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I doubt we'll see another powerhouse like that. I can't tell if it's a bad thing. If Mat Ward writes a competitive book people will accuse him of using the CSM as his mary sues (not looking to debate what that means; that IS the phrase that will be used) and if he doesn't the most popular word on Dakka for the month after will be "nerf."
I dont think anyone is questioning the power of the Chaos Codex. But it is very much a mono build. 2 DP's some PlagueMarines w/melta/plasma and oblits. Hard core but thats about it.
What most complain about is there is no character and you cant make legion armies. There are no cult terminators, (a big downside for all the slaanesh players who lost their sonic weapons) nor are there dreadnought options to make it a Legion dreadnought. When you compare that to say Wolves,BAngels,Vanilla SM,or even GK who all have multiple builds which are more or less competitive.
And before you all jump on me saying thats just codex creep etc, I remember when the CHaos dex came out that one build was pretty much the only competitive build. And all the fluffy players were still complaining about the loss of Legion options. I mean 4 years later Im a little surprised we\re even having this argumenr when even the codex writer has gone on record saying they went too far removing options
I didnt have the realm of chaos books but i did have the 2nd edition book onwards. CSM had an up and down time with codexs.
2nd edition = great
3rd edition = get you by rubbish
3.5 recamp = greatand best so far
4th edition = massive step backwards wtf were they thinking >:-(
I hope the chaos legions codex will be better. The way i see it they'll either
1) make it like 3.5 which would be ok but lazy and boring
2) do a very flexible list with new choices from each legion
3) balls it all up again and make me stop collecting the hobby
If you like the sound of ghost21 sourced rumours I'd prepare yourself for disappointment. Stuff he has cribbed from someone else might have more veracity.
Hodge-Podge says: Run with the Devil, Shout Satan's Might. Deathtongue! Deathtongue! The Beast arises tonight!
GentlemanGuy wrote:Looking at this i'm hoping its not ****ed up.
I didnt have the realm of chaos books but i did have the 2nd edition book onwards. CSM had an up and down time with codexs.
2nd edition = great
3rd edition = get you by rubbish
3.5 recamp = greatand best so far
4th edition = massive step backwards wtf were they thinking >:-(
I hope the chaos legions codex will be better. The way i see it they'll either
1) make it like 3.5 which would be ok but lazy and boring
2) do a very flexible list with new choices from each legion
3) balls it all up again and make me stop collecting the hobby
I wouldn't expect anything like the 4th ed codex, considering they backed away from the strategy of streamlining everything too much. That lasted for the CSM, DA, and BAWD codices, and they stopped since the backlash was so bad. Alessio and Gav have publicly apologized for those ones.
-Loki- wrote:I'll take Wards over the top over heroic fluff any day over Cruddaces collage of fluff copy/pasted from all different editions, with his own injected in for fun, to create a non-workable mess.
And over Gav Thorpe's Phoned-In-Before-He-Left-For-Black-Library codex.
Artanis wrote:Some new plastic Oblits that aren't just blobs of incoherent flesh would be nice....
First, I'm not exactly sure how one should sculpt the ability to morph ones body...
Second, beyond desire, there really isn't any reason to believe Obliterators should or could be released in plastic. They are low model count, no option models, so unless something changes that finecast is realistically the most you should hope for.
GentlemanGuy wrote:...3.5 recamp = great and best so far...
I agree with a lot of what you said, but this specific thing ignores the short comings and all the reasons GW made the 4th ed codex the way it is. I loved it but the 3.5 book was broken by virtue of the shear volume of options that modified the core concept central to too many units in the book. It was successful because the book gave you a continuum of options to deal with every threat, thus elleviating the element of strategy in selecting your army. One example of the excessiveness between marks, veteran skills, and legion rules there were 300+ varirations on the basic troop choice in the army before selecting wargear... but that same variation existed for a number of other units. It created a continuum of options... don't like havocs, take veterans, can't take veterans take CSM... fine tune all accordingly. No other army could do this to anywhere near the same degree.
aka_mythos wrote:Second, beyond desire, there really isn't any reason to believe Obliterators should or could be released in plastic. They are low model count, no option models, so unless something changes that finecast is realistically the most you should hope for.
