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&theyshallknownofear wrote:
I was a tau fan for a long time, without actually getting any, . if you read through their codex a few times, you understand that the modern ethereals are corrupt little buggers. however the 1st ethereals meant well and they stopped the Mont'tau by saying that all had 2 live in harmony for a greater good. the tau, it seems, took that a bit literally.

What makes you think they are corrupt?

 Eetion wrote:
making a sweeping statement about how Totalitarian the Tau are with zero evidence

It's hardly zero evidence. In fact, it is the only picture we have of the actual circumstances of Tau ruling humans. So 100% of the available evidence supports the idea that Tau are totalitarian.

Also, as far as we know from the Codex, the Ethereal control all parts of Tau society. That's totalitarian.

Maybe but each caste is self sufficient also, capable of acting independently, and there are more Ethreals than worlds, some septs may have many others only 1, and it seems to be the other castes have input in decisions, nothing to say the auxilliary races also don't have input also. And is this any worse than planetary governors?

Also one picture while making a suggestion isn't proof of empire wide policy. It may show an example or a unique glimpse into one area. There are whole reems of text telling us of the brutality of the imperium. To say that one picture makes the tau worse that the imperium with no supporting literture is bias.

Where did you get the notion that the castes are self-sufficient?

Again and again, you go back to this idea of the Tau not being worse than the Imperium. IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER. Just because the Imperium is worse doesn't make the Tau any better. The Tau are weird and bad in their own inhuman ways.

 Manchu wrote:
Where did you get the notion that the castes a self-sufficient?

Again and again, you go back to this idea of the Tau not being worse than the Imperium. IT. DOES. NOT. MATTER. Just because the Imperium is worse doesn't make the Tau any better. The Tau are weird and bad in their own inhuman ways.

It makes me giggle.

The atrocities of the Imperium make you giggle?

nomotog wrote:

&theyshallknownofear wrote:
I was a tau fan for a long time, without actually getting any, . if you read through their codex a few times, you understand that the modern ethereals are corrupt little buggers. however the 1st ethereals meant well and they stopped the Mont'tau by saying that all had 2 live in harmony for a greater good. the tau, it seems, took that a bit literally.

What makes you think they are corrupt?

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Ethereal have absolute power over their race and they are no better than humans when it comes to power(a common theme in 40k really no race handles power well).

In the DE codex there is a battle between the Tau and Tyranids the DE come and offer their "help" with the battle under the condition of a culture exchange. In the deal 7 Ethereal were to come as well as 77 tau from each caste. The Ethereal didn't go. The next battle ended with the Tau realizing what happened to their fellows and refused the DE demands. They then heared cries of help from Rubikon, but when they got there was no sign of the Tau who lived there.

Point I'm trying to make here is that the Ethereal will sacrifice a thousand or more of there fellow Tau to save there own skins(not saying that it is not done in the IOM, but the common people don't stand for it the common Tau do). I get that the Tau Empire is a nicer place to live than the IOM, but I'm with @Manchu on that the Tau are not perfect and they are aliens with different ways of doing things. I'm mean what human wants to be told that you will never become anything more than what you are now and not want to fight that.

"Power corrupts" is a human concept. Power may not be tempting at all to Tau. From the Tau POV, perhaps the castes were totally willing to go as long as their Ethereals didn't. To humans, this looks like brainwashing -- but to the Tau, this may just be how they naturally think.

True, that is a good point

Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies?

Who says they do not? We don't have enough background to make this judgement.

I can believe that you are serious, or you actually don't know anything about Tau background.
Let's see:
Kroot: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Vespids: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Demiurg: No caste system implemented. Not even tried. Not even part of the Empire, just independent allies.
Taros (humans): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Gravalax (humans, novel "For the Emperor"): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Deathwatch planets: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
(...)Any other known non-Tau population in the background: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.

Actually, the caste system is something explicitely created by ethereals to stop the self-destruction of the Tau race through Mont'au. This society system works for Tau and since implementation, there has been no civil war among Tau. There is no logical reason to export this system to other races, as they ARE different races.

