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Slann are not daemons. Learn your lore git . If I remember correctly they are going after their own agendas, continuing the long fight against chaos and a grand plan of their own. Not much else is available AFAIK

RoperPG wrote:
You are *again* comparing the depth of a product that was designed, expanded and written over 30 years to one that is not even a year old.

"Depth" is one of those words that gets thrown around as a sort of contentless indication of quality, and it really shouldn't be. Thirty years of expansion has never made anything good. How was Star Wars doing after thirty years of tie-in drivel and horrible prequels? Anyone really want to say that Star Trek was rolling stronger than ever after five or six increasingly sterile series and endless forced films? I'm pretty sure you'll have a hard time finding people who think WHFB's last years were its best; hell, good luck finding anyone who's up on the material and thinks the Old World's golden age occurred in the last decade or two. Warmachine, Infinity, VOR, Warzone - all of these hit the market with strong, vital settings, and that's just off the top of my head. AoS is nine months in, and between the tide of battletomes, novels, short stories and audio dramas that have been pumped out, its word count towers above what any of those had after the same amount of time. Despite all that, it's still a feeble, unlovable fart of a universe. Even the game's biggest fans don't seem to think it's a particularly positive aspect of the product. That should probably tell you something.

This isn't just some little screw-up or momentary oversight on GW's part - it's the direct result of how they handle their IP anymore. Here's Aaron Dembski-Bowden on the writing process at Black Library these days:

A D-B wrote:

TDF wrote:Does the Black Library approach individual authors and ask them to write about faction X, or do they put out a general notice "if anyone wants to write about faction X, we need a short story done by Y date"? If you don't mind me asking.

 Most of the time it's the former, these days. I've not heard much of the latter. A rare few authors still traditionally pitch their own ideas rather than being asked to write to brief, but that's increasingly uncommon.

This isn't the sort of environment where people are going to chug along a track of trial-and-error for a few years, then finally bring forth something worth remembering. GW isn't a hungry little company looking for success anymore, they think they already have all the tools for success, and AoS is the setting they made with those tools. That it's not been a success should probably get them to re-think their priors in that regard, but I severely doubt they've got the wherewithal for that kind of self-examination. If they did, they probably wouldn't be in this situation.

coldgaming wrote:In all venues where it appears, I love the cry of "they're just doing it for the sales!" Sales, which by nature means appealing to the customers' desires, of course. And yet at the same time, these companies, GW in particular, get blamed for following their own desires and ignoring market research, which critics say would theoretically improve sales. Whatever is negative at any given moment is the side to be on.

When I tell you this, know that I am speaking from the experience of someone who has spent the last several years of his career within a sales environment: The fact that someone in sales thinks a thing will work very rarely has much to do with how likely it is that said thing will actually work. If we knew what we were doing with any real precision, we would already have all of your money, and you would be thanking us for it.

 Lexington wrote:

coldgaming wrote:In all venues where it appears, I love the cry of "they're just doing it for the sales!" Sales, which by nature means appealing to the customers' desires, of course. And yet at the same time, these companies, GW in particular, get blamed for following their own desires and ignoring market research, which critics say would theoretically improve sales. Whatever is negative at any given moment is the side to be on.

When I tell you this, know that I am speaking from the experience of someone who has spent the last several years of his career within a sales environment: The fact that someone in sales thinks a thing will work very rarely has much to do with how likely it is that said thing will actually work. If we knew what we were doing with any real precision, we would already have all of your money, and you would be thanking us for it.

I agree with that, but it's a bit of a tangent from my post. "They're just doing it for the sales" might have the implication of "they're just doing it for *what they think* will sell," but I've seen that statement rarely qualified as such.

But away from the literal interpretation, armchair commentators think they know how to run GW better than GW, think they know how to sell more models than GW (look at the comments about market research), but these perpetually critical people seem to fly with the wind of negativity more than a consistent perspective.

Basically, I was saying GW gets criticized by the same people for everything from Sunday: that they are only trying to sell models, that they are not trying *what the commentator thinks would work* to sell models, etc.

 CoreCommander wrote:
Slann are not daemons. Learn your lore git . If I remember correctly they are going after their own agendas, continuing the long fight against chaos and a grand plan of their own. Not much else is available AFAIK

Lol, I can't believe you just called me a git.

