Do too many people play Space Marines?

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**Martel732**

Loyalist SM were one of the worst lists in 2nd ed as well.

**Lanrak**

The problem is most players expect the focus of the rules to be on game play.This means each army has its own play style with bonuses and set backs.

And most players would expect the factions background to determine the play style to be represented in the game play.And all armies to be treated equally .

Unfortunately GW plc is focused on selling toy soldiers to children, so the moist popular toy soldiers get the most marketing.
This has a negative effect on long term game play and game balance.And eventually a massively negative effect on sales volumes.

**Martel732**

"Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......"

DA, yes, but IG ignores cover shenanigans hard counter them. IG are head and shoulders above BA in the loser bracket. Because shooting works.

**Ashiraya**

master of ordinance wrote:

Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......

Allow me to introduce you to your friend. His name is 'Wyvern' and he doesn't like it when you pretend he does not exist.

*tips horned PA helmet*

**Kanluwen**

Martel732 wrote:
"Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......"

DA, yes, but IG ignores cover shenanigans hard counter them. IG are head and shoulders above BA in the loser bracket. Because shooting works.

What "Ignores Cover" shenanigans do Guard have?

1) Wyverns. It's a Chimera hull--if you can't kill it; you've got other issues.
2) Orders. Kill the Officers, Orders are gone. Kaput. Meeped.

You say Guard hardcounter DA; I say play DA better.

**Martel732**

Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......"

DA, yes, but IG ignores cover shenanigans hard counter them. IG are head and shoulders above BA in the loser bracket. Because shooting works.

What "Ignores Cover" shenanigans do Guard have?

1) Wyverns. It's a Chimera hull--if you can't kill it; you've got other issues.
2) Orders. Kill the Officers, Orders are gone. Kaput. Meeped.

You say Guard hardcounter DA; I say play DA better.

6 X divination psykers and a bunch of ignore cover orders usually does the trick. I should have said that particular build hard counters them.

I've seen many DA lists that can't do much at range. Wyvern seems bad for them.

**SGTPozy**

Martel732 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......"

DA, yes, but IG ignores cover shenanigans hard counter them. IG are head and shoulders above BA in the loser bracket. Because shooting works.

What "Ignores Cover" shenanigans do Guard have?

1) Wyverns. It's a Chimera hull--if you can't kill it; you've got other issues.
2) Orders. Kill the Officers, Orders are gone. Kaput. Meeped.

You say Guard hardcounter DA; I say play DA better.

6 X divination psykers and a bunch of ignore cover orders usually does the trick. I should have said that particular build hard counters them.

I've seen many DA lists that can't do much at range. Wyvern seems bad for them.

That's list tailoring though...

**Martel732**

No, that's this guy's TAC list. It's not terrible as far as guard goes. The divination guys can make MCs miserable with misfortune. Even Wraithknights don't like misfortune FRFSRF. Is it a world beater? No.

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
"Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......"

DA, yes, but IG ignores cover shenanigans hard counter them. IG are head and shoulders above BA in the loser bracket. Because shooting works.

What "Ignores Cover" shenanigans do Guard have?

1) Wyverns. It's a Chimera hull--if you can't kill it; you've got other issues.
2) Orders. Kill the Officers, Orders are gone. Kaput. Meeped.

You say Guard hardcounter DA; I say play DA better.

6 X divination psykers and a bunch of ignore cover orders usually does the trick. I should have said that particular build hard counters them.

I've seen many DA lists that can't do much at range. Wyvern seems bad for them.

6x divination psykers? Do you know how much those cost to bring? That is (assuming no other upgrades and all ML 1) 300 points at its cheapest, using 6 Primaris Psykers, and each of them dies so easily it is not even funny.

Ashiraya wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:

Give that DA and to an extent BA are still further up the power scale than Guard......

Allow me to introduce you to your friend. His name is 'Wyvern' and he doesn't like it when you pretend he does not exist.

