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Yeah, word bearers are really getting some love there. FW seems to like taking a certain style and then cranking it all the way up to 11.

 Deadshot wrote:
(lots of words about Sigismund's pose)

Kudos for tackling this, and I'm no expert, but most of the stuff you're saying about what he could transition to is just silly. Yes, if he stepped forward, put both hands on his sword, and brought the sword over his head, he'd be in position for an overhead strike that would bisect his opponent. And if he transitioned to inverted, he'd be doing a handstand. Point is this pose is nowhere near any of those things, even if they're things he could transition to. Talking about all the stances or actions he could be doing if only his pose was totally different just distracts from the issue at hand - the pose he's modeled in is sort of awkward.

If he's doing anything dynamic at all, he's drawn completely back for a thrust forward, but he doesn't look particularly dynamic to me. There's no arguing it, really: his feet are completely flat. If he's supposed to be in motion, it's a poor choice, because the sculptor picked a snapshot in time that is completely indistinguishable from a static stance.

What it really looks like he's doing is facing down his opponent in an inside/guard stance. He's posed to parry or thrust, but he isn't doing either yet. He's got one hand out because that's what they do in movies, although it's not like he'll have any trouble with speed or strength with one hand.

I think the sculptor went with this to emphasize that he's a duelist. He looks like he's just challenged an enemy champion, and they're circling before they clash. The strange smirk on his face reinforces this. His pose is fairly static, but it has tension - ready to strike, an expert swordsman, etc. Whether he's just drawn back and is going for a thrust, or is on guard, there is no motion in his stance, just tension. It's sort of appropriate, but I don't know if it was really a good choice.

I think the reason people (including me) have trouble with it is because it's static, and at the same time so very at odds with every Emperor's champion pose (that and his oddly proportioned head). I would have preferred him either more dynamic, if they want him to be fighting, or more heroic, in a stereotypical inspiring pose, to echo the Emperor's champion. If they really wanted to go with this pose, change his expression and his footing to look like he's actually transitioning to a forward thrust. The robes are already flowing in the right direction, all they would really need to do is lift his back heel, rotate his hips slightly, and shift his center of gravity to give him forward motion, then change his smirk to more of a grimace, and he would look like he was fighting someone.

 Fireball wrote:
FW Bulletin #64:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/FORGE_WORLD_BULLETIN_64.html



Well, who is this special character going to be?

At first I hoped it was Argel Tal... But wrong helmet when posessed.
I'll go wheep in a corner now.

Lovely stuff there, but in fluff character I'd take one look at the various Chaos Marines and give the ol' pass on signing up!

I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.

I get the point but it doesn't seem terribly plausible. "Hey, welcome back, take a seat over there. Scone? No, no hard feelings old chap, we've both lost friends in this whole "Horus" kerfuffle, I expect it to blow over soon. Hold my bolter will you, I need to use the Throne"

 aka_mythos wrote:
I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.

That would be fantastic!

I also hope for stories like this!

Of course they wouldn't be 'officially' let back in, but they could still be doing what they now thought was right in order to atone for their wrongs!

 Alpharius wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.

That would be fantastic!

I also hope for stories like this!

Of course they wouldn't be 'officially' let back in, but they could still be doing what they now thought was right in order to atone for their wrongs!

The Deathwatch haven't been created at this point but implication points to their origins in Corax's organization of the shattered legions, including some not-traitor traitor legionaries... At least in the RPG's fluff their are "black shields" who are permitted to hide their origins and fight as penance for presumably less or renegade acts.

I think it's also a reasonable back story for some of those inquisitively minded talents that are being gathered.

Either way if GW wrote that story I'm sure they'd start off as some seperated element of a traitor legion that meetsup after Istavaan and begin to realize how screwed up their legion is and how they have find the right time to get away.

 Deadshot wrote:


Fencing and proper swordfighting are not the same thing. Fencing is a poor imitation of rapier techniques watered down for sport, and a rapier can barely be counted as a sword.

To hijack the thread, I'd say the modern fencing techniques are still very lethal against unarmored targets. Those fast lunges have quite a bit of force and body weight behind them - if it wasn't for the capped tip and protective equipment, a sharp sword would easily penetrate a body.