But you're right, they are going after their own agendas. Which just so happens to be a huge game of drawing dot-to-dot :-p

coldgaming wrote:

 Lexington wrote:

coldgaming wrote:In all venues where it appears, I love the cry of "they're just doing it for the sales!" Sales, which by nature means appealing to the customers' desires, of course. And yet at the same time, these companies, GW in particular, get blamed for following their own desires and ignoring market research, which critics say would theoretically improve sales. Whatever is negative at any given moment is the side to be on.

When I tell you this, know that I am speaking from the experience of someone who has spent the last several years of his career within a sales environment: The fact that someone in sales thinks a thing will work very rarely has much to do with how likely it is that said thing will actually work. If we knew what we were doing with any real precision, we would already have all of your money, and you would be thanking us for it.

I agree with that, but it's a bit of a tangent from my post. "They're just doing it for the sales" might have the implication of "they're just doing it for *what they think* will sell," but I've seen that statement rarely qualified as such.

But away from the literal interpretation, armchair commentators think they know how to run GW better than GW, think they know how to sell more models than GW (look at the comments about market research), but these perpetually critical people seem to fly with the wind of negativity more than a consistent perspective.

Basically, I was saying GW gets criticized by the same people for everything from Sunday: that they are only trying to sell models, that they are not trying *what the commentator thinks would work* to sell models, etc.

If they were trying to sell models they'd drop the price, they think they are selling collectable models, but they have the wrong set up for that.

Models for AoS and 40k are decorative wound counters that's what they are for but GW is trying to make out they are works of art you should put on display.

Simply put while they are great looking wound counters they are pretty bad by collectable standards, you can get a much superior kit for a tank for less than a rhino for example.

Asking £100 for seven cad designed models is insanity, as is the same price for 21 dwarves, wfb was expensive but it was far better value for money than anything AoS has presented.

GW is geared towards mass production so should be focused on sales by volume not it's current strategy of pretending it's the Apple of wargaming and raising prices to stupid levels assuming people will buy it because it's got games workshop on the box.

It's not required for you to work in the industry to understand how they are messing things up, just common sense.

I've brought this up many a time on Dakka but I will not believe they are a 'model' company and that the rules are unimportant until they move away from plastics for things like characters and monsters and start producing things like civilian models that have no rules, dioramas, or busts.

Until they do some of those basic, basic things that any model company would do they are a gaming company and need to realize that.

GW is geared towards mass production so should be focused on sales by volume not it's current strategy of pretending it's the Apple of wargaming and raising prices to stupid levels assuming people will buy it because it's got games workshop on the box.

It's not required for you to work in the industry to understand how they are messing things up, just common sense.

Really? It may or may not be true, but it feels like anything but common sense. You are selling something which is a hobby, for which people usually only spend so much spare money per month at most. Equally neither the collector nor the gammer needs volume, they only need the limited number of models to meet some goal - e.g. 1 Monster for the collection, or army. A unit for an army. You are aiming at a very small amount of population, with the vast majority being those who won't be interested no matter how cheap it is.

Who is buying this volume? The very few who buy 1000s of minis for vast collections, but are still on a budget of some description, and are already probably spending it on you - volume may sell more product but at lower profit. The young kid who has a few quid pocket money, and some Xmas/birthday money and if he's lucky can get a bit from parents. Having just got into the hobby they are probably already spending all they will on you due to 'buzz' factor as well. The rest who probably just spend X amount per month rounding out their army, and don't have time due to work/family etc to take on volumes of more minis, so might even spend less if it is cheaper.

Certainly for myself I would like cheaper (of course) but it might not make a big difference to how much stuff I bought as even now I don't keep up with what I buy, hence GW may get less money. I may make an extra impulse buy per month, but unless that makes up for losing on the cheaper price of what else I bought it may not be worth it.

Their will be some who might like volume sell, but it will be a minority. GW models are not some mass commodity product that eveyone wants yet more of. 99.95% of the population probably have zero interest in wargaming minis at all, so you aren't getting more from them no matter how cheap.

Lowering prices 'might' help, but not because they are looking for volume selling, but because they are looking for 'perceived value' to stop people moving away to KOW or whatever. Percieved value of course involves a lot more than just price and volume.

