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sturguard wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:

Rasko wrote:
Sigh. What were GW thinking. ARHGGGG!

Why didn't they bring the dreadnoughts in line with the SM's. I don't understand. We have the best CC dreadnought in the game with the axe/shield and it is barely playable with 2 measly attacks. But the SM dreadnought attacks 4 times... Seriously, what the hell?

Isn't the whole idea of swapping a second close combat weapon for a shield exactly that?

To have less attacks? I am not quite sure what you are inferring. A normal SM dread has a gun, 4 attacks and doesnt need to be upgraded to venerable status so is fairly cheap around 100 pts. The Axe/Shield dread costs 145 as you have to upgrade it to venerable before you can spend the 25 pts to take the axe/shield- its really a shame. It would have been more playable if it at least got 3 attacks as they classified both the axe and shield as a specialist weapon and then not had you upgrade to be able to take the axe/shield- so it would come in around 125.

From what I understand this isn't the "New Codex", is it? It's just a bunch of pieces and the Wulfen, so more like what IG got in the last campaign book - right? SM Dreadnoughts have 4 attacks because their (and the DA) codex got updated, and in 7th Ed Dreadnoughts are getting 4 attacks base and can form squadrons. Once there is a new SW codex I'm sure you'll get your 4 attacks.

nekooni wrote:
From what I understand this isn't the "New Codex", is it? It's just a bunch of pieces and the Wulfen, so more like what IG got in the last campaign book - right? SM Dreadnoughts have 4 attacks because their (and the DA) codex got updated, and in 7th Ed Dreadnoughts are getting 4 attacks base and can form squadrons. Once there is a new SW codex I'm sure you'll get your 4 attacks.

You're right, it's not the new codex but they updated iron priest stats. Could have done the same with dreadnoughts. Especially when they added Ancients of the Fang... which is hilariously ironic since it is a dreadnought vehicle squadron with a re-roll to hit in CC bonus while 3 or more is alive.

After seeing the new Wulfen's Pack Leader, I had the thought that you could remove the rock and skulls he's standing on, replace it with a banana peel, and he wouldn't look any less silly.

Haven't seen this posted yet (from Space Wolves fb page):

Rasko wrote:

nekooni wrote:
From what I understand this isn't the "New Codex", is it? It's just a bunch of pieces and the Wulfen, so more like what IG got in the last campaign book - right? SM Dreadnoughts have 4 attacks because their (and the DA) codex got updated, and in 7th Ed Dreadnoughts are getting 4 attacks base and can form squadrons. Once there is a new SW codex I'm sure you'll get your 4 attacks.

You're right, it's not the new codex but they updated iron priest stats. Could have done the same with dreadnoughts. Especially when they added Ancients of the Fang... which is hilariously ironic since it is a dreadnought vehicle squadron with a re-roll to hit in CC bonus while 3 or more is alive.

I don't think we know yet with 100% certainty that SW Dreads are being 'forgotten' about and left at the old stats.

Besides, even if the campaign book doesn't update them, odds are that SW's are getting a physical re-print of their codex like Tau got with their two-part campaign release. There's still a chance for SW Dreads to get updated, which is a lot more than can be said for us poor Daemons.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Rasko wrote:

nekooni wrote:
From what I understand this isn't the "New Codex", is it? It's just a bunch of pieces and the Wulfen, so more like what IG got in the last campaign book - right? SM Dreadnoughts have 4 attacks because their (and the DA) codex got updated, and in 7th Ed Dreadnoughts are getting 4 attacks base and can form squadrons. Once there is a new SW codex I'm sure you'll get your 4 attacks.

You're right, it's not the new codex but they updated iron priest stats. Could have done the same with dreadnoughts. Especially when they added Ancients of the Fang... which is hilariously ironic since it is a dreadnought vehicle squadron with a re-roll to hit in CC bonus while 3 or more is alive.

