Vaktathi wrote:Please just use the normal quote functionality, it can't be more effort than color coding everything.
Okey dokey.
Edit: Can we agree to make the arguments more concise, this post took pretty long to respond to.
They don't hold objectives with any degree of amazingness, they're T3 4+sv Ld8 units. Yes they pump out fire. However they're T3 4+sv Ld8 (meaning they're relatively easy to shift off objectives) and can't do squat to most vehicles and are relatively ineffective against most Monstrous Creatures.
Most infantry is ineffective against monstrous creatures in shooting (except, well, Grey Hunters/
IG Vets with specials) and their defensive stats don't seem amazing, but considering that A) As a unit, they're cheap B) Ethereals are very commonly take to mitigate leadership issues and C) Most of the time the things that would wreck them at close range never get in the sweet spot because, well,
Tau, and because they're relatively long ranged, I don't really agree they're easy to shift off objectives.
The key thing is that they're actually doing something useful in terms of firepower that isn't completely meh at a fairly long range.
Well, yes, supporting fire is rather silly, but that's not a Fire Warrior or Tac Squad specific thing, that's applies to all Tau units and many other armies have to deal with that as well.
True, but it mitigates the single weakness against other infantry they have.
There's all sorts of units that won't have a problem closing the range, the bigger issue for Tac squads is that they have to spend a turn sitting there after hopping out of a transport no matter what. Drop Pods usually work rather well, as even though they have the same problem, positioning is far easier and you can't shoot a pod from across the board before it gets to where it wants to be.
This is an issue that yes, is pretty bad for
Tac squads foremost, and yes, some units like Bikers will find the job of closing with the Tau easier - but those Bikers are potential Troops, and they get a massive number of bonuses over Tacs anyway, so why not take them over Tacs? The big problem with Drop Pods is that we're also talking about an army where everything under the sun can buy a 5 pt Interceptor upgrade, and marshal retaliation fire that could easily wipe a Drop Pod assault turn after turn, even with some casualties sustained.
Regardless, that's nothing new, they've been able to take that many guns in a barebones platoon since at least 3rd edition if not 2nd. Why is this suddenly an issue?
It's not. Its the
Tac Squad's allowances being pretty stupid that is an issue. They should at the very least be able to get 2 specials.
Yes, however, as above, the SM's basic weaponry is notably more effective and each gun the SM's have is more capable.
You don't buy a Tactical Squad for the basic weaponry- same as how you don't buy Veterans for the 6 Lasguns in the squad. The
IG have plenty of support assets that can mop the floor with infantry, the flashlights aren't meant to let a Vet Squad decimate something outside of the specials, they're just extra fire that might conceivably do something.
SM on the other hand get vary handi-capped support assets - Thunderfires are barrage, BS4, have multiple blasts, but they're not AP3, and they're not going to do much at all to heavy infantry that the Tacs can't handle. Vindicators vanish when their side armour is ranged, and have a short threat range and life expectancy. Just to name 2 examples. This doesn't mean either unit is particularly bad - it just demonstrates that when the balls-out firepower option of either conserving points in troops by getting Scouts, or by going for firepower by getting Bikes in place of Tacs, those downsides that the specialist heavy firepower have aren't such a big deal anymore, as Grav Bikers wreck
MC's, heavy infantry and light infantry with equal measure, at high speed.
The only thing the
SM Tac Squad gets that
IG/
GH don't is the Grav Gun for one, and that tends to be naff on non-relentless units and not taken even by those devoted to Tacs, and the Multi-Melta second, which you only get one of in a 200~ pt squad. Not exactly stellar. BS4 is nice, but not worth the sum of the other issues with Tacs.
3 slots, the command squad cannot take 2 heavy weapons, and they're all at a less capable ballistic skill.
My bad. Yes, its at a worse ballistic skill, but can the point really be made when comparing 3 BS3 weapons to 1 BS4 weapon? There is a clear winner there.
Yes, and that's largely the entirety of their value of those units, the guns. If you want as many guns as the IG...play IG? SM's have never been about achieving firepower parity with the shootiest army in the game. That would be absurd.