*tips horned PA helmet*

Allow me to introduce you to my friend wallet. He is not happy with having to shell out for six new tanks.

Also allow me to introduce you too:
-Drop pods
-Deep strike units
-transports
-tanks

And thats just off the top of my head. In short, the only thing the Wyvern is good against are Infantry units. Against anything else it is a waste of time and if the enemy so much as caches a whiff of it it is dead.

**Martel732**

He uses 6 X psykers. He wins a lot more than you do evidently. 300 is a pittance for the utility they bring. BA pay 300 and get 15 useless fools in power armor.

"-Drop pods
-Deep strike units
-transports
-tanks "

Blood Angels have these things and are still god-awful. These things can all clearly be overcome.

**master of ordinance**

Martel732 wrote:
He uses 6 X psykers. He wins a lot more than you do evidently. 300 is a pittance for the utility they bring. BA pay 300 and get 15 useless fools in power armor.

Given that for 15 points more you can get a Marine Librarian with power armour, better LD, better equipment and better stats the Primaris is laughable. It would be better to ally with a Libby Conclave.

"-Drop pods
-Deep strike units
-transports
-tanks "

Blood Angels have these things and are still god-awful. These things can all clearly be overcome.

With what?
You seem to forget the Guard have nadda that can counter DS unts and our AT is mainly limited to overpriced and ineffective units and close ranged melta weapons.

**Jewelfox**

I think the point of this thread was that space marines are over-represented, not that all space marine lists (including BA and DA) are overpowered. ^^;

Angels of Death gave them a few new toys, IIRC? But it's Codex: Space Marines armies that get most of the stuff, and no one here seems to dispute that. People are just arguing over whether or not that's how it should be.

The thing is, even if you feel that Space Marines should be the default -- that they're as iconic to 40k as warjacks are to Warmachine -- I feel like Privateer Press handles "minor factions with quirky rules" much better than GW. Just look at the Convergence of Cyriss; PP said upfront that they were a "limited release" faction, which would receive less support, and carefully balanced their weird and unique abilities against everyone else's. They also updated Convergence's rules to keep pace with the new game edition, and they did so at the same time as they updated everything else.

The only reason we can't have that in 40k is because GW hasn't made that kind of even-handedness a priority.

**Dantes_Baals**

master of ordinance wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
He uses 6 X psykers. He wins a lot more than you do evidently. 300 is a pittance for the utility they bring. BA pay 300 and get 15 useless fools in power armor.

Given that for 15 points more you can get a Marine Librarian with power armour, better LD, better equipment and better stats the Primaris is laughable. It would be better to ally with a Libby Conclave.

"-Drop pods
-Deep strike units
-transports
-tanks "

Blood Angels have these things and are still god-awful. These things can all clearly be overcome.

With what?
You seem to forget the Guard have nadda that can counter DS unts and our AT is mainly limited to overpriced and ineffective units and close ranged melta weapons.

Seriously? If you don't know how to counter a unit that has to sit there and eat mouthfuls of close range IG shooting, there is nothing any of us can do or say to help you. Again, not trying to be rude, just fact.

Also 300 points seems like a lot. Keep in mind though not only will you have 6x Prescience (invaluable for guard) you will also most likely have every other divination power. Everything from ignores cover, to 4+ invuln, to Rending shots. Combi this with PLATOONS with special and heavy weapons squads and it becomes crazy effective.

Again Ill bring up the 300 points. A bike conclave at ml2 per libby is 320. If I lose ONE librarian it's crippled on top of the errata nerfs. Get a bad perils with a 25 point psyker? No prob. 5 more to go. 300 points on divination psykers is a great investment if used properly.

If you really want to sell your argument, just humor everyone trying to help and run a platoon based list with the psykers, platoons and wyverns (proxy for all any reasonable person cares). Run a couple vendettas (proxy if you have to) and you should still have a few hundred left to spend on whatever. A pair of demolishers or punishers. Maybe both if you can afford it. Heck, you can afford a dakka knight for 425. I know for a FACT I could mulch any marine player at my LGS with what I just suggested. Try it out and report back.