I don't think we know yet with 100% certainty that SW Dreads are being 'forgotten' about and left at the old stats.

Besides, even if the campaign book doesn't update them, odds are that SW's are getting a physical re-print of their codex like Tau got with their two-part campaign release. There's still a chance for SW Dreads to get updated, which is a lot more than can be said for us poor Daemons.

The SW are getting a new codex, it's been up on the Black Library site all day (Codex:Space Wolves Curse of the Wulfen Edition). This is separate from the campaign book.

One major item from that codex is that Blood Claws are not getting the SM scout treatment. The preview on iTunes still has them at WS/BS 3.

beir wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Rasko wrote:

nekooni wrote:
From what I understand this isn't the "New Codex", is it? It's just a bunch of pieces and the Wulfen, so more like what IG got in the last campaign book - right? SM Dreadnoughts have 4 attacks because their (and the DA) codex got updated, and in 7th Ed Dreadnoughts are getting 4 attacks base and can form squadrons. Once there is a new SW codex I'm sure you'll get your 4 attacks.

You're right, it's not the new codex but they updated iron priest stats. Could have done the same with dreadnoughts. Especially when they added Ancients of the Fang... which is hilariously ironic since it is a dreadnought vehicle squadron with a re-roll to hit in CC bonus while 3 or more is alive.

I don't think we know yet with 100% certainty that SW Dreads are being 'forgotten' about and left at the old stats.

Besides, even if the campaign book doesn't update them, odds are that SW's are getting a physical re-print of their codex like Tau got with their two-part campaign release. There's still a chance for SW Dreads to get updated, which is a lot more than can be said for us poor Daemons.

The SW are getting a new codex, it's been up on the Black Library site all day (Codex:Space Wolves Curse of the Wulfen Edition). This is separate from the campaign book.

One major item from that codex is that Blood Claws are not getting the SM scout treatment. The preview on iTunes still has them at WS/BS 3.

While WS4 would make sense, BS4 makes no sense for Blood Claws. Space Wolves don't extensively train their recruits in the use of firearms like other Chapters do - they literally just implant & hypno-educate their recruits.

But then, WS3 isn't the end of the world for Claws, since they do get Rage for added attacks on the charge and can gain larger squads than normal. Their 3+ also lets them survive retaliations better than basic Scouts too.

This is more a fluff thing
Our Scouts are Veterans while others are recruits in training.

Now the other recruits have the same veteran skills like a full trained Space Marine while our recruits have the same stats llike a common guard soldier.

PS:
Of course, in my opinion the main problem is that full grown SM should have 5's instead of 4's as basic values. Than there would be a difference between an superhuman genetic raised killer machine and a guard soldier who can shoot a little bit better.

I just realized with some irony that I am sitting here brain-storming lists for SW that look suspiciously like my Gray Knights lists... super elite, and low model/unit count. Perhaps the worse realization is SW will do it far more successfully.

Three well-geared 5-man Wulfen in a Murderpack, and three MSU but decently geared TWC units have a 50/50 shot on turn one of charging almost anything with impunity. Problem is of course that that leaves 550pts at 1850pts, for a Wolf Lord and required Elites if i'm running this as Company of the Great Wolf.

I'm pretty sure it'll be terrible... so of course I just gave GW $$$ for three boxes of those damn Wulfen to try it. :-p

 kodos wrote:
This is more a fluff thing
Our Scouts are Veterans while others are recruits in training.

Now the other recruits have the same veteran skills like a full trained Space Marine while our recruits have the same stats llike a common guard soldier.

PS:
Of course, in my opinion the main problem is that full grown SM should have 5's instead of 4's as basic values. Than there would be a difference between an superhuman genetic raised killer machine and a guard soldier who can shoot a little bit better.

And, of course, the real culprit here is the D6 based system. Bring on D20s! (Not sure if I'm joking here).

 bubber wrote:
Haven't seen this posted yet (from Space Wolves fb page):

Is it possible to change the heads - Ulrik wearing his helm while holding the old man's head in his hand?