And why can Kroot hide the fundaments of their economy and biology before Tau? Because there is no totalitarian system controlling Kroot, they do what they want and wouldn't accept any ruler anyway.

Manchu wrote:Tau prefer efficiency in the classic colonial sense: the masters get all the benefits while the slaves shoulder all the burdens.

That is complete nonsense far from any official background and obviously made up without any effort to fit in.
Kroot are no slaves. One of them even was a general of Tau Empire forces. Slaves don't usually become generals. Slavers don't usually fight a 10 year war side by side their future slaves just to save them from extinction and celebrate their new alliance.
Demiurg are no slaves either.
The humans on Gravalax are no slaves either.

Human populations joining the Tau Empire have an intrinsic loyalty problem (made more severe by possible Chaos corruption). A considerable part of the population usually is Imperial and Xenophobic to the core and wants to kill all Tau (and usually tried that in a war), sometimes this part consists only of the Imperial occupation forces. Tau can't tolerate strong forces within the Tau Empire that want to kill Tau. Therefore:
1.) They ask the government to make sure that the planet will be a peaceful member of the Tau Empire, working together with its other members instead of killing them (part of the "Greater Good" contract)
2.) A global education program (similar to what the WW2 allies forced on Germany, to transform it from a Fascist-Xenophobic to a tolerant democratic state) with special care for the "decision makers". It takes several generations to transform frothing xeno-haters into decent members of a peaceful society, and it takes a lot of education. And in Europe, we value education as a good thing, not as mind-washing by the state.
3.) After a war (see Taros), you can't let all Xenophobic enemy soldiers run around freely. So for these (and e.g. terrorists) detention in prison camps is sadly a must. I don't see a problem in that, as anything else would be suicidal for the colony.

So dealing with human populations is quite delicate and demands complex solutions (if there are hostile Imperials among them that is).
Saying that Tau are totalitarian, but just to lazy to implement a totalitarian regime is ...

nomotog wrote:

Okay, mistakes happen

Aren't the Demuirg and Kroot mercenaries, ie if the Tau stopped paying them they would lose their services and the fact Kroot operate their own spaceships (Kroot spheres)
Attempting to Enforce a caste system against a possibly (Probably even) resistant people with the ability to at least run from you isn't always going to end well

Kroot work as mercenaries outside the Tau Empire, but as a race, they are sworn allies to the Tau, because Tau saved them from extinction (in a 10 year war against Orks).
Demiurg are traders and miners, but not mercenaries. It is rumoured, they gave railgun technology to the Tau.

Tau don't pay either of them BTW.

@Kroothawk: Where exactly in the published materials does it say that the Tau did not even try to force the caste system on any of those species? Plus you're flat-out wrong about the DW books, where there is a Water Caste gue'vesa. You say the caste system only applies to the Tau because the Ethereals proposed it to halt their warfare. But the Greater Good itself was also proposed by the Ethereals to halt warfare. Clearly that does not only apply to the Tau race.

The relationship between the Kroot and Tau races is clearly not co-equal. The Tau are the colonial patrons; the other races are their clients.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kroothawk wrote:

1.) They ask the government to make sure that the planet will be a peaceful member of the Tau Empire, working together with its other members instead of killing them (part of the "Greater Good" contract)

Embrace the Greater Good, gue'la, or we will be forced to eliminate you.

 Kroothawk wrote:

2.) A global education program (similar to what the WW2 allies forced on Germany, to transform it from a Fascist-Xenophobic to a tolerant democratic state) with special care for the "decision makers". It takes several generations to transform frothing xeno-haters into decent members of a peaceful society, and it takes a lot of education. And in Europe, we value education as a good thing, not as mind-washing by the state.

Indoctrination in the Greater Good will help you abandon your barbaric ways, gue'la. You must be reeducated to appreciate the teachings of our Dear Leaders, the Ethereals.

