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 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

Not at all.

FW molds using the type of resin they do are much different than injection molding.

The plastic FW uses is a lot different and the molds are capable of different things. They can do undercuts for example (e.g. they don't require a separate piece for a gas mask hose the way a GW plastic kit would). Their molds also wear out quicker and need to be replaced more often and are more prone to miscasts. Hand sculpted designs are very easily translated to this medium.

A GW injection molded plastic kit is a *much* different beast. The machine that runs that is a six figure investment, and each mold is typically a five digit investment, something like a Baneblade is possibly a six figure investment for the molds. These are big steel cube looking things hauled by overhead crane from storage, to the machine, and back. Their expense up front is huge, but are good for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of casts, and can do so with a much lower level of mis-casts and errors. They can't do detail quite as intricate however (as such you often need more pieces than you would with resin, and some detail will often look stretched or whatnot like weird videogame clipping). These are well suited to CAD design.

The design and production methods are *very* different.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

They are at least something a like because they both cast a mould to pump a material into it to make a model. Please you are making it sound like brain surgery to cast a modle in resin. Half the stuff on your dashboard was made with this method...so it really isn't that special of a skill.

Yeah you definitely dont know what you are talking about

Not in the slightest....

Comparing plastic HIP production and resin production is like comparing diesel and petrol engines, sure, there's a certain amount in common, and the end result is comparable, but the processes involved are very different.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

HIP kits production and resin casting are NOTHING alike. The costs involved, how the costs are linked to volume of production, the time taken and the materials used are all massively different. Once a die is cut for a plastic kit, the most significant cost, then your costs diminish for each kit you sell, and the production of the Sprue is a semi automated process. Resin casting requires an element of skill, a lot more time than a plastic kit, and the regular replacement of the moulds due to wear and tear, the ongoing production costs associated with resin casting are much higher.

They are at least something a like because they both cast a mould to pump a material into it to make a model. Please you are making it sound like brain surgery to cast a modle in resin. Half the stuff on your dashboard was made with this method...so it really isn't that special of a skill.

There was a sound like unto a thousand palms hitting a thousand faces....

Okay....

HIP (High Impact Plastics) are made in milled metal molds - very expensive to make.

The material used to make the toys in those metal molds is very small plastic beads - melted and forced into the mold under very high pressure (therefor High Impact).

The material is very inexpensive - so each model that you make with a given mold drops the price of each successive model as the cost of the mold is spread out over many thousands of presses.

Resin, on the other hand, is made in a rubber mold - under very low pressure - with the mold often spun to use centrifugal force to push the resin into the mold (sometimes called 'spin casting' for that reason). The molds are relatively inexpensive to make for both resin and for metal.

The material is a two part resin - and is a lot more expensive than the plastic beads used in the manufacture of HIP models.

The price of manufacture is not helped nearly as much by economy of scale, because the material used to make the models is the highest portion of the cost of manufacture.

Resin also has a much higher failure rate - if the mix is wrong, or is injected into the mold either too early or, more often, too late, or the spin is not at the right speed.

Metal, like resin, is cast in a soft mold under low impact - and has a much lower failure rate than resin.

However, metal is more expensive than resin, which is in turn more expensive than tiny plastic beads.

As far as GW and FW are concerned, the big difference is the economy of scale - resin works better for smaller amounts while plastic is less expensive when manufacturing larger amounts.

GW uses plastic - less expensive in large numbers. Hell, they use HIP plastics even when the economy of scale does not favor the use of that material.

FW uses resinous plastics - less expensive in small numbers, but suitable for a boutique company.

Finecast resin, on the other hand, was an abomination in the eyes of god - a low impact, high speed process that would have been okay under some circumstances, but not for models intended for a gaming table.

With GW switching to the less expensive material at the same time that they had yet another price hike.

*EDIT* Another choice is PVC - a low impact molten plastic forced into metal molds - but the material to make the mold, and the necessary precision, is a lot less expensive.

So Reaper uses PVC for their inexpensive Bones line of models.

PVC has its own set of advantages and disadvantages - but the important part is that the molds cost less than the ones used for HIP, but more than for resin, while the material used for making the models costs less than resin... and I think about the same as the beads used for HIP - but results in the model having a bit less detail.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Resin, on the other hand, is made in a rubber mold - under very low pressure - with the mold often spun to use centrifugal force to push the resin into the mold (sometimes called 'spin casting' for that reason). The molds are relatively inexpensive to make for both resin and for metal.

The material is a two part resin - and is a lot more expensive than the plastic beads used in the manufacture of HIP models.