How many of these Campaign book bundles have they released now? This is the first one I've had any interest in, and looking at it I'm strongly reminded of the last batch of WFB books. The price is the same as well. Hmm...

Experiment 626 wrote:

beir wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Rasko wrote:

nekooni wrote:
From what I understand this isn't the "New Codex", is it? It's just a bunch of pieces and the Wulfen, so more like what IG got in the last campaign book - right? SM Dreadnoughts have 4 attacks because their (and the DA) codex got updated, and in 7th Ed Dreadnoughts are getting 4 attacks base and can form squadrons. Once there is a new SW codex I'm sure you'll get your 4 attacks.

You're right, it's not the new codex but they updated iron priest stats. Could have done the same with dreadnoughts. Especially when they added Ancients of the Fang... which is hilariously ironic since it is a dreadnought vehicle squadron with a re-roll to hit in CC bonus while 3 or more is alive.

I don't think we know yet with 100% certainty that SW Dreads are being 'forgotten' about and left at the old stats.

Besides, even if the campaign book doesn't update them, odds are that SW's are getting a physical re-print of their codex like Tau got with their two-part campaign release. There's still a chance for SW Dreads to get updated, which is a lot more than can be said for us poor Daemons.

The SW are getting a new codex, it's been up on the Black Library site all day (Codex:Space Wolves Curse of the Wulfen Edition). This is separate from the campaign book.

One major item from that codex is that Blood Claws are not getting the SM scout treatment. The preview on iTunes still has them at WS/BS 3.

While WS4 would make sense, BS4 makes no sense for Blood Claws. Space Wolves don't extensively train their recruits in the use of firearms like other Chapters do - they literally just implant & hypno-educate their recruits.

But then, WS3 isn't the end of the world for Claws, since they do get Rage for added attacks on the charge and can gain larger squads than normal. Their 3+ also lets them survive retaliations better than basic Scouts too.

What Black Library book are you pulling that Blood Claw info from? I have read them all and in several instances they refer to the rigorous training that takes place to become a Grey Hunter- ie what you do as a Blood Claw. In fact one of the books describes a team of Grey Hunters training some Blood Claw recruits. The reason Blood Claws have BS3 is just GWs way of reflecting that they are headstrong and don't have much restraint from charging into battle. There are instances of space marines of all flavors having this issue, however, besides Black Templars, Space Wolves were the only faction to have 2 types of marine entries, so they had to (from a gaming perspective) distinguish them. Honestly the WS3/BS3 thing is fine, however, they should be able to take 2 assault weapons, flamers at least. No one would ever put a plasma pistol on them with BS3, pfist is way too expensive for 25 pts, especially in later rounds where you get 1 attack at WS3- it doesnt really matter if they made then 12 or 10 pts, there isnt much they can do besides just hop on an objective in their current state (unless the stars align and they somehow make it into combat with a full squad intact and get the charge- which is a ton of ifs).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 bubber wrote:
Haven't seen this posted yet (from Space Wolves fb page):

Is it possible to change the heads - Ulrik wearing his helm while holding the old man's head in his hand?

Who in the world would pay 25 points for a Helfrost pistol?

Now if we could get a generic Techmarine that looks as good as this one. I really like the Gravity hammer he is carrying

Some good shots in this vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_dX8Kc30_s

Not sure if this has come up already. Tried searching the thread and didn't see anything. Did they screw up again by making the transfers for Logan Grimnar's great company black instead of white? Ordered this and didn't notice until after. Kinda pissed.

I'm actually now interested in the fluff for this campaign, seeing as we have the rules for the most part.

 Saelan wrote:
Not sure if this has come up already. Tried searching the thread and didn't see anything. Did they screw up again by making the transfers for Logan Grimnar's great company black instead of white? Ordered this and didn't notice until after. Kinda pissed.