It is the entire value of those units, the role, the reason for taking, the thing that actually adds something competent to your list. Tacticals don't add anything except an expensive slab of meat that doesn't even particularly hold up against fire when it comes down to it, can't put out enough fire to be justifiable, and don't give any role that makes them worthwhile, while being inferior to Bikes in many, many ways. They do not have enough special/heavy firepower to create a squad with a solid role. They don't have any abilities or things that you really need in an
SM list trying to be competitive.
Bikes are taken because they can rip half the wounds off an
MC quick, efficiently and for much the same cost with Grav Weapons, decimate all forms of infantry, score and reposition quickly. Scouts are cheap and cheerful.
SM's have an APC, it's a cheap box to get Supersoldiers from point A to point B so they can do their Supersoldier thing. Guardsmen have an IFV, to shelter and support weeny infantry. The SM transport has better side armor and has side hatch, the IG transport must put its one good armor facing away from the enemy to get the maximum disembark distance and has worse side armor. Different tools for different purposes.
Except the Rhino just doesn't work. It may have very small advantages like its cheaper cost and better side armour, but the fact is, it evaporates considerably faster with AV11 front and there is nothing in the
SM book worth taking that can do the
LR+Chimera
LOS block gimmick well.
A
Tac squad with Rhino costs virtually the same as 5 Bikes - unless you take naff bolter marines to flesh out the
Tac Squad, the price doesn't vary much at all between the two. Having a 12'' movement, 12'' turboboost, T5, jink save, relentless and maybe something else definitely wins out over the Rhino.
Meanwhile a flamer is going to utterly screw an IG squad while doing nothing to the SM's.
On how many occasions have you seen dedicated flamer units, much less any that get close to your infantry? In the competitive meta, they're extremely rare. Usually, template weapons like so are AP3 or better, or S6+.
Besides, a single flamer template, providing you didn't bunch up extremely close, is going to hit, at most, what, 6-8? That's about 4-5 dead Guardsmen. If they have bolters, add another 4 or 5 dead, presuming cover. You've then got about 20+ infantry left that with
FRFSRF and supporting assets will wipe the floor with those Tacs.
Indeed, the far more common prospect here is the lower
AP, considerable range pie plates.
Some weapons will naturally be more effective. Use the right tool for the job. AP3 pieplates are also generally the realm of heavy support battletanks (Fire Prism, Leman Russ, etc) so you're usually not facing a wall of them.
In competitive lists things like Riptides, Prisms, Russes, etc are going to be common and you can take 4-5 (exception of Eldar) at 1750~.
That said, there's also a huge number of ways to mitigate battlecannon fire. I stopped running normal Russ's in most games for precisly because they're so easy to mitigate. A modicum of spread and any amount of cover drastically reduces the effectiveness of a battlecannon.
Unless you catch a clumped up squad in the open with a hit, a battle cannon is probably only killing 2-3 marines. They're great psychological threats, but not as capable as many fear them to be. Landing shot on a unit of moderately spread marines in 5+ cover, say it hits 5, between wounding on 2's and 5+ cover, that fearsome pieplate might kill 3 guys.
The standard
LRBT isn't that great, if we're being fair. The Executioner (with the mandatory anti-gets hot measures) is going to be the primary example for
IG here. The Tacticals can spread, but then they're closer to your other elements, if its even practical for them to try, (e.g, trying to avoid being ranged by something) they may spend longer trying to get through cover, and with every casualty, they're taking longer to reach your lines, because of the space between each loose rank of infantry.
3 dead Marines, which is a pretty conservative estimate, also given the above, is still roughly a third of the squad, meaning your already naff anti-infantry is now even more trashy. And this is from just one 150 point tank, that is pretty underpowered and overcosted as it is.
They can take Commissars at 25pts per unit...on 50-60pt units. That's..not particularly cheap.
Marines at best get LD9 by paying 10 points on top of an already expensive redundant unit. You're not going to be shoving the
HQ IC's in the Rhinos, and if you're silly enough to try, you're only putting a block of gold in a bag of rotten eggs. Except the bag is also rotting. And has holes in it. And you have other rotten bags to carry on top of the heavy weight of the priceless metal.