On a side note: don't IG have an order that gives ignores cover?

**Xathrodox86**

Martel732 wrote:
Selym wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Jewelfox wrote:
Red Marine wrote:
Check your Marine Privilege, marine players!

You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.

When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.

I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.

Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.

I couldn't agree more. My LR's get one, lucky hit. "Maaaan Marines have s***ty tanks. It dosen't matter that he can destroy my "OP" LR's with a single AM squad, right after deep strike, using a formation that SM do possess.

Not to mention, their complete lack of empathy towards other players. "Yeah, I know you IG codex is from the last edition, but I'm wondering if GW will release the new SM dex this year. What? A new edition is coming, it's natural that SM should get new codex. What's so strange with that?"

Give me a break.

They're so getting used to having the best stuff, that many of them can't even understand what's it like to not being on the very top. They don't understand that there are people playing other armies, than them. They don't understand that their attitude is toxic, childish and making others hurt and irritated at them, especially if they can't help but use snide comments during game, when their broken-as-hell (and cheap!) unit steamrolls the strongest thing in their opponent's army, which could be taken out easily with anything else that they have.

Space Marines, at this point, are simply hurtful to the hobby. They bring new players, who won't be able to leave their comfort zone and try something else, something more challenging ("Orks are horrible! I'd play them, but their codex is old and they are weak!"). They bring players that treat those with weaker codexes like crap ("You're playing Nids? How does it feel to loose all the time?").

They are using childish and absurd arguments like "SM are a poster army. It's normal that GW would make them the strongest faction." They forget, or rather pretend not to notice, that this is a tabletop GAME and
such games should be BALANCED to be playable and fun. Certainly they should not be some douchebag's private "I will feel better once I'll table this sucker" member-enlargement sessions.

Of course there are those, who don't act like that, but in my lengthy experience, they are few and in between. I honestly never met a single SM player that didn't exhibit tendencies, like those I've just described.

Hawky wrote:The main problem isn't amount of SM players. The main problem is that GW is neglecting and overlooking other factions because of Space Marines.

Not to mention giving them the best toys. The most effective anti-SM weapons (Grav weapons) are marine-exclusive...

This.
GW loves Space Marines to the near exclusion of all else and this is resulting in them getting all the toys whilst other factions are being left behind with 6th edition codexs, many of which where just half arsed bashes of the older codex with a few bits changed up.
Quite simply put: We other factions feel left out. Where are our toys.

In a wonderful, alternate reality, where all the codexes are balanced and SM players are not a priviledged group in our hobby.

**Dantes_Baals**

Xathrodox86 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Selym wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:
Jewelfox wrote:
Red Marine wrote:
Check your Marine Privilege, marine players!

You say that in jest, but I know it'd make my life easier if some Space Marine players felt a little less entitled, and had a little more perspective and self-awareness. Or got a little less into character as the hateful murderers that they play.

When's the last time there was widespread nerd rage over a C:SM release? Even the broken powers in Angels of Death didn't inspire the kind of visceral hatred that stuff like the Stormsurge and Riptide got. Srsly, if you think GW's spoiling us non-human factions now, just imagine if Taudar got the kind of release schedule that codex SM get.

I can second this - it does seem that some Marine players seem to feel that their army of choice gives them some special status that raises them above us all.
This is sadly my experience. I have yet to come across a person who uses C:SM as their primary army that wasn't a tfg about it. Irl, ofc.

Killed a terminator with lasguns? Guardsmen are op.
Predator rolls a 1 to wound against a CSM unit? CSM are too cheap.
Used an Ap3 weapon that scores a kill? Too much Ap3 in the game, SM shouldn't have to pay for power armour.
Gladius gives free transports? CSM formations are worse.
BT joined C:SM but can't use the formations without breaking fluff? Shoulda got their own codex.
Lost to C:SM? Git gud scrub.