Yes they did. I have the limited edition ones with the white great company symbol. Better hold on to them in case I fold and get more space wolves.

sturguard wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

beir wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Rasko wrote:

nekooni wrote:
From what I understand this isn't the "New Codex", is it? It's just a bunch of pieces and the Wulfen, so more like what IG got in the last campaign book - right? SM Dreadnoughts have 4 attacks because their (and the DA) codex got updated, and in 7th Ed Dreadnoughts are getting 4 attacks base and can form squadrons. Once there is a new SW codex I'm sure you'll get your 4 attacks.

You're right, it's not the new codex but they updated iron priest stats. Could have done the same with dreadnoughts. Especially when they added Ancients of the Fang... which is hilariously ironic since it is a dreadnought vehicle squadron with a re-roll to hit in CC bonus while 3 or more is alive.

I don't think we know yet with 100% certainty that SW Dreads are being 'forgotten' about and left at the old stats.

Besides, even if the campaign book doesn't update them, odds are that SW's are getting a physical re-print of their codex like Tau got with their two-part campaign release. There's still a chance for SW Dreads to get updated, which is a lot more than can be said for us poor Daemons.

The SW are getting a new codex, it's been up on the Black Library site all day (Codex:Space Wolves Curse of the Wulfen Edition). This is separate from the campaign book.

One major item from that codex is that Blood Claws are not getting the SM scout treatment. The preview on iTunes still has them at WS/BS 3.

While WS4 would make sense, BS4 makes no sense for Blood Claws. Space Wolves don't extensively train their recruits in the use of firearms like other Chapters do - they literally just implant & hypno-educate their recruits.

But then, WS3 isn't the end of the world for Claws, since they do get Rage for added attacks on the charge and can gain larger squads than normal. Their 3+ also lets them survive retaliations better than basic Scouts too.

What Black Library book are you pulling that Blood Claw info from? I have read them all and in several instances they refer to the rigorous training that takes place to become a Grey Hunter- ie what you do as a Blood Claw. In fact one of the books describes a team of Grey Hunters training some Blood Claw recruits. The reason Blood Claws have BS3 is just GWs way of reflecting that they are headstrong and don't have much restraint from charging into battle. There are instances of space marines of all flavors having this issue, however, besides Black Templars, Space Wolves were the only faction to have 2 types of marine entries, so they had to (from a gaming perspective) distinguish them. Honestly the WS3/BS3 thing is fine, however, they should be able to take 2 assault weapons, flamers at least. No one would ever put a plasma pistol on them with BS3, pfist is way too expensive for 25 pts, especially in later rounds where you get 1 attack at WS3- it doesnt really matter if they made then 12 or 10 pts, there isnt much they can do besides just hop on an objective in their current state (unless the stars align and they somehow make it into combat with a full squad intact and get the charge- which is a ton of ifs).

Honestly I see where you're coming from, but the main gripe now is our wolf scouts are an elites slot compared to other SM armies with absolutely nothing to gain besides different equipment now that all SM scouts are ws/bs 4. The blood claw unit was our variant to their stat line and with the basic scouts boosted its not only a kick to our other basic troop but a bigger why bother to an elite slot. Blood claws need a boost of some kind definitely but it's an unlikely thing.

As for tactics and points discussion this isn't really the thread.

sturguard wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dryaktylus wrote:

 bubber wrote:
Haven't seen this posted yet (from Space Wolves fb page):

Is it possible to change the heads - Ulrik wearing his helm while holding the old man's head in his hand?

Who in the world would pay 25 points for a Helfrost pistol?

The pistol is 20pts for a str 8 ap 1 shot that can wipe eternal warrior's and MC/GC on an opponents unlucky roll. You can upgrade the thunderhammer to a helfrost variant for 5pts

I understand what helfrost does, but at that expense and the fact that if the Iron Priest is on a thunderwolf he generally wont be shooting much it is too costly.

sturguard wrote:
I understand what helfrost does, but at that expense and the fact that if the Iron Priest is on a thunderwolf he generally wont be shooting much it is too costly.