Priests are 25 for flat out fearless, a Commissar lets you auto-pass leadership so long as he lives, and while there is a small chance you may lose one special in a platoon blob, you still have several more. He also gives stubborn, so you don't get rolled easily in
CC unless the enemy has a boatload of attacks.
They can take Lord Commissars for a minimum price nearly that of two rhinos and give a Regimental Standard to a CCS, but neither of those units are particularly hardy.
They're not the only options here, and definitely not the best. And the
LC is far from easy to snipe out.
The only super cheap Ld booster, especially one that can't be relatively easily removed, is a Commissar for a conscript squad or a Combined Infantry Squad.
You're completely forgetting about Priests. 25 points for fearless, before you even consider the
CC buffs. And the Priest has a 4+ invuln and the ability to smash.
That all depends on what you're throwing at them. If we're talking about a pitched heavy weapons battle, well surprise surprise, the army specializing in attritional pitched battles is going to win (until it has to start taking Ld tests or suffer a tankshock or whatnot, if we're assuming it has Ld reinforcement then the cost of the Ld reinforcement will need to be factored in and it's not going to be cheaper than the tac squad). If we're talking about an objective in the open (often happens) at close range, or one that has to be *taken*? That's a different story.
If there's an objective in the open, the
SM player's Tacs will get wiped off it in as a cloth doth wipe down a table. Tacticals are atrociously bad at assaulting a defensive position with a sizeable platoon, with
LD buffers sitting on it. At best they do about 10~ casualties, and then get double-tapped into oblivion, or even ripped apart in
CC if a Priest is present. With re-rolls to hit and wound, there will be a sore pain in their posteriors. This isn't even considering the fact that Tacticals struggle to reach the enemy full stop, and the supporting assets of the
IG.
It doesn't matter if its the same price, because in
40k we don't match units of equal cost on the field. What we can match in theoryhammer is likely unit loudouts - a blob in a competitive game is going to have an
LD/morale buffer, period.
For some weapons in some cases this is true. But in most it isn't, and most of those are a whole lot cheaper than ones that are good at killing marines. Marines have a whole lot less cover save ignoring weaponry to fear, and there are no commonly available secondary weapons systems for tanks which do so, unlike say, Heavy Flamers that are available on each and every IG tank, or Smart Missile Systems available on anything Tau with an AV value plus their big scary robot guys (yeah we're twin linked, wound you on 2's, ignore your armor and cover, oh and we don't need line of sight).
Heavy Flamers on
IG tanks are only really going to be threatening on Chimeras, and they're not particularly reliable enough to reach the perfect killing point against a competent opponent. The Riptide is one of the big examples of the worthlessness of
Tac Marine defense, so I'm surprised you used that.
True, there are some weapons designed to muller Guardsmen that in some cases are more common, e.g the Thunderfire. However with the number of models you have you can take extreme defensive measures with massive spread (if their role is to be defensive in the first place, which it probably will be as the
SM player will almost always be playing aggressive) and other precautions as you hinted at above far more efficiently than with 14 point dudes.
Surprise, if a unit designed to kill them gets in optimal range, they die. How's this different than anything else in the game?
You were claiming here that they were capable of taking on different targets in different situations, which isn't a particularly strong point here.
the option to take a missile launcher or lascannon no longer exists? They have no krak grenades anymore?
Missile Launchers/Lascannons aren't feasible or being fired at BS4 in a
Tac Squad unless they're home camping, which is just mediocrity at its purest. Vehicle assaults just aren't reliable or feasibly going to happen against a competent opponent often unless his luck sucks or he makes a mistake.
Marines don't have ways of getting themselves within 6" of enemy units?
Rhinos/Razorbacks are horrible at getting within Tacs within 6'', half will be dead by turn 2 and by that point you won't have anything resembling a decent offensive. Storm Ravens are expensive and you're prone to losing the bird before you deploy often. Land Raiders are too expensive and take up
HS slots. Drop pods only work well if your opponent doesn't know how drop pods work.
They can't take powerfists anymore? I've seen many an MC taken down by a powerfist. Now, the unit isn't always in great shape after that, but they're certainly not defenseless. A marine unit should on average kill something like a Carnifex in two rounds between a powerfist and their grenades.