 Kroothawk wrote:

3.) After a war (see Taros), you can't let all Xenophobic enemy soldiers run around freely. So for these (and e.g. terrorists) detention in prison camps is sadly a must. I don't see a problem in that, as anything else would be suicidal for the colony.

Although you refuse to serve the Greater Good voluntarily, you will still play your part in our concentration camps. If you work hard, you may be noted as a candidate for the re-education program.

The blue alien's burden.

 Manchu wrote:
@Kroothawk: Where exactly in the published materials does it say that the Tau did not even try to force the caste system on any of those species? Plus you're flat-out wrong about the DW books, where there is a Water Caste gue'vesa. You say the caste system only applies to the Tau because the Ethereals proposed it to halt their warfare. But the Greater Good itself was also proposed by the Ethereals to halt warfare. Clearly that does not only apply to the Tau race.

The relationship between the Kroot and Tau races is clearly not co-equal. The Tau are the colonial patrons; the other races are their clients.

Even if that's true The Kroot aren't a good example of a typical relationship the Tau have with aliens. They're basically their favorite aliens. The Tau aren't "using" the Kroot, the Kroot are using the Tau. The Tau have been forthcoming in their dealings with the Tau. The Kroot keep things from the Tau.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Kroot work as mercenaries outside the Tau Empire, but as a race, they are sworn allies to the Tau, because Tau saved them from extinction (in a 10 year war against Orks).

Yes, and they do so against the Tau's agreement with the Kroot.

Demiurg are traders and miners, but not mercenaries. It is rumoured, they gave railgun technology to the Tau.

Ion technology actually, and it's not a rumor.

Tau don't pay either of them BTW.

They most certainly do pay the Demiurg and Kroot. I do not know why you think these two races engage with the Tau for free.

 KamikazeCanuck wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
The Tau are the colonial patrons; the other races are their clients.

Even if that's true The Kroot aren't a good example of a typical relationship the Tau have with aliens.

Thanfkully, we have more than one example to support the claim.

 Manchu wrote:
@Kroothawk: Where exactly in the published materials does it say that the Tau did not even try to force the caste system on any of those species? Plus you're flat-out wrong about the DW books, where there is a Water Caste gue'vesa.

Where exactly in the published materials does it say that the Emperor is not a cleverly disguised catgirl?
And do you have a page for the Water Caste gue'vesa? Sounds like a huge botch missed by the proof readers.
Can happen in times after the fluff coordinator has left GW (Gav Thorpe) and more and more He-man style stories spread in official Codices (not all: Dark Eldar Codex was genius and even Necron expansion was mosly excellent).

 Manchu wrote:
Indoctrination in the Greater Good will help you abandon your barbaric ways, gue'la. You must be reeducated to appreciate the teachings of our Dear Leaders, the Ethereals.

Not all education is evil. Try it

 Kroothawk wrote:
Where exactly in the published materials does it say that the Emperor is not a cleverly disguised catgirl?

On the same page where it says Tau are utilitarians.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Not all education is evil. Try it

I am educating you even now. Why do you resist, gue'vesa?

Maybe because Kroot are not Gue'vesa
And Kroot are the first and best documented Tau-ally, so you can't push them aside as irrelevant (as you pushed away the intention of the creators of the Tau race )

And as you push aside the Codex

The sad part about your arguments manchu, is that they sound pretty much identical to real-world religious zealots.

Makes no sense, assume whatever "information" is missing, and ignore whatever facts they are not comfortable with as "unreliable".


I have had more luck reasoning with my dog. at least she understands that the basic concept of "do what I ask and I'll give you a treat, bite me and I'll have to disciple you" and don't attempt to start a coup against my "opressive ways" (nor does she thinks its such a bad life and attempts to leave, and both the house and the yard are usually open)

 Kroothawk wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
If Tau are so damn totalitarian, why don't they force a caste system on other societies?

Who says they do not? We don't have enough background to make this judgement.