Yea, it is pointless. Even the tempest hammer upgrade is barely justifiable. Anything you want helfrost against has S5-6 already :"(.

Sometimes it comes into play. I've lost a lot of Thunderwolves to the black mace (uses toughness tests). It's a one in 6.

Its a 1 in 6 on something you might use 2-3 times- but you also only have 1 shot at a time and you have to roll to hit and wound with those 2-3 total attacks. If you use it twice, you hit/wound 1 time and then .16% of the time your opponent fails. You use the black mace in melee and you have more than 1-2 attacks- it is infinitely more useful and probable.

Furthermore, let me ask you this in terms of game mechanics, does it make for good games. Lets say I drop in a pod, and the IP shoots your demon price and that instance that only happens about .08% of the time (Between hitting, wounding and you rolling a "6") comes up. Do you think most people are going to think that is fun? They just lost a 200 pt model to a single helfrost shot that cost 20 pts. Now on the other hand, if I buy the helfrost and spend 2 whole games not having an opponent fail a save or getting into close enough range to use it- is it worth it to me? It was like the old Jaws of the World Wolf that everyone got so angry about. Draw the line, pass the psychic test, if you fail an initiative test you are removed from play (and MCs had a -1 to their roll)- most of the time it did nothing, yeah you might kill a model here and there but nothing big, but when people lost their expensive model the spell was broken, cheesy and OP- once again, bad gaming mechanic.

sturguard wrote:
Its a 1 in 6 on something you might use 2-3 times- but you also only have 1 shot at a time and you have to roll to hit and wound with those 2-3 total attacks. If you use it twice, you hit/wound 1 time and then .16% of the time your opponent fails. You use the black mace in melee and you have more than 1-2 attacks- it is infinitely more useful and probable.

Furthermore, let me ask you this in terms of game mechanics, does it make for good games. Lets say I drop in a pod, and the IP shoots your demon price and that instance that only happens about .08% of the time (Between hitting, wounding and you rolling a "6") comes up. Do you think most people are going to think that is fun? They just lost a 200 pt model to a single helfrost shot that cost 20 pts. Now on the other hand, if I buy the helfrost and spend 2 whole games not having an opponent fail a save or getting into close enough range to use it- is it worth it to me? It was like the old Jaws of the World Wolf that everyone got so angry about. Draw the line, pass the psychic test, if you fail an initiative test you are removed from play (and MCs had a -1 to their roll)- most of the time it did nothing, yeah you might kill a model here and there but nothing big, but when people lost their expensive model the spell was broken, cheesy and OP- once again, bad gaming mechanic.

You can argue the same for D weapons outside of Apoc games.... Cheesy broken mechanics.

Or FW making models with rules which can give an army a massive edge on the field.

Its what GW do.

And personally, if my Hellfrost takes out a demon prince with one shot, great! I dont really care that my opponent didnt get to wipe out half my army with him. I am so sorry that its not that "fun" for him, but is it fun for anyone taking models off the table? Oh, my LR was 250 points and someone popped it with 1 melta shot and killed all the wulfen inside. Can I go home and cry now?

 Garrlor wrote:
I am so sorry that its not that "fun" for him, but is it fun for anyone taking models off the table?

It's certainly less fun when it's a significant portion of your army being lost to an unlucky 6. And that's the whole point of the discussion, bad game mechanics which lead to un-fun situations.

Oh, my LR was 250 points and someone popped it with 1 melta shot and killed all the wulfen inside. Can I go home and cry now?

Firstly, don't be silly, no one is talking about crying, we're talking about bad game mechanics. Secondly, err, yeah, people talk about the vehicle damage table being bad game mechanics as well. So your argument is "this other rule is daft, so other daft rules are fine".

