one-shot any MC no problem.

Ah, thanks guys.

Cutting the price for Baneblades in half, would be a good start. That would make us feared.

 triplegrim wrote:
Cutting the price for Baneblades in half, would be a good start. That would make us feared.

I'd take a Hellhammer at 350 points, with 1 pair of sponsons. Seems about right

How about making IG good without people being forced to buy FW units. Wouldn't that be good. New players wouldn't have to start with buying recasts.

How about making IG good with less than £500 worth of stuff on the table. Then new players wouldn't have to bankrupt themselves.

Makumba wrote:
How about making IG good without people being forced to buy FW units. Wouldn't that be good. New players wouldn't have to start with buying recasts.

Most "new players" won't be buying FW stuff.

And really, what FW units are absolutely necessary that you feel justified in NEEDING to buy recasts?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Makumba wrote:
How about making IG good without people being forced to buy FW units. Wouldn't that be good. New players wouldn't have to start with buying recasts.

Most "new players" won't be buying FW stuff.

And really, what FW units are absolutely necessary that you feel justified in NEEDING to buy recasts?

The Baneblade variant upgrades and DKoK. Eye candy etc.

 Selym wrote:
How about making IG good with less than £500 worth of stuff on the table. Then new players wouldn't have to bankrupt themselves.

You understand that this would invalidate GW's entire marketing strategy, right?

 vipoid wrote:

 Selym wrote:
How about making IG good with less than £500 worth of stuff on the table. Then new players wouldn't have to bankrupt themselves.

You understand that this would invalidate GW's entire marketing strategy, right?

One can hope.

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Makumba wrote:
How about making IG good without people being forced to buy FW units. Wouldn't that be good. New players wouldn't have to start with buying recasts.

Most "new players" won't be buying FW stuff.

And really, what FW units are absolutely necessary that you feel justified in NEEDING to buy recasts?

The Baneblade variant upgrades and DKoK. Eye candy etc.

How about making the Baneblade variants cheaper (as in around 260 points - that new Tau dickery monster is only 360 and it can fire all its guns twice if it does not move) and making the model itself cheaper. Also just make our units better.

How would you guys feel about making hellguns (or hotshot lasguns *shudder*) 24"?

Also don't some meta's tourneys ban superheavies and the like? I don't really think they need SH's in the core dex.... I would be interested seeing more FW flyers in the core dex though. Maybe some of the Non-SH FW vehicle?

Hellguns at 24" would be better, but still gak. Really, if you're going to use that sort of thing, it should be a strength 5-6 weapon.

I've wanted hellguns to to be 24" for awhile, the 18" currently just has them too close to things for me to be in any way comfortable.

We need something that's subtle and yet suits the fluff of the Imperial Guard.

I suggest that every squad, no matter which one; Heavy Weapons, Veterans, Special Weapons etc. etc. Can take a medipack as an upgrade.

Atm the Orks have better medical care! They throw a painboy in a bunch of boyz and those guys are cared for more than ours!

 Otto Weston wrote:
We need something that's subtle and yet suits the fluff of the Imperial Guard.

I suggest that every squad, no matter which one; Heavy Weapons, Veterans, Special Weapons etc. etc. Can take a medipack as an upgrade.

Atm the Orks have better medical care! They throw a painboy in a bunch of boyz and those guys are cared for more than ours!

Add that to the "everyone gets +1 to cover" rule I invented a while ago, and the IG would be back on par with other armies for durability. At least, on the troopers...

 Selym wrote:
Hellguns at 24" would be better, but still gak. Really, if you're going to use that sort of thing, it should be a strength 5-6 weapon.

Tbh I would be happy with them being S4..... they're not suppose to be capable of wiping MEQ squads out, more to be better than lasguns doing so.

 Selym wrote:
Hellguns at 24" would be better, but still gak. Really, if you're going to use that sort of thing, it should be a strength 5-6 weapon.

Hrrmh...