I give you...Terminators!
The current trend seems to be make 1 box work for 2 different things. Now, considering we've had new plastic Terminators with the last release at best we're looking at Finecast or some sort of upgrade sprue with Terminators to have a dual function Terminators/Obliterators box. Base them both on the same basic build - well, considering they have very similar stats in the first place....
aka_mythos wrote:Second, beyond desire, there really isn't any reason to believe Obliterators should or could be released in plastic. They are low model count, no option models, so unless something changes that finecast is realistically the most you should hope for.
I give you...Terminators!
The current trend seems to be make 1 box work for 2 different things. Now, considering we've had new plastic Terminators with the last release at best we're looking at Finecast or some sort of upgrade sprue with Terminators to have a dual function Terminators/Obliterators box. Base them both on the same basic build - well, considering they have very similar stats in the first place....
I can't recall any kit they've done this after it was already released. This also ignores the distinct differences in appearance between terminators and obliterators... and the proportion of the original model that would have to be replaced. I think a purely Obliterator plastic kit is far more likely than an add-on or hybrid terminator kit. The models have never done the concept justice, and I'm inclined to believe that if they're redone GW will attempt to give them a worthwhile sculpt. That can't be accomplished with add-on and hybrid kits.
GentlemanGuy wrote:...3.5 recamp = great and best so far...
I agree with a lot of what you said, but this specific thing ignores the short comings and all the reasons GW made the 4th ed codex the way it is. I loved it but the 3.5 book was broken by virtue of the shear volume of options that modified the core concept central to too many units in the book. It was successful because the book gave you a continuum of options to deal with every threat, thus elleviating the element of strategy in selecting your army. One example of the excessiveness between marks, veteran skills, and legion rules there were 300+ varirations on the basic troop choice in the army before selecting wargear... but that same variation existed for a number of other units. It created a continuum of options... don't like havocs, take veterans, can't take veterans take CSM... fine tune all accordingly. No other army could do this to anywhere near the same degree.
Wow, that does sound awfully chaotic. [/bad pun] Personally I'd love to see more codexes like that, maybe not to that extreme a lot more "Unit A does X well, option 1 will make them awesome at X, option 2 makes them slightly less effective at X but gives them some use in role Y", pretty much each unit have a set place, but having the option to put a toe outside of that.
I liked the book too, who couldn't? It was just as badly flawed from a game perspective as the 4th edition book. I think its fine that they had variations to their rules, but it was just too much. When they went to 4th, they could have fixed the book by omitting any one of those sets of options but they took more out than that.
From a game mechanic perspective, GW needs to figure out how Chaos can be "chaotic" and yet conform enough to the conventions of the game. The fact that chaos has a number of units with randomized rules that are at best good 50% of the time, but bad far more often... compounded by the fact that those units are priced as if they're alway advantageous... is an example of this sort of chaotic in un conventionally useless way. In my FLGS I'm the only person to use chaos dreadnoughts and chaos spawn, and that was largely because I built my self distructing army of Malal as a joke.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/15 13:27:29
-Loki- wrote:
Most likely Horus Aximand is going to be a special character. That was my immediate reaction.
I you haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, Horus Aximand was one of Horus's (Horus the primarch) 'mournival', an informal group of captains to advise him. He was named after Horus, and had the nickname 'Little Horus'.
He bore a striking resemblance to Horus as well. Unfortunately, he was wounded in battle according to one of the short stores and his face was ripped off (by a White Scar Captain who evaded capture/death) as he prefers to fight not wearing a helmet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/15 18:54:13
This is interesting news, both my more regular oponents will have had an update by 6th, I will need to brush my army list up.