I couldn't agree more. My LR's get one, lucky hit. "Maaaan Marines have s***ty tanks. It dosen't matter that he can destroy my "OP" LR's with a single AM squad, right after deep strike, using a formation that SM do possess.

Not to mention, their complete lack of empathy towards other players. "Yeah, I know you IG codex is from the last edition, but I'm wondering if GW will release the new SM dex this year. What? A new edition is coming, it's natural that SM should get new codex. What's so strange with that?"

Give me a break.

They're so getting used to having the best stuff, that many of them can't even understand what's it like to not being on the very top. They don't understand that there are people playing other armies, than them. They don't understand that their attitude is toxic, childish and making others hurt and irritated at them, especially if they can't help but use snide comments during game, when their broken-as-hell (and cheap!) unit steamrolls the strongest thing in their opponent's army, which could be taken out easily with anything else that they have.

Space Marines, at this point, are simply hurtful to the hobby. They bring new players, who won't be able to leave their comfort zone and try something else, something more challenging ("Orks are horrible! I'd play them, but their codex is old and they are weak!"). They bring players that treat those with weaker codexes like crap ("You're playing Nids? How does it feel to loose all the time?").

They are using childish and absurd arguments like "SM are a poster army. It's normal that GW would make them the strongest faction." They forget, or rather pretend not to notice, that this is a tabletop GAME and
such games should be BALANCED to be playable and fun. Certainly they should not be some douchebag's private "I will feel better once I'll table this sucker" member-enlargement sessions.

Of course there are those, who don't act like that, but in my lengthy experience, they are few and in between. I honestly never met a single SM player that didn't exhibit tendencies, like those I've just described.

Hawky wrote:The main problem isn't amount of SM players. The main problem is that GW is neglecting and overlooking other factions because of Space Marines.

Not to mention giving them the best toys. The most effective anti-SM weapons (Grav weapons) are marine-exclusive...

This.
GW loves Space Marines to the near exclusion of all else and this is resulting in them getting all the toys whilst other factions are being left behind with 6th edition codexs, many of which where just half arsed bashes of the older codex with a few bits changed up.
Quite simply put: We other factions feel left out. Where are our toys.

In a wonderful, alternate reality, where all the codexes are balanced and SM players are not a priviledged group in our hobby.

Did a SM player mushroom stamp your sister or something? I mean I get being frustrated with GW for their unsavory release schedule. Or marines themselves because of redundant games or because of some of the silly gak they get. But that kind of disdain for the players doesn't seem rational at all. As many places as I've been marines are about in the middle of the pack as far as personality. For some reason a few limited stores act like SM TFG meccas or people are really blowing gak out of proportion.

**Selym**

It's from irl experiences. That and an enormous predominance of marines on the TT has given us a bad case of overexposure. Note that in the very large number of threads these experiences have been quoted in, there had never been a response indicating that such behaviour is common in people whose primary army is not C:SM.

**Dantes_Baals**

Selym wrote:
It's from irl experiences. That and an enormous predominance of marines on the TT has given us a bad case of overexposure. Note that in the very large number of threads these experiences have been quoted in, there had never been a response indicating that such behaviour is common in people whose primary army is not C:SM.

I find it odd that a game would spark that kind of the bitterness against the actual players though. It seems incredibly stupid to me. It would be if I tried to claim all Tau players are wife-beating scumbags. I mean I don't like playing tau. I don't think the army fits very well into 40k and very much a money grab on the anime crowd. It stops with the army though. I only dislike one Tau player and that's because he's a prick. Nothing to do with the army he plays. I find it odd that it's always the same 2 or 3 posters claiming these "irl" experiences occur in the regular. Given such a low amount of people making claims wouldn't it suggest the opposite about marine players?