I think the point is that within the modeling hobby plastic is the mass produced material. Metal or resin produce better results than plastic, but are cheaper raw materials. Plastic has a higher up front expense as the moulds are more expensive to make, but once the moulds are paid off the material costs practically nothing. So if you expect to sell X number of units where X is significantly higher than the number needed to recoup the costs of the original mould then plastic is the most cost effective. If you expect to sell less than X metal or resin is better with larger costs per unit to produce, but much lower costs for the mould.

GW act like they are selling Ferrari, but everything about their production is aimed at mass producing with inferior materials because that is the most cost effective.

I think your point has been well and truly proven coldgaming!

Just waiting for Malerion's Shadow Daemons to show up.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I think the point is that within the modeling hobby plastic is the mass produced material. Metal or resin produce better results than plastic, but are cheaper raw materials. Plastic has a higher up front expense as the moulds are more expensive to make, but once the moulds are paid off the material costs practically nothing. So if you expect to sell X number of units where X is significantly higher than the number needed to recoup the costs of the original mould then plastic is the most cost effective. If you expect to sell less than X metal or resin is better with larger costs per unit to produce, but much lower costs for the mould.

GW act like they are selling Ferrari, but everything about their production is aimed at mass producing with inferior materials because that is the most cost effective.

Exactly they are not making limited runs for collectors they are mass producing models for a game over years.

Mass produced stuff very rarely if ever goes up in value, in the case of their failcast the model may not even last year's.

So if your mass producing an item you want to sell in bulk.

puree wrote:
Really? It may or may not be true, but it feels like anything but common sense. You are selling something which is a hobby, for which people usually only spend so much spare money per month at most. Equally neither the collector nor the gammer needs volume, they only need the limited number of models to meet some goal - e.g. 1 Monster for the collection, or army. A unit for an army. You are aiming at a very small amount of population, with the vast majority being those who won't be interested no matter how cheap it is.

But with the current pricing GW drives away money elsewhere. Rather than get X from person A the person A spends that X elsewhere. Why? They get better value fro money elsewhere.

Funny how other companies can provide better value for money when it's GW whose logistics is set up to OWN other companies in that regard. GW could swamp market with affordable high quality plastics but they won't. So other companies who can't afford to do it that easily(yet manage to do it anyway) gets to do that instead.

Gamers definitely need volume. Especially when GW has made their games so that one box is not enough. Sure modelers might just want one box of each but despite what GW seems to think those are not where bulk of sales come. That's from gamers who are buying 4+ boxes to get the armies playable.

Well. GW wants to not sell...Result is clear. In a world where other companies are INCREASING their sales GW is losing. 'nuff said about the effectivity of GW's strategy.

Point in fact the wargaming area went up 20% while gw continued to shrink.

There's plenty of interest in wargames right now as long as they are not made by gw.

Two factors come up again and again price and rules, the first they could fix easily and win back alot of customers who want to play but can't afford it.

The second I don't think they can fix without hiring new people.

But until they start communicating with people again and apologize for the crappy way they've acted for years they'll never rebuild the bridges they burnt.

No one's going to give gw the benefit of the doubt ever again.

hobojebus wrote:
Point in fact the wargaming area went up 20% while gw continued to shrink.

There's plenty of interest in wargames right now as long as they are not made by gw.

Two factors come up again and again price and rules, the first they could fix easily and win back alot of customers who want to play but can't afford it.

The second I don't think they can fix without hiring new people.

But until they start communicating with people again and apologize for the crappy way they've acted for years they'll never rebuild the bridges they burnt.

No one's going to give gw the benefit of the doubt ever again.

"Now Hobojebus, show us on the dolly where GW touched you..."

"Let the record show the witness pulled the little pockets out of the little dolly."

 jonolikespie wrote:
"Now Hobojebus, show us on the dolly where GW touched you..."

"Let the record show the witness pulled the little pockets out of the little dolly."

Haha!

Nah I'd point to my heart because seeing Kirby driving the company off a cliff hurts me.

I'm a 20 year vet I've played wfb and 40k for all that time but AoS killed fantasy games dead locally and 7th killed 40k so yeah I'm not happy with GW right now.

Which is why I haven't bought anything from them in years not even paint.