I know Ward writes relatively good rules (if they are sometimes a little unclear, BA jump packs anyone?) It's his fluff I cant stand; He is so unsubtle it's depressing, Ba used to have a hint or veiled comment about a few vampiric tendencies now they practically wear red and black capes, have slicked back hair and swoop around transylvanian ruins crying "I Vant to suck your blood." Its all very well defending him but when it's your beloved army he's just whored out as a cheesey, OTT, mary-sue-hooker it hurts a little.
lord_blackfang wrote:For those keeping track, how is ghost's track record, anyway?
He accurately predicted the special fall release would be Warhammer Nautical themed (ie Dreadfleet). He incorrectly stated that SOB would NOT get a WD article.
His more recent Necron Rumors were a 50% hit and 50% miss. Though he stated up front he had only seen an early play test codex (2-3 test codices prior to the final print). I have rehashed these rumors in the spoiler below:
Spoiler:
Ghost 21 wrote:I probably shouldn't say this, but at least 2 of the named lords there are supposedly characters in the dex (from the names at least , though only found that out after reading FOD). At least one will get a figure (I've seen it, it had a version before but he was never released)
Hit and a miss: He was spot on with the FoD "Storm Caller" or in the codex "Imotekh the Stormlord". The next SC, which he later said was the Flayed one lord never showed up in the final codex.
Ghost21 wrote:ive heard november , ive also heard march 2012
November was correct. StickMonkey predicted a All-Hallow's Eve release prior to this. At the time, there was some debate whether this would mean October or November.
Ghost 21 wrote:not sure if its exactly a rumor but ive just been informed necrons will see the first of the resin figs
Wrong...just about everything else got finecast models before Necrons.
Ghost 21 wrote:warriors are not bieng redone there may be an aditional sprue representing upgrades, n the colours but otherwise no
Correct...well except for the different color rods...but then he did say "may".
Ghost 21 wrote:to be honest ive not heard of the jump infantry. then again i had only heard about 2 troop choices , the big necro giant , tomb spiders, some sort of necron artilery piece
There was a new jump infantry unit, though he doesn't deny thier existance completely. He is the first to mention a necron artilery piece...which may or may not have been one of the floating gun barges that made it into the second codex...too vague to know
Ghost21 wrote:ive heard of some sort of bodguard unit, but again not in the frst wave
Hit and a miss. Lychguard are what he is refering to. However, they were in the first wave.
Ghost21 wrote:i saw a copy of the draft rules for the necro giant , n all i can say is resurrection ability's with guns, and mele attacks that ignore saves
Nope...its a walker without ressurection or DCCW. Still, he does say it was draft rules and both StickMonkey and Tabitha previously stated it as being a MC. So maybe he did see a test copy where it was a MC.
Ghost21 wrote:oh and c'tan wont be in the book, it was silly to put them in the previous one i mean khorne isnt in codex chaos space marines or daemons is he?
Prior to this, there were rumors of a new specifically named C'tan like the Dragon. Ghost was the first to put this down. He was correct. There are no C'tan's in the Necron Codex...just shards.
Ghost21 wrote:remember the imperium reforge / re tool those weapons for there [assassins] to use
and i never saw a phase sword in the old necron dex, and don't think we will see one now (at least not in anything I've seen)
Correct. There are no longer any phase weapons that ignore invulnerable saves.
Ghost 21 wrote:
Anything on Wraiths ?
They are probably the "new" Flayer-like Fast Attack choice mentioned in the OP.
wraiths are not the new fast attack (there wasn't one in the version ive seen, ) but that was at least 1 or 2 before the printed dex ,(wraiths are harsh now)
Correct. There are no new fact attack choices in the Necron Codex. Wraiths, Scarabs, and destroyers are the only fast attack choices in either codex.
Ghost 21 wrote:there is a lord that makes flayed ones troops
No...there is not. BTW, this would have been the other character Ghost references as being in both the FoD and the Codex.