Anyways, I was thinking how would a Space Marines armour affect the fencing technique. I'm guessing the blade would feel pretty light, and the armoured gauntlet could be used for both parrying and gripping against non-powered weapons. Then again, he is wearing a ton of armour, so you'd need a very serious opponent to threaten him without a powered blade. If it was a powered weapon he's going against, then it would be a whole different ballgame - maybe closer to sabre fencing with cuts and thrusts?

 aka_mythos wrote:
I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.

Depends what you mean.. There are already plenty of stories where members of traitor legions did NOT go traitor and fought on the side of the Emperor. If you mean, actual marines who went traitor and killed their fellow marines, then got let back in? No chance of that.. From that moment on there was no mercy or understanding.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.

Wasn't there a limited novella one about a Word Bearer who does this? His name eludes me, but he was the focus of a short story from one of the anthology novels.

 prowla wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Fencing and proper swordfighting are not the same thing. Fencing is a poor imitation of rapier techniques watered down for sport, and a rapier can barely be counted as a sword.

To hijack the thread, I'd say the modern fencing techniques are still very lethal against unarmored targets. Those fast lunges have quite a bit of force and body weight behind them - if it wasn't for the capped tip and protective equipment, a sharp sword would easily penetrate a body.

Anyways, I was thinking how would a Space Marines armour affect the fencing technique. I'm guessing the blade would feel pretty light, and the armoured gauntlet could be used for both parrying and gripping against non-powered weapons. Then again, he is wearing a ton of armour, so you'd need a very serious opponent to threaten him without a powered blade. If it was a powered weapon he's going against, then it would be a whole different ballgame - maybe closer to sabre fencing with cuts and thrusts?

Oh absolutely, and the same techniques were used in the 17th century when rapiers became more popular with the somewhat less religious and more materialistic upper class. The classic sword design with a crossguard was symbolic as well as a weapon (turned upsidedown it a crucifix shape, symbol of Christ), and so only the wealthy families and peasants-turned-knights could afford them but then the religious aspect shrivelled and lighter rapiers took the precidence for their more ornate designs. Having done fencing for a couple years, although the last time was 5 years ago, I can personally attest to how much they hurt (at least wearing only a thick polyester vest and aluminium mesh).

However, the fencing techniques used in the sport are still quite different to rapier duels. Rapiers had edges as well as points, normally triangular (so had 3 edges and was vaguely pyramid from hilt to point) so they are more akin to sabres than foil or epèe which only stab. Plus, sport rules change the technqiues somewhat. Sabre fighting for example, is restrictive to light taps with the edge of the blade. Go too hard and you get penalised. Plus, you have to strike above the waste. Similarly, foils only allow you to hit the chest/stomach. And you have to keep your secondary hand behind your back or otherwise out of the way.

So compared to traditional fencing, modern duels lose out the ability to hit the legs with the blade itself, roll, move sidewards, make use of the other hand. The lunges and such are similar, but not identical. In modern sport, there's no sense of danger. If you fail your lunge or are parried, you'll lose a point, no big deal. Real swords, you'll lose your life.


Anyway, the design of most powerswords in artwork shows them to be the classic longsword/broadsword/bastard sword design, although models such as the tactical squad and assault squad alsp show shortswords and others, usually Ultramarine heavy, like the new UM upgrade kit, have Roman style Gladii (Gladius). The majority of the weapons most likely use the same swordfighting techniques as 12-16th century knights, sword in one hand, usually the dominant (although Space Marines are ambidextrous) and shield, or in most cases for 40k, pistol, in the other. Where it would change is what arm you'd lead with. Knights would usually have a shield, so lead with the left hand (left handers were very uncommon because the left hand was the hand of Satan and being a holy weapon, were usually not allowed to be held in the left) which had the shield.
Space Marines, usually holding a pistol, would likely lead with the sword hand, as a pistol can do damage even held back or just get on the way. In the case of Bastard Swords like Sigismund's or even larger weapons (Greatswords, which are 40k's relic blades) I'd assume they'd probably be held in 2 hands where possible. Longswords had room for a second grip also. In those cases I'd assume the techniques would be virtually identical.
Shortswords and Gladii I don't really understand. Shortswords were generally used by the richer peasants, or by ranked spearmen, or knights and cavalry. The former because they could show off, the knights for close quarters work as a backup weapon, cavalry for if they lost their horse, as they curved blades were only really effect with the momentum from horseback, and spearmen for kill anyone who broke the ranks and got inside their spear range. Its basically a long dagger and wouldn't be much use for real duels. Gladii were the Roman versions, they didn't even have a crossguard. Their purpose was to stab from behind the shield wall, killing anyone who got inside the wall, or underneath their feat when the wall moved forwards. Neither really makes any sense as a melee weapon for a sergeant or champion as those guys are the ones fighting duels.