I can believe that you are serious, or you actually don't know anything about Tau background.
Let's see:
Kroot: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Vespids: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Demiurg: No caste system implemented. Not even tried. Not even part of the Empire, just independent allies.
Taros (humans): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Gravalax (humans, novel "For the Emperor"): No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
Deathwatch planets: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.
(...)Any other known non-Tau population in the background: No caste system implemented. Not even tried.

We don't know any of this. You are speculating.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Kroot work as mercenaries outside the Tau Empire, but as a race, they are sworn allies to the Tau, because Tau saved them from extinction (in a 10 year war against Orks).
Demiurg are traders and miners, but not mercenaries. It is rumoured, they gave railgun technology to the Tau.

Tau don't pay either of them BTW.

I think they gave Ion tech not railguns. I think fluff wise, ion weapons are newer and more advanced then rail guns. The tau have had gravity manipulation tech sense before they made there first warp jump.

Some folks were subjugated by the Tau and gained appreciation for the greater good over time. Others do it for mutual protection. *shrugz*

I could see humans with exposure to Tau culture being wooed by the open society. IoM is dystopian in comparison.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The sad part about your arguments manchu, is that they sound pretty much identical to real-world religious zealots.

Makes no sense, assume whatever "information" is missing, and ignore whatever facts they are not comfortable with as "unreliable".

You have either not read or failed to comprehend my posts ITT. How about some actual arguments rather than personal attacks? If it's too much to ask that you engage with the discussion then I will kindly ask you to refrain from participating.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Not even tried. [ad nauseum]

We don't know any of this. You are speculating.

I already pointed this out. And the counterargument was "we don't know whether the Emperor is a catgirl."

@BoomWolf

Be careful with personal attacks, otherwise someone just might go Mod Bankai on your ass.

C.S. Lewis wrote:
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."

While this certainly applies to most 40k factions, this seems very relevant with regards to the Tau IMHO.

 Manchu wrote:

nomotog wrote:
Page numbers?

Are you kidding? You participated in the last thread. Look it up yourself, I am at work.

Just in case you hadn't gotten around to it, or never intended to do it in the first place, I looked up the page numbers for you: pp 352- 53.

The human quoted is titled "Gue'la Water Caste Liaison." I admit this could refer to him either being a member of the human Water Caste or a human liaison to the Tau Water Caste. Since either interpretation would not contradict any other published material I know of, either interpretation is possible.

As to the beneficence of the Tau overlords:

Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

Attached to the Gue'Retha [an indoctrination center for humans] is a place which the Tau decline to name, but which human malcontents call the Lacuna. This underground research facility, it is rumored, is where the Tau conduct psychological experiments on gue'la prisoners. The results supposedly help the Tau refine their methods of social manipulation, but no one can be sure since any heard to utter such thoughts vanish, quite possibly into the Lacuna itself.

 Manchu wrote:

As to the beneficence of the Tau overlords:

Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, asis the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

Reminds me of the Soviet Union, that's for sure.

Attached to the Gue'Retha [an indoctrination center for humans] is a place which the Tau decline to name, but which human malcontents call the Lacuna. This underground research facility, it is rumored, is where the Tau conduct psychological experiments on gue'la prisoners. The results supposedly help the Tau refine their methods of social manipulation, but no one can be sure since any heard to utter such thoughts vanish, quite possibly into the Lacuna itself.

1984, anyone?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

As to the beneficence of the Tau overlords:

Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, asis the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

Reminds me of the Soviet Union, that's for sure.

Also reminds me of some of Amish communities. If you mess up, they they take you away to another community and no one talks about you any more.

nomotog wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

As to the beneficence of the Tau overlords:

Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, asis the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear, and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

Reminds me of the Soviet Union, that's for sure.

Also reminds me of some of Amish communities. If you mess up, they they take you away to another community and no one talks about you any more.

Well, its not like the Imperium doesn't hide the truth either, but at least they admit they do. Whereas the Tau would simply say 'nothing like that happened'/'that person never existed', the Imperium would say 'the matter was concluded long ago'/'that person has paid for his actions' and leave it at that.