Ghost21 wrote:and i never saw squad leaders then again only saw squad upgrades
Correct. There in no option in the indivual units to upgrade a squad member to a squad leader. In the codex, you can split off a squad of Cryteks/Lords to lead other squads (like Wolf Guard), but this is a separate unit. He later speculated that necrons might get a WG like unit.
ghost21 wrote:but apart from that expect insane abilities on elites (flayed ones I'm looking at you).
Hit and a miss. He was correct in that Flayed ones remained in the elite slot. However, I am not aware of Flayed ones possessing insane abilities.
Ghost21 wrote:
Well now, thank you for saying Flayed One's won't be troops
Now it makes one wonder what the other troop is aside warriors...
I guess scarabs...
yeah id say that was accurate
Not accurate...scarabs stayed in the fast attack slot
Ghost21 wrote:
Yeah I wouldn't be suprised if the Immortals kit includes variant Warsycthe arms and extra bling so you can build the retinue.
thats a strong possibility
id be thinking more 8 warriors (so if you want warriors id buy em now)
Nope on all accounts. In addition, Ghost reiterates several more times that the warriors box will be recut with less models in a box. This didn't happen.
Ghost21 wrote:res orbs are overpowered normally there's a sc that has an even MORE POWERFUL ONE! (hope that clears things up)
the version i read had s&p ( for some )
No, there is no SC with a more powerful res orb that I am aware of.
ShumaGorath wrote:Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan
This is more of a case of Chaos being a “popular” faction which is why you would see a placing, not because Chaos had a good codex. 40k is not as rock/paper/scissors with codex strength as you might think as player ability is more important than anything else.
Clearly it had nothing to do with the codexes access to cheap and highly resilient scoring units, low cost high output monstrous creatures, or resilient multi use long range units. It was all due to how 'popular' the codex is. Nope, khorne berserkers and plague marines were never the best troop choices in the game. Obliterators were never the best heavy support, demon princes were never the best HQ, you never had the ability to make cheap I5 LC terrm squads or field low cost battlecanons attached to fleeting 5 attack dreadnaughts. You weren't the first one to get cheap rhinos, you weren't the first one to get a low cost deep striking melta unit, you werent the first one to get powerful and game changing psychic powers.
Clearly the lack of cultists made the book gak.
You are correct about how powerful the 4th edition codex was when it came out. The 4th edition codex was way more powerful than the 3.5 codex. The 4th edition codex was the monster that started the codex creep. The 4th edition codex caused a huge number of power gamers to codex hop into chaos, and most them them left for greener pastures. All of that being said what chaos players are demanding is a return to the 3.5 codex, not another 4th edition codex to top grey knights.
We want viable mono god lists for the 4 single god themed legions.
We want a viable list for the undivided legions such as iron warriors, alpha legion, world bearers, and night lords
What we don't want another codex black legion where every competitive list is mechanized plague marines for troops, 2 lash princes, and obliterators.
The lack of cultists did make the book absolute gak for iron warriors, alpha legion, and word bearer players. Running those legions without legions is like running IG without infantry, so those legions have effectively been squated since september 2007. Mono Khorne, mono Tzeentch, and mono Slaneesh lists have also been complete gak since the book came out. The codex was absolutely terrible for 8/9 chaos legions, and fantastic for black legion. Furthermore by your own logic that it was a bad overpowered codex when it was released 4th ed chaos is a bad codex. I have no idea why your panties are in a bind about the possibility of chaos going more in the direction of the 3.5 codex.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
I have no idea why your panties are in a bind about the possibility of chaos going more in the direction of the 3.5 codex.
Look to your own panties, schadenfreude. What you quoted was in response to someone asserting that C:CSM 4th demanded player skill rather than being good in itself (you quoted this, too, so it's difficult to see how you missed it). You're talking on a completely different point, about what the next book should be like.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/11/15 14:51:55
aka_mythos wrote:Second, beyond desire, there really isn't any reason to believe Obliterators should or could be released in plastic. They are low model count, no option models, so unless something changes that finecast is realistically the most you should hope for.