Hellguns--24" S4 AP3 Assault 4

Couple that with a special rule/doctrine called "Schola Progenium Training":

A unit with this special rule firing a Hellgun can opt to shut off the safety regulators on their Hellgun's power pack during their Shooting Phase. Until their next Shooting Phase, the Hellgun fires with the following profile:

Overcharged Hellgun--24" S7 AP2 Assault 4, Gets Hot

Bonus? It lets us bring Hellguns back as an option for Hardened Veteran Squads with the Grenadier option, but no Schola Progenium Training--meaning pocket Stormtroopers with a S4 AP3 Assault 4 weapon, but no Overcharge.

Scion Platoons get a VERY distinct upping of their firepower while I get to use my Kasrkin Squads as Hardened Veterans again! Everyone(and by everyone, I mean me) wins!


Additionally I've been having more of a think about Sergeants and Officers, and I've come to the conclusion that they need to be able to purchase Special Weapons for themselves, and that Sergeants/Veteran Sergeants should start with Lasrifle, CCW, Laspistol.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Hellguns at 24" would be better, but still gak. Really, if you're going to use that sort of thing, it should be a strength 5-6 weapon.

Hrrmh...

Hellguns--24" S4 AP3 Assault 4

Couple that with a special rule/doctrine called "Schola Progenium Training":

A unit with this special rule firing a Hellgun can opt to shut off the safety regulators on their Hellgun's power pack during their Shooting Phase. Until their next Shooting Phase, the Hellgun fires with the following profile:

Overcharged Hellgun--24" S7 AP2 Assault 4, Gets Hot

Bonus? It lets us bring Hellguns back as an option for Hardened Veteran Squads with the Grenadier option, but no Schola Progenium Training--meaning pocket Stormtroopers with a S4 AP3 Assault 4 weapon, but no Overcharge.

Scion Platoons get a VERY distinct upping of their firepower while I get to use my Kasrkin Squads as Hardened Veterans again! Everyone(and by everyone, I mean me) wins!


Additionally I've been having more of a think about Sergeants and Officers, and I've come to the conclusion that they need to be able to purchase Special Weapons for themselves, and that Sergeants/Veteran Sergeants should start with Lasrifle, CCW, Laspistol.

Provided the Storm Troopers stayed at 14 PPM this would actually make me think about taking them again

They're not 14ppm.... there is a 10pt Sgt tax in each squad.

Also the idea of throwing out ~40 BS4 plasma shots at 24", in one 130pt squad, is absolutely ridiculous.

You're all terrible people lol

Yeah that "Schola Progenium Training" rule is a tad OTT... Maybe make it get hot on a 1-2 and unable to fire the next turn?

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Yeah that "Schola Progenium Training" rule is a tad OTT... Maybe make it get hot on a 1-2 and unable to fire the next turn?

For the points you pay on Scions compared to a Veteran?

They kinda need something "OTT".
A Scion is fully twice the points of a Veteran gaining nothing but Carapace Armor, Hellguns, Krak Grenades, Deep Strike, and Move Through Cover--and a Scion Squad is starting off with half the size of a Veteran Squad for 10 more points before adding in anything more.

Realistically, a Scion Squad should be 10 models for 70 points. They overpriced the heck out of their Hellguns, their Carapace Armor, and the skills DS/MTC.
Instead this is the comparison right now:
10 man Veteran Squad with Carapace Armor and Krak Grenades? 85 points.
We can throw in Demolitions to give the whole squad Melta Bombs and one guy gets a Demo Charge in addition to whatever else he's carrying(like...Meltaguns, maybe?) and bring that squad up to 115 points.

10 man Scion Squad:
130 points.
That's a 15 point difference for Deep Strike and Move Through Cover.

At this juncture? We might as well just remove Deep Strike as a special rule and tie it to purchasing the squad a Valkyrie as a Dedicated Transport.

And sure, it's crazy for 40 BS4 plasma shots at 24"...but it's 40 BS4 plasma shots on a unit that has no access to FNP and are 1W models. If you roll badly, oh man are you in for the worst moment of your game.

You lose an average of 3 models, wiseguy