But non of that invalidates what I said.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I've brought this up many a time on Dakka but I will not believe they are a 'model' company and that the rules are unimportant until they move away from plastics for things like characters and monsters and start producing things like civilian models that have no rules, dioramas, or busts.

Until they do some of those basic, basic things that any model company would do they are a gaming company and need to realize that.

aside from the CHS case, where has GW officially stated that they are a model company only, and not a game company as well???
i am of the opinion that this is internet hyperbole that people have chosen to run with...
the business model statement says that the GW customer collects, paints, and plays with their minis, in that order of priority...

yes, rules are important, but it is mini sales that float every company in this genre...
how can PP, CB, and any other company that provides the rules for free survive, if it isn't doing so with sales of the miniatures???

funny enough, i own civilian models, dioramas, and busts from GW...
even funnier, GW has been about selling models first and foremost since day one, when Ansell took over from Jackson and Livingston...
the rules have always been a vehicle to sell models, and it is the same across the industry...

as for plastic not being worthy of collecting, that is rubbish...
a well done plastic kit is way more convenient to work with than a metal or resin mini, and has almost no chance of a miscast...
the amount or resin and metal minis that i've bought, only to have them show up in a horrible state is mind-blowing, yet i have never had to return a plastic mini...
KD and Wyrd have shown that plastics are amazing, if the GW prices and aesthetic are not for you...
i love my good resin casts, and enjoy working with metal, but plastic is king, and getting better all the time...

honestly, i get the price argument, especially from the Aussies and Kiwis, but not the material argument...
the end result of the look of a mini is way more important than the material used to cast it...
pvc has been a total pain, but metal, resin, and HIPS are all worthy materials...

i just bought the $70 Nuts Planet Shieldmaiden bust this weekend...
is it more worthy of being in a collection than the $30 Auric RuneMaster simply because it's resin???
i don't think so...
they both evoke a certain story, and do the job of inspiring a paint job equally for me...
different strokes for different folks...

cheers
jah

Officially?

Well there is all their investor reports which have stated it.

I don't know if you consider GW redshirts saying it official, but I do as it is clearly a response they have been trained to give to certain questions (like 'why do these rules suck?').

none of those investor reports say that they don't make games to be played with their minis, or that those minis are not intended to be used in their games...
this is why i keep saying that the whole "we are a mini company" thing is taken out of context, and then to the extreme...

there was a lot of gameplay going on at the convention i attended last weekend, both for 40K and AoS...
the LVO just happened the weekend before, and had a large attendance, so i would say that the rules sucking is pretty much a personal call, and one that not everyone agrees with...
plenty of people still play...

if you want to be angry at GW's direction, that's understandable, but i don't see as much hate in person as i do online...
personally, i've never had a redshirt tell me that GW is not a game company...
they try to push core box purchases, after all...
of course, i go into GW stores to share my love of the settings, and show off nicely painted minis, rather than harass the redshirt, and put him on the spot...

it is very obvious that GW makes games, produces art, and has fiction written to make people want to buy models, just like every other big name in the industry...
i don't see why that is a problem...

cheers
jah

And your thoughts on the fluff .......?

The last entry in the swirly time line in Balance of power mentions a roar from Dracothion and gates unlocking in the vaults extremis. So Vandus coming back from the dead(again) on a big ass dragon to fight Archaon?

TheWanderer wrote:
And your thoughts on the fluff .......?

i like the fluff...
Chris Wraight, Guy Haley, and Josh Reynolds are all authors that i enjoy reading...

i think that blowing up the Old World was a ballsy move...
there is now a whole new setting to explore, and i can still enjoy my Old World and Time of Legends novels just as much as i did before...

i like the Asgardian nature of the Stormcast...
i like that Khorne is still taking skulls, and Nurgle has taken up gardening...

i am patient, so as much as i would want to know about the Shadowkin, i can wait...
the Fyreslayers are a cool concept, so i'm stoked we have gotten to them...

all i ask of fiction is that it entertains me...
GW has always done the job since the very first WHF Roleplay rulebook and the Ignorant Armies anthology...

the best part is, that everything feels new and fresh again...
i look forward to learning more about what is going on...
not that i ever felt like the Old World had gotten stale, but the Time of Legends novels were a really cool move by GW, and a lot of fun to read...
the AoS setting gives me that same desire to explore new things...

cheers
jah