The price of manufacture is not helped nearly as much by economy of scale, because the material used to make the models is the highest portion of the cost of manufacture.

Resin also has a much higher failure rate - if the mix is wrong, or is injected into the mold either too early or, more often, too late, or the spin is not at the right speed.

Metal, like resin, is cast in a soft mold under low impact - and has a much lower failure rate than resin.

However, metal is more expensive than resin, which is in turn more expensive than tiny plastic beads.

The major costs of HIPS and PVC are the mold. The major costs of resin is usually the 'man-power' to actually do the casting. And both materials have to pay an artists to actually make the dang thing.

Amazing how well someone can 'compete' in the marketplace when they don't have to pay an artist for the sculpt and don't have to pay a first-world salary and follow first-world employment laws to make the products. The cost of a product is often more than the sum of the parts.

nkelsch wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Resin, on the other hand, is made in a rubber mold - under very low pressure - with the mold often spun to use centrifugal force to push the resin into the mold (sometimes called 'spin casting' for that reason). The molds are relatively inexpensive to make for both resin and for metal.

The material is a two part resin - and is a lot more expensive than the plastic beads used in the manufacture of HIP models.

The price of manufacture is not helped nearly as much by economy of scale, because the material used to make the models is the highest portion of the cost of manufacture.

Resin also has a much higher failure rate - if the mix is wrong, or is injected into the mold either too early or, more often, too late, or the spin is not at the right speed.

Metal, like resin, is cast in a soft mold under low impact - and has a much lower failure rate than resin.

However, metal is more expensive than resin, which is in turn more expensive than tiny plastic beads.

The major costs of HIPS and PVC are the mold. The major costs of resin is usually the 'man-power' to actually do the casting. And both materials have to pay an artists to actually make the dang thing.

Amazing how well someone can 'compete' in the marketplace when they don't have to pay an artist for the sculpt and don't have to pay a first-world salary and follow first-world employment laws to make the products. The cost of a product is often more than the sum of the parts.

Which has nothing to do with the price of peanuts in Perth.

Aside from Bones, and a side argument on recasting, all products being discussed are being manufactured in first world countries.

We are comparing apples with apples here.

I do not use recasters - artists are worthy of their cut. I also do not buy GW - because while the artist should get their cut does not mean that I am willing to spend $25 for a piece of cheap plastic.

I go without - or I go to a third party manufacturer and buy something that is not a recast GW product.

I am willing to spend money and get a nice resin garbage truck* ork in mega-armor from Kromlech - but not willing to spend more to get a model from GW that does not look as nice.

The Auld Grump

* Believe it or not, that is a compliment. The model is not garbage - but the hydraulics and plating make me think of garbage trucks.

nkelsch wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

Resin, on the other hand, is made in a rubber mold - under very low pressure - with the mold often spun to use centrifugal force to push the resin into the mold (sometimes called 'spin casting' for that reason). The molds are relatively inexpensive to make for both resin and for metal.

The material is a two part resin - and is a lot more expensive than the plastic beads used in the manufacture of HIP models.

The price of manufacture is not helped nearly as much by economy of scale, because the material used to make the models is the highest portion of the cost of manufacture.

Resin also has a much higher failure rate - if the mix is wrong, or is injected into the mold either too early or, more often, too late, or the spin is not at the right speed.

Metal, like resin, is cast in a soft mold under low impact - and has a much lower failure rate than resin.

However, metal is more expensive than resin, which is in turn more expensive than tiny plastic beads.

The major costs of HIPS and PVC are the mold. The major costs of resin is usually the 'man-power' to actually do the casting. And both materials have to pay an artists to actually make the dang thing.

Amazing how well someone can 'compete' in the marketplace when they don't have to pay an artist for the sculpt and don't have to pay a first-world salary and follow first-world employment laws to make the products. The cost of a product is often more than the sum of the parts.

Have to?

Have? To?

I'm sorry, but GW, assuming that's who you're alluding to, choose to base their production in the UK. This is, presumably because they feel the advantages this brings outweigh the disadvantages and it makes them more money, or the same amount of money but with other advantages, as basing their manufacturing elsewhere in the world.

If this isn't the case, then it's the wrong choice.

We also know, from their own figures that their cost of designing, producing and manufacturing their products is an average of around 27% (up from ~23% due to the financial floundering) so we know there's plenty of headroom in the finished product, it's the massive money sink that is their retail chain that causes the issues. That includes paying their (salaried) sculptors and designers, there's no one-off commission costs or royalties to be paid.

Oh, and if the cost of a product ever exceeds the cost of it's parts, you forgot to include some parts in your costings.