I mean I don't doubt people run into TFG marine players every now and then. But the same few people who post their "anecdotes" have this problem with every marine player. Yet they still play them. It tells me that half the stories are either exaggerated or BS. Or even that they may be the problem themselves. As I said, I don't doubt there are d-bag SM players out there. Doesn't make sense to hold an Axe to grind against all SM players in general though.

**Arbitrator**

The 40k setting and hobby would be about a thousand times more interesting if all of the Space Marines vanished one day.

Except maybe Chaos Space Marines. At least it makes sense when they fight each other so much.

When Tau or Eldar get a shiny new overpowered toy it's not fair, but Space Marines should be able to get and use anything and everything that's overpower because "your army was OP ten years ago" or something. It turns into a big echo chamber where a lot of Space Marine players - not necessarily most - act as if they're entitled to every shiny and overpowered piece of kit, but everybody else is just whiny, because they're so used to being daddy's favourite for so long. Yeah, Black Templars totally need their own Codex to tell you that you can take Scouts in Tactical Squads.

**Selym**

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Selym wrote:
It's from irl experiences. That and an enormous predominance of marines on the TT has given us a bad case of overexposure. Note that in the very large number of threads these experiences have been quoted in, there had never been a response indicating that such behaviour is common in people whose primary army is not C:SM.

I find it odd that a game would spark that kind of the bitterness against the actual players though. It seems incredibly stupid to me. It would be if I tried to claim all Tau players are wife-beating scumbags. I mean I don't like playing tau. I don't think the army fits very well into 40k and very much a money grab on the anime crowd. It stops with the army though. I only dislike one Tau player and that's because he's a prick. Nothing to do with the army he plays. I find it odd that it's always the same 2 or 3 posters claiming these "irl" experiences occur in the regular. Given such a low amount of people making claims wouldn't it suggest the opposite about marine players?

I mean I don't doubt people run into TFG marine players every now and then. But the same few people who post their "anecdotes" have this problem with every marine player. Yet they still play them. It tells me that half the stories are either exaggerated or BS. Or even that they may be the problem themselves. As I said, I don't doubt there are d-bag SM players out there. Doesn't make sense to hold an Axe to grind against all SM players in general though.

As far as I can tell, we're commenting only on players we know in person. And then expanding that trend into statements that thus far have gone largely uncontested. The phenomenon has not really been know to occur outside of true TFG's - and they jump from army to army based on what is most op at the time.

**master of ordinance**

Arbitrator wrote:
The 40k setting and hobby would be about a thousand times more interesting if all of the Space Marines vanished one day.

Except maybe Chaos Space Marines. At least it makes sense when they fight each other so much.

When Tau or Eldar get a shiny new overpowered toy it's not fair, but Space Marines should be able to get and use anything and everything that's overpower because "your army was OP ten years ago" or something. It turns into a big echo chamber where a lot of Space Marine players - not necessarily most - act as if they're entitled to every shiny and overpowered piece of kit, but everybody else is just whiny, because they're so used to being daddy's favourite for so long. Yeah, Black Templars totally need their own Codex to tell you that you can take Scouts in Tactical Squads.

I am not sure about having them vanish, but removing them from the limelight and giving the other factions a bit of love and attention would definitely go a long way.

**Kanluwen**

Arbitrator wrote:
The 40k setting and hobby would be about a thousand times more interesting if all of the Space Marines vanished one day.

Except maybe Chaos Space Marines. At least it makes sense when they fight each other so much.

Have you read any of the Badab War? Cause that makes pretty good sense as to why you had Astartes fighting Astartes.

**Xathrodox86**

Did a SM player mushroom stamp your sister or something? I mean I get being frustrated with GW for their unsavory release schedule. Or marines themselves because of redundant games or because of some of the silly gak they get. But that kind of disdain for the players doesn't seem rational at all. As many places as I've been marines are about in the middle of the pack as far as personality. For some reason a few limited stores act like SM TFG meccas or people are really blowing gak out of proportion.

In the future please avoid comments about my family. Thank you.