Except you're bloating an already overpriced and naff unit with an upgrade that only really adds questionable defence against a hostile up to a
certain point. A
DP, the most fierce Nid
MC's, the Avatar, a Wraithknight and various others will not be frightened of a Power Fist or will wipe the floor with the squad first.
Bikes ignore the issue of being screwed by
MC's the moment you give them Grav Guns, or if playing White/Khan Scars, they can hit and run. The ability to hose your average
MC with AP2 fire and evade it if necessary, for considerably cheaper, with upgrades that do a fair bit more too, makes the power fist point here a bit moot.
One will also note that the MC's that are best at engaging Marines are usually the ones that cost a ton of points and can't offer much besides marine killing and tank smashing, many of which also basically have to slog into CC on foot. For instance, yeah, an Eldar Avatar is *real* rough on a unit of Marines in CC, but he's also not good at really anything else but that and has to footslog his way there.
The problem is that they do show up, and if you're not playing aggressively with Tacs you're wasting points.
The
Tac Marine squad here is roughly about 200 points, which is about 2/3 of even the most expensive
MC's cost paid back immediately. And you mean "infantry decimating,
MC tackling, Tank smashing." That is very all encompassing.
Again, how's that different than for any other unit in the game?
Wave Serpent Dire Avengers don't get that issue, period, because the Serpents are nigh-unkillable.
IG Platoons have the numbers to absorb fire or the
HW's to feasibly hold their ground instead. Tau don't have to move forward at all really because you're peppering them from 30''.
And how much is this platoon costing at this point? That certainly looks nothing like anything that might be made to resemble "cheap".
Maybe not entirely legitimate to claim those upgrades, but the
IG have the supporting assets that mitigate the issues of
MC's approaching greatly. E.g Straken+ Counter assault, Tanks, Vendettas,
Can you not do the same by taking Predators and Land Raiders? Besides, normally the IG are going to do the opposite, the LR tanks are going to sit behind the transports (especially as they're Heavy and can only move 6", a serious slowdown for a mechanized advance) and provide fire support while the Chimeras advance, much the way most marine mechanized assaults work.
Predators are complete garbage, and have side armour 11, where
LR's have 13. Land Raiders are also pretty garbage in terms of firepower and cost efficiency, no competitive list will ever field them as
LOS blockers like
LR's. And though perhaps an entirely different debate, I place more value on my limited supply of Mech scoring and
SW counter attack units because I don't run full mechanised generally. I always try to grab the 5+ 25% obscurement on the
LR's or exploit Strike and Shroud.
or if non-mechanised infantry, you can move on foot very fast with MMM! issued every turn.
This requires having an officer within 12", not having anything better to do with that order, and passing the order. None of which are necessarily guaranteed. You can make it very reliable with a Commissar and a Vox, but that's another 30pts to a 5ppm unit.
The
PCS is only really decent at blob buffing, so you will be using the orders on the blob. Getting an officer in 12'' is not difficult, and passing LD9/10 re-rollable (latter if you took an Inquisitor) is exceedingly reliable.
They hit back only after taking casualties into account, and guys getting back up don't count towards break tests, and don't get to swing until your marines get another chance to put them back down again. Unless you're facing a huge horde of them or they've got a character in there, the marines should take them in a couple of rounds of CC.
You will be killing at most 2-3 Warriors a turn, before reanimation, and there will likely be a Lord/
IC with high leadership present. A Tactical Squad locked in a near unending combat is a worthless Tactical Squad - the
CC ability you're trying to demonstrate here isn't working against Warriors. You probably won't even win the combat - the Warriors get S4 too.
What are we defining as "average"?
Would it happen to be something like, oh, say, a statline of 4's?
Above average compared to Marines, yes. Harlequins, Beast Masters, Striking Scorpions, Ork Boys,
CC buffed Guardsmen, Cult
CSM infantry, the list goes on.
Marines have more than enough capabilities between their numerous deployment methods
All of which are pretty terrible...
and psychic abilities and other capabilities to create their own luck.
Yet no divination outside of Tiggy, who is not going to be in a
Tac Squad...
At this point you're making it sound like Marine armies are mewling babes of ineptness, that simply cannot win a game on any terms unless through some stroke of extreme luck. This is not remotely true.