I give you...Terminators!
The current trend seems to be make 1 box work for 2 different things. Now, considering we've had new plastic Terminators with the last release at best we're looking at Finecast or some sort of upgrade sprue with Terminators to have a dual function Terminators/Obliterators box. Base them both on the same basic build - well, considering they have very similar stats in the first place....
I can't recall any kit they've done this after it was already released. This also ignores the distinct differences in appearance between terminators and obliterators... and the proportion of the original model that would have to be replaced. I think a purely Obliterator plastic kit is far more likely than an add-on or hybrid terminator kit. The models have never done the concept justice, and I'm inclined to believe that if they're redone GW will attempt to give them a worthwhile sculpt. That can't be accomplished with add-on and hybrid kits.
I do see this as likely happening simply from a simplicity standpoint (they're large figs with heavy armor and roughly the same shape on 40mm bases) but I hope it won't for purely selfish reasons. The current oblits are a bit bigger than termies and would make for great chaos Terminators in a truescale Deathwatch RPG game. All it takes is a medium effort concept redesign to make them a derivation of the terminator kit. If they kept the current design then I don't see a combo kit happening.
schadenfreude wrote:The lack of cultists did make the book absolute gak for iron warriors, alpha legion, and word bearer players. Running those legions without legions is like running IG without infantry, so those legions have effectively been squated since september 2007.
Oddly enough, I keep seeing these IG armies with lots of tanks and jet aircraft across the table and no infantry to be found. Oh, do you mean the squishy little things that pop out when I blow up one of those metal boxes?
Saying that IW is not a real chapter is like saying SW is not a real chapter. The reason why I think GW does not want single codexes for chaos is because it will take for every to update other codexes (tau). It would be nice to include special characters and bring back LATD.
schadenfreude wrote:The lack of cultists did make the book absolute gak for iron warriors, alpha legion, and word bearer players. Running those legions without legions is like running IG without infantry, so those legions have effectively been squated since september 2007.
Oddly enough, I keep seeing these IG armies with lots of tanks and jet aircraft across the table and no infantry to be found. Oh, do you mean the squishy little things that pop out when I blow up one of those metal boxes?
I never saw a single cultist on the table during the entirety of my time playing against the 3.5 chaos codex. I saw four separate basilisk obliterator armies, but for some reason cultists weren't in them.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
schadenfreude wrote:The lack of cultists did make the book absolute gak for iron warriors, alpha legion, and word bearer players. Running those legions without legions is like running IG without infantry, so those legions have effectively been squated since september 2007.
Oddly enough, I keep seeing these IG armies with lots of tanks and jet aircraft across the table and no infantry to be found. Oh, do you mean the squishy little things that pop out when I blow up one of those metal boxes?
I never saw a single cultist on the table during the entirety of my time playing against the 3.5 chaos codex. I saw four separate basilisk obliterator armies, but for some reason cultists weren't in them.
4th ed lacked the objectives of 5th ed
Not all iw were as focused on cultists. With 5th ed rules you would see a lot more cultists around as cheap objective grabbers.
I saw plenty of cultists around in alpha legion lists. World bearers have never been real popular, but I never saw a pre 4th ed list without cultists.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
I have no idea why your panties are in a bind about the possibility of chaos going more in the direction of the 3.5 codex.
Look to your own panties, schadenfreude. What you quoted was in response to someone asserting that C:CSM 4th demanded player skill rather than being good in itself (you quoted this, too, so it's difficult to see how you missed it). You're talking on a completely different point, about what the next book should be like.
My own panties have been in a bind for over 4 years ever since my alpha legion army got squatted.