I don't have disdain for Marine players. If you'd read my post more carefully, you'd notice that I've mentioned that not all of them are d-bags. I haven't actually met those people yet, but I do know that they exist. Even my closest gaming buddies, when playing SM, turn into sperg lords. Unfortunately.

It's from irl experiences. That and an enormous predominance of marines on the TT has given us a bad case of overexposure. Note that in the very large number of threads these experiences have been quoted in, there had never been a response indicating that such behaviour is common in people whose primary army is not C:SM.

Precisely. The SM playerbase has the most obnoxious players, simply because it is the biggest of them all. I've never met a Tau, Guard or Nid player who'd be rude, arrogant and filled with such ammounts of self righteousness, that it's almost scary. Now marine ones - they have them crawling out of the woodwork.

I mean I don't doubt people run into TFG marine players every now and then. But the same few people who post their "anecdotes" have this problem with every marine player. Yet they still play them. It tells me that half the stories are either exaggerated or BS. Or even that they may be the problem themselves. As I said, I don't doubt there are d-bag SM players out there. Doesn't make sense to hold an Axe to grind against all SM players in general though.

They're not anecdotes. They're facts, derived from personall experience. I'm not telling someone elses story about how that one time, he met an SM player that was a douchenozzle. I'm telling about my own experiences in that matter, or my friend's expieriences. And of course I play against SM. It's impossible not to, given how many of them are out there. My best mate plays them and he's insufferable when he does it, but as soon as he switches to his Orks, his character and manners improve greatly. Funny story, eh?

When Tau or Eldar get a shiny new overpowered toy it's not fair, but Space Marines should be able to get and use anything and everything that's overpower because "your army was OP ten years ago" or something. It turns into a big echo chamber where a lot of Space Marine players - not necessarily most - act as if they're entitled to every shiny and overpowered piece of kit, but everybody else is just whiny, because they're so used to being daddy's favourite for so long. Yeah, Black Templars totally need their own Codex to tell you that you can take Scouts in Tactical Squads.

"I think that GW should release codex for every, single chapter", "I think that GW should make a codex for Blood Ravens, because they've brought so many people into the hobby", "Of course we get the best toys, we are the Imperium's premier fighting force", "Our last codex was three months ago? Time for a new one! What? The Nids had theirs release 5 years ago? Screw them".

And so on, and so on, and so on...

**Davor**

Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

I saw a few post stating "Sense of Entitlement" I'd agree in 6th ed and until the new codex came out in 7th boy were the majority of SM players full of complaints about how they should be on top dogs....cause SM are supposed to be ultra elite and the what not.

Funny they don't play them that way though, do they? If they are suppose to be an Elite army how come most people or a lot of people don't play them that way at all.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Xathrodox86 wrote:
Did a SM player mushroom stamp your sister or something? I mean I get being frustrated with GW for their unsavory release schedule. Or marines themselves because of redundant games or because of some of the silly gak they get. But that kind of disdain for the players doesn't seem rational at all. As many places as I've been marines are about in the middle of the pack as far as personality. For some reason a few limited stores act like SM TFG meccas or people are really blowing gak out of proportion.

In the future please avoid comments about my family. Thank you.

I don't have disdain for Marine players. If you'd read my post more carefully, you'd notice that I've mentioned that not all of them are d-bags. I haven't actually met those people yet, but I do know that they exist. Even my closest gaming buddies, when playing SM, turn into sperg lords. Unfortunately.

Which only applies to your friends, unfortunately. I fail to see how you can apply your friends turning into "sperg lords" to the entire faction.

It's from irl experiences. That and an enormous predominance of marines on the TT has given us a bad case of overexposure. Note that in the very large number of threads these experiences have been quoted in, there had never been a response indicating that such behaviour is common in people whose primary army is not C:SM.

Precisely. The SM playerbase has the most obnoxious players, simply because it is the biggest of them all. I've never met a Tau, Guard or Nid player who'd be rude, arrogant and filled with such ammounts of self righteousness, that it's almost scary. Now marine ones - they have them crawling out of the woodwork.