With Tacticals forming the core of your list, against competitive armies/lists, it is. I wasted months of my time trying to make them work, only for C:
SM to be released, and invalidate them by making Bikes moronically superior.
They're supposed to be generalists. They've always been generalists. They always will beneralists. On their own, they put out more shooting hurt than most other units (in an absolute sense if not always a relative sense) and put out more CC hurt than most similar units (again, in an absolute sense if not always in a relative sense).
Noone wants a generalist that isn't particularly good at anything.
Tac Marines are above average at most things, but pay out the ass for it, and have no role or effective contribution by the time you're done. You're stating what they're meant to be, instead of what they are.
And I feel that pain, as someone that has dozens of the buggers.
Maybe if the rules were written decently generalist Tacticals would work. Right now they don't.
And I'd trade my Tempestus Scions' stats and AP3 guns for Marine guns and stats any day of the week at the drop of a hat, especially given their near-parity in points.
Except you can't, though.
Tempestus Scions have double specials, and deepstrike. Therefore, they have a purpose/role/reason to include. They can do something you can't otherwise get. They have no better alternative, considering the deep strike, outside of Vets, which have more trouble reaching the enemy because they don't have
DS.
Do they just walk around clumped up in the open or something? Mine usually only kill 2-3 a turn if they're lucky. If I manage to land that very rare shot on the clumped up disembarked unit in the open, that's always fun as they all get scraped off the board, but I can remember the numbers of times I've gotten to do that on two hands over multiple editions of this game. Most of the time the opponent spreads them out, can get some sort of cover save, so that even if I manage to hit 5 or 6 (or more usually 2-4) I'm probably not killing more than 3, and that's assuming the scatter doesn't completely whiff.
I'm looking more at 3-5 at worst, and with multiple tanks and other supporting assets. I can't really evaluate my opponents as a whole but 95% of the time I'm not playing Steve the newbie with
DV.
Scatter whiffing is far less of an issue now we have plentiful access to divination with
IG.
The transports are pretty easy to kill, but so are Chimeras, and so is basically anything that's not a heavy tank or a "we always have a 4+ save" medium armored skimmer in 6E.
Chimeras from the front are in the sweet spot for armour, have feasible
LOS blocking
LR's in partnership, and are either more plentiful than with Marines, and not the core part of the strategy most of the time- you have supporting assets that are better suited to killing their hunters.
For the price of such a platoon, I would hope so. A 50 man platoon, before *any* upgrades, costs more than a kitted tac squad and transport. A kitted 30man platoon? As above, easily more than 300pts.
Not easily more than 300 points. 3 Infantry Squads, with 3 meltaguns, a Vox and a Priest is 210, about the same cost as the Tactical Squad. Again, on likelihood of finding over cost comparison, you will be seeing 50 man squads your Tacticals can't handle.
And a half squad of marines unloading bolters at such a squad would do much the same back for roughly the same price.
5 Bolters at BS4, double tapping, is about 3 Guardsmen in 5+/4+ cover dead.
Not necessarily, the squad may have podded in, taken out something with meltas on entry, lost 4 or 5 dudes the turn after, and now it can hit a tank or two with grenades in an assault on its own turn.
1) This makes the assumption that you presented the unit freely to be killed, when you could have put it in reserve or given it bubble wrap, or done something similar.
2) Tacticals with 2 full
BS melta shots are not that reliable at tank popping.
3) You move the tanks after the attack away, you pepper the Tacticals, and even if they survive (somehow) you present obstacles like bubblewrap Guardsmen or counter assault/attack units.
Yes, and that's why it costs as much as that tac squad. It's also not exactly the most reliable of weapons as it scatters about and the unit spreads itself out. Meanwhile the tank can't score or contest objectives, can't move more than 6" a turn, has nothing to do in the CC phase of the game but get hit and die, and has no way to get about the board more effectively or any alternate deployment options.
But it will be seen, making it seem a less attractive option doesn't really succeed in proving anything. And yes, it costs as much the squad possibly, but you're wiping many of the points off that
Tac squad when you fire.
And, again, divination in
IG.
CONCENSUS!!!!
I don't believe there's an point in debating if you can't concede on something.
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