 Garrlor wrote:

sturguard wrote:
Its a 1 in 6 on something you might use 2-3 times- but you also only have 1 shot at a time and you have to roll to hit and wound with those 2-3 total attacks. If you use it twice, you hit/wound 1 time and then .16% of the time your opponent fails. You use the black mace in melee and you have more than 1-2 attacks- it is infinitely more useful and probable.

Furthermore, let me ask you this in terms of game mechanics, does it make for good games. Lets say I drop in a pod, and the IP shoots your demon price and that instance that only happens about .08% of the time (Between hitting, wounding and you rolling a "6") comes up. Do you think most people are going to think that is fun? They just lost a 200 pt model to a single helfrost shot that cost 20 pts. Now on the other hand, if I buy the helfrost and spend 2 whole games not having an opponent fail a save or getting into close enough range to use it- is it worth it to me? It was like the old Jaws of the World Wolf that everyone got so angry about. Draw the line, pass the psychic test, if you fail an initiative test you are removed from play (and MCs had a -1 to their roll)- most of the time it did nothing, yeah you might kill a model here and there but nothing big, but when people lost their expensive model the spell was broken, cheesy and OP- once again, bad gaming mechanic.

You can argue the same for D weapons outside of Apoc games.... Cheesy broken mechanics.

Or FW making models with rules which can give an army a massive edge on the field.

Its what GW do.

And personally, if my Hellfrost takes out a demon prince with one shot, great! I dont really care that my opponent didnt get to wipe out half my army with him. I am so sorry that its not that "fun" for him, but is it fun for anyone taking models off the table? Oh, my LR was 250 points and someone popped it with 1 melta shot and killed all the wulfen inside. Can I go home and cry now?

I will reinforce what AllSeeing Skink pointed out- no one is crying, but rather just pointing out bad mechanics by GW and they get away with it because alot of the players are all too happy to buy 3 Riptides and 2 Stormsurges, or whole armies of Knight etc which just lead to games being decided by turn 3. My opinion, leave the hellfrost at home, Ill take the 20 pts and add another body on the ground or give something else a storm shield. I don't like banking on 1/12 odds or whatever it is to activate a gimmick.

sturguard wrote:

 Garrlor wrote:

sturguard wrote:
Its a 1 in 6 on something you might use 2-3 times- but you also only have 1 shot at a time and you have to roll to hit and wound with those 2-3 total attacks. If you use it twice, you hit/wound 1 time and then .16% of the time your opponent fails. You use the black mace in melee and you have more than 1-2 attacks- it is infinitely more useful and probable.

Furthermore, let me ask you this in terms of game mechanics, does it make for good games. Lets say I drop in a pod, and the IP shoots your demon price and that instance that only happens about .08% of the time (Between hitting, wounding and you rolling a "6") comes up. Do you think most people are going to think that is fun? They just lost a 200 pt model to a single helfrost shot that cost 20 pts. Now on the other hand, if I buy the helfrost and spend 2 whole games not having an opponent fail a save or getting into close enough range to use it- is it worth it to me? It was like the old Jaws of the World Wolf that everyone got so angry about. Draw the line, pass the psychic test, if you fail an initiative test you are removed from play (and MCs had a -1 to their roll)- most of the time it did nothing, yeah you might kill a model here and there but nothing big, but when people lost their expensive model the spell was broken, cheesy and OP- once again, bad gaming mechanic.

You can argue the same for D weapons outside of Apoc games.... Cheesy broken mechanics.

Or FW making models with rules which can give an army a massive edge on the field.

Its what GW do.

And personally, if my Hellfrost takes out a demon prince with one shot, great! I dont really care that my opponent didnt get to wipe oTut half my army with him. I am so sorry that its not that "fun" for him, but is it fun for anyone taking models off the table? Oh, my LR was 250 points and someone popped it with 1 melta shot and killed all the wulfen inside. Can I go home and cry now?