And this is where percentages kicks in.

Assuming that SM players aren't any more likely to be TFG than any other player, simply by having more people who play SM as a primary army would mean there are more TFGs who play Space Marines. It's like saying that, if there was a fully 50% male/female split, that because a larger country has more women, that country is more popular with women. Instead, it's because the size is bigger, leading to more women. There ARE TFG Tau, Guard and Nid players - I've met at least one for each. However, you see less compared to SM TFGs because there are so many SM players, and whilst the proportion may be the same, the larger faction size means that portion is larger than other factions.

If we really wanted to study "Does playing SM make you more TFG", we would take a randomly selected sample of each faction's player base, and measure levels of TFG-ness (if that were possible). That would give a correct answer.

I mean I don't doubt people run into TFG marine players every now and then. But the same few people who post their "anecdotes" have this problem with every marine player. Yet they still play them. It tells me that half the stories are either exaggerated or BS. Or even that they may be the problem themselves. As I said, I don't doubt there are d-bag SM players out there. Doesn't make sense to hold an Axe to grind against all SM players in general though.

They're not anecdotes. They're facts, derived from personall experience. I'm not telling someone elses story about how that one time, he met an SM player that was a douchenozzle. I'm telling about my own experiences in that matter, or my friend's expieriences. And of course I play against SM. It's impossible not to, given how many of them are out there. My best mate plays them and he's insufferable when he does it, but as soon as he switches to his Orks, his character and manners improve greatly. Funny story, eh?

Still anecdotes. This may have happened, but it doesn't allow for you to generalise. I could give countless anecdotes (sorry, FACTS) about SM players I know who aren't TFG, and are pleasant people to play. They're just as valid as what you've said.
Again, your "funny story" is only generalisable to your best mate - not to all SM players.

When Tau or Eldar get a shiny new overpowered toy it's not fair, but Space Marines should be able to get and use anything and everything that's overpower because "your army was OP ten years ago" or something. It turns into a big echo chamber where a lot of Space Marine players - not necessarily most - act as if they're entitled to every shiny and overpowered piece of kit, but everybody else is just whiny, because they're so used to being daddy's favourite for so long. Yeah, Black Templars totally need their own Codex to tell you that you can take Scouts in Tactical Squads.

"I think that GW should release codex for every, single chapter", "I think that GW should make a codex for Blood Ravens, because they've brought so many people into the hobby", "Of course we get the best toys, we are the Imperium's premier fighting force", "Our last codex was three months ago? Time for a new one! What? The Nids had theirs release 5 years ago? Screw them".

And so on, and so on, and so on...

Welcome to a vocal minority. I've never seen anyone ask seriously for a Blood Raven CODEX - a supplement, maybe, a Chapter Tactic perhaps. Not a full codex.
I've never seen anyone advocate for EVERY Chapter getting a codex.
Again, never seen an SM player outright say "Screw X Faction because only SM should get codex updates. Most, if not all, SM players I know would be agreeing wholeheartedly with the Nid player that they should get their new codex.

These are not indicative of the SM playerbase as a general.

**Ashiraya**

master of ordinance wrote:
Allow me to introduce you to my friend wallet. He is not happy with having to shell out for six new tanks.

Irrelevant. Drop pods for every squad is not exactly free either.

**OgreChubbs**

Of course space marines are not over powered and over played. On a side note do you know they have an entire game made up of rainbow marine wars?

It is called 30 kolours. And here is the best part there is like even biggerer people in it, so cool

**Jewelfox**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:

If we really wanted to study "Does playing SM make you more TFG", we would take a randomly selected sample of each faction's player base, and measure levels of TFG-ness (if that were possible). That would give a correct answer.

You could do a scientific survey, but as most of this stuff is subjective you might have to disguise the intent. Like by using the authoritarian personality quotient, which feels out how much someone relishes the idea of punishing children and nonconformists.