That didn't look like an assertation that 4th ed C:CSM took skill, it looked more like a rant about C:CSM being stupid op back when it came out (which it was)
Most chaos players have a favorite legion, much like loyalists have their favorite chapter. Chaos players are upset because the only competitive build is black legion, 9 out of 11 of the founding legions are chaos, but chaos only has 1 book to 6 loyalists books that all have multiple competitive builds.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
I have no idea why your panties are in a bind about the possibility of chaos going more in the direction of the 3.5 codex.
Look to your own panties, schadenfreude. What you quoted was in response to someone asserting that C:CSM 4th demanded player skill rather than being good in itself (you quoted this, too, so it's difficult to see how you missed it). You're talking on a completely different point, about what the next book should be like.
My own panties have been in a bind for over 4 years ever since my alpha legion army got squatted.
That didn't look like an assertation that 4th ed C:CSM took skill, it looked more like a rant about C:CSM being stupid op back when it came out (which it was)
Most chaos players have a favorite legion, much like loyalists have their favorite chapter. Chaos players are upset because the only competitive build is black legion, 9 out of 11 of the founding legions are chaos, but chaos only has 1 book to 6 loyalists books that all have multiple competitive builds.
I was railing against someone who said that the chaos book was underpowered and saw tournament success because of it's popularity, not it's power. It's not a difficult codex to play and thanks to the presence of the incredibly powerful troops choices in there it's one of the most forgiving in the game. Read the quote I was quoting before responding to what I said without understanding what was intended. Black legion wasn't even close to the only competitive build and berserker rhino rush lists and plaguemarine foot slog lists are and have always been quite good.
I mean, if we're taking tourney monobuiilds into account then the basic marine book lacks any variety at all since vulkan has and has always been the only viable tourney build.
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
I have no idea why your panties are in a bind about the possibility of chaos going more in the direction of the 3.5 codex.
Look to your own panties, schadenfreude. What you quoted was in response to someone asserting that C:CSM 4th demanded player skill rather than being good in itself (you quoted this, too, so it's difficult to see how you missed it). You're talking on a completely different point, about what the next book should be like.
My own panties have been in a bind for over 4 years ever since my alpha legion army got squatted.
That didn't look like an assertation that 4th ed C:CSM took skill, it looked more like a rant about C:CSM being stupid op back when it came out (which it was)
Most chaos players have a favorite legion, much like loyalists have their favorite chapter. Chaos players are upset because the only competitive build is black legion, 9 out of 11 of the founding legions are chaos, but chaos only has 1 book to 6 loyalists books that all have multiple competitive builds.
9 out of 18 legions are Chaos. The 4th Ed Chaos Codex was a very poor show to people who had legion specific armies, such as my old Death Guard Army, beyond the Plaguemarines the rest of my army was no longer Death Guard just Nurgle.
I hope that they can make the unit choices more interesting and make Chaos something that is unique and not just Spiky Marines.
Armies | Space Marines (Void Knights - Own Chapter), Space Wolves & Dark Angels | Imperial Guard Cadian and Kasrikin | Grey Knight/Sisters/Inquisitors | Empire - Hochland | Britanan (Relics) | Mordor & Gondor |
Hello, although I'm a static Zero.
I'm fighting all your wars.
Warning: These miniatures contain lead and should not be chewed or swallowed.
Kanluwen wrote:If Phil's writing the book, expect it to be nowhere near as good as Wolves or Dark Eldar.
Kelly has no vested interest in Chaos. He only does well on the armies he plays/collects, and if he's working on Chaos he'd likely halfarse it so he can get to working on Sisters faster.
NO!
I can't let this comment pass. You do realise that Kelly is a member of the crew that wrote the 3.5 Chaos codex, which is regarded by almost everyone as the best Chaos codex ever.
I could Murder a cup of tea 
Karyorhexxus' Sons of the Locust: 1000pts 
Craftworld Squishy: ~1500pts of Eldar 
Corbulo is practicaly Jesus with a chainsword 
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