I will reinforce what AllSeeing Skink pointed out- no one is crying, but rather just pointing out bad mechanics by GW and they get away with it because alot of the players are all too happy to buy 3 Riptides and 2 Stormsurges, or whole armies of Knight etc which just lead to games being decided by turn 3. My opinion, leave the hellfrost at home, Ill take the 20 pts and add another body on the ground or give something else a storm shield. I don't like banking on 1/12 odds or whatever it is to activate a gimmick.

Thats nothing. Orks have, or maybe had, a combi-rokkit gun. That was a gun that HIT once every three games. Now tell me thats worth taking. But seriously, gak happens because of die rolls in this game. I've seen 1000 points of models lost turn one to alpha strike / Ordnance barrage. How is that fun for the guy who sets up his army then removes half of it before he gets to roll a single die. Its just how 40K works and has always worked. There are sometimes when your favorite models just goes poof without doing anything and all you can do is laugh, because really, what other option is there?

If I'm taking an Iron Priest, I'm taking him for his CC ability and wolf entourage, not for the chance to shoot a frost pistol. I just hope the gun can show up in other places. Its really no more dangerous / threatening than a few other guns I can think of.

I have a question. Seeing as how this is not a new codex, can I still use the iron priest from the codex or do I have to use the new one? I would personally rather have the Priest taking up a elite slot than a extra wound.

sturguard wrote:

 Garrlor wrote:

sturguard wrote:
Its a 1 in 6 on something you might use 2-3 times- but you also only have 1 shot at a time and you have to roll to hit and wound with those 2-3 total attacks. If you use it twice, you hit/wound 1 time and then .16% of the time your opponent fails. You use the black mace in melee and you have more than 1-2 attacks- it is infinitely more useful and probable.

Furthermore, let me ask you this in terms of game mechanics, does it make for good games. Lets say I drop in a pod, and the IP shoots your demon price and that instance that only happens about .08% of the time (Between hitting, wounding and you rolling a "6") comes up. Do you think most people are going to think that is fun? They just lost a 200 pt model to a single helfrost shot that cost 20 pts. Now on the other hand, if I buy the helfrost and spend 2 whole games not having an opponent fail a save or getting into close enough range to use it- is it worth it to me? It was like the old Jaws of the World Wolf that everyone got so angry about. Draw the line, pass the psychic test, if you fail an initiative test you are removed from play (and MCs had a -1 to their roll)- most of the time it did nothing, yeah you might kill a model here and there but nothing big, but when people lost their expensive model the spell was broken, cheesy and OP- once again, bad gaming mechanic.

You can argue the same for D weapons outside of Apoc games.... Cheesy broken mechanics.

Or FW making models with rules which can give an army a massive edge on the field.

Its what GW do.

And personally, if my Hellfrost takes out a demon prince with one shot, great! I dont really care that my opponent didnt get to wipe out half my army with him. I am so sorry that its not that "fun" for him, but is it fun for anyone taking models off the table? Oh, my LR was 250 points and someone popped it with 1 melta shot and killed all the wulfen inside. Can I go home and cry now?

I will reinforce what AllSeeing Skink pointed out- no one is crying, but rather just pointing out bad mechanics by GW and they get away with it because alot of the players are all too happy to buy 3 Riptides and 2 Stormsurges, or whole armies of Knight etc which just lead to games being decided by turn 3. My opinion, leave the hellfrost at home, Ill take the 20 pts and add another body on the ground or give something else a storm shield. I don't like banking on 1/12 odds or whatever it is to activate a gimmick.

Not much to do with MC/GMC or vehicle tables or Instant Death weapons. The real problem is that GW has no clue how to balance this game. I'll still waltz over tier 3 armies with a tier 1 army because they're just that badly balanced.

Does anyonw have any list/s of all the SW things?