I don't feel that that would be needed, though, because this is stuff that there are best practices and a body of knowledge for already. Thanks to the social sciences, we already know that inequality is a root cause of exactly the kinds of problems we're seeing among 40k players. Meanwhile, the communities for competing games like Warmachine give us examples of what less-unequal social groups in the miniatures hobby are like.

tl;dr The problem isn't that TFGs play C:SM, it's that playing C:SM makes it more likely that you will develop TFG traits and think yourself reasonable the whole time. We can solve this not by insulting and stigmatizing C:SM players, but by levelling the playing field, recognizing how inequality creates bias that we need to consciously correct for, and managing people's expectations better.

**Crimson Devil**

40k unlike in the real world, inequality is a choice. You can change armies anytime you like. You can refuse to play anyone you don't want to. Or even join the ranks of TFGs and play Space Marines.

**Jewelfox**

Crimson Devil wrote:
40k unlike in the real world, inequality is a choice. You can change armies anytime you like. You can refuse to play anyone you don't want to. Or even join the ranks of TFGs and play Space Marines.

This is demonstrably untrue. There are a number of factors that keep people from switching factions, including the obvious (lack of time or money) and the less obvious (when you simply can't identify with C:SM). Besides that, why should people have to start all over with modelling and collecting, just because someone else doesn't like what they play? I think Space Marines are overrated and unfairly favoured, but I'm not going around telling SM players they need to just quit and play IG. They aren't the ones who caused the problem, and the fact that they play SM isn't itself a problem.

Also, you can refuse to play against people, but you can't stop them from being adversarial and intolerant, and making communities toxic for you.

I personally got very into the Tau and their models and characters. Then I came here to ask how I could make it more fun to play against them, since I want my gaming partners to enjoy themselves. Pretty soon Space Marine players were telling me I should burn my models, or play Infinity (but not 40k) with them, and that it's a profound injustice that pulse rifles are better than bolters. I am not joking.

**Dantes_Baals**

Jewelfox wrote:
Crimson Devil wrote:
40k unlike in the real world, inequality is a choice. You can change armies anytime you like. You can refuse to play anyone you don't want to. Or even join the ranks of TFGs and play Space Marines.

This is demonstrably untrue. There are a number of factors that keep people from switching factions, including the obvious (lack of time or money) and the less obvious (when you simply can't identify with C:SM). Besides that, why should people have to start all over with modelling and collecting, just because someone else doesn't like what they play? I think Space Marines are overrated and unfairly favoured, but I'm not going around telling SM players they need to just quit and play IG. They aren't the ones who caused the problem, and the fact that they play SM isn't itself a problem.

Also, you can refuse to play against people, but you can't stop them from being adversarial and intolerant, and making communities toxic for you.

I personally got very into the Tau and their models and characters. Then I came here to ask how I could make it more fun to play against them, since I want my gaming partners to enjoy themselves. Pretty soon Space Marine players were telling me I should burn my models, or play Infinity (but not 40k) with them, and that it's a profound injustice that pulse rifles are better than bolters. I am not joking.

If you want to make some of the TFG SM players swallow some humble pie, play games where you and your opponent swap armies. This is a good thing on a multitude of levels. Obviously it can and usually does break up the monotony of playing the same army (for both players), it'll familiarize more players with the rules of other armies and for those people playing the power armies, hopefully it will help them empathize with and realize the plight of the have-nots codices.

Also on a separate note: that's exactly why I stayed away from your thread about making Tau more interesting. I mean I definitely respect your desire to help improve games for your opponents, but I knew a few idiots (not just SM ones) would turn that thread into a moan-fest and it would spiral down hill from there. That just tends to happen in most Tau related threads sadly. Even though I'm not a fan of the army, I've got no reason to badger Tau players for playing what they like. Especially if they are trying to diversify in the interest of more fun for all parties.