As for the armour factor, Space Marines are going to be hugely more mobile than medieval knights, able to do things like spinning motions, combat rolls or quick backsteps that the more lightly armoured 17th century rapier wielders would use. Medieval knights' steel plate weighed a (non-literal) ton, a man who fell over probably couldn't get back up on his own unless he was superbly strong. They also couldn't move too fast, nor could they run (as not only would the armour prevent it, they would tire in seconds) or spin around or do generally anything but face their opponent. Space Marines don't have to worry about that. Knights being human also had to worry about things like their armour being penetrated or struck with a blunt weapon, which could and wpuld kill them outright, whereas Space Marine armour is incredibly hard as well as strong, sp useless hit with a power weapon, they can tank damage. Plus, even a sword through the chest won't kill them straight away, making them dangerous still, so they can be more reckless with their attacks. In Prospero Burns, there is a Space Wolf who wields dual axes. He sees the blow coming, and could choose to take it on the shoulder, which would probably cost him his arm, at least for the fight, but instead takes it in the ribs, which IIRC does end up killing him after, but allows him to continue using both arms as well as trapping the opponent's weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I typed that all on a smartphone btw.

 BrookM wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
I wonder if in the fiction we'll get any stories about traitor legionaries who went traitor see this crazy stuff and decide "too crazy" and return to the Emperor. This guy and the Gal Vorbak are just insane... My skin crawls.

Wasn't there a limited novella one about a Word Bearer who does this? His name eludes me, but he was the focus of a short story from one of the anthology novels.

One of the stories in Mark of Calth is of a Gal Vorbak who . That could be the story you mean.

Here's me coming in from the side line, droping a link to a picture of basic longsword stances. Aside from the outstretched arm it's totaly legit, both offensively and defencively.

http://i1001.photobucket.com/albums/af133/AluminiumWolf/longsword01.jpg

As fascinating as it is, can we please take the fencing/sword fighting discussion over to DAKKA DISCUSSION please?

Thanks!

If FW updates thier Chapter Tactics I am definatly buying the new SM codex. Other than that I really what the Chaos Knight.

Those blade slaves?

Yep, that's a buy.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
If FW updates thier Chapter Tactics I am definatly buying the new SM codex. Other than that I really what the Chaos Knight.

Why would they update the CT? Which ones did the new codex break?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
If FW updates thier Chapter Tactics I am definatly buying the new SM codex. Other than that I really what the Chaos Knight.

Why would they update the CT? Which ones did the new codex break?

Upon further review, they could probably make due without an update. Some of the Character's could possibly use an updat/FAQ. Though the Raptors CT is a least wrong as it refers to the old RG CT. An easy housrule though. Also, where Honor Guard changed to elites, or just command squad?

Interesting, non-Space Marine e-mail direct from Forgeworld in regards to IA11:

Hi,
Thank you for your email. Our rules writers are currently playtesting the new Corsair list as we speak as part of fully updating our Eldar rules to bring them in line with 7th edition 40k and the the current Eldar Codex. What this means is that this is likely to make an appearance in a 2nd edition version of IA11 at some point later in the year.

We will be making more models for our Eldar range at somepoint in the future, but as to what this will be, we don't have any information on it.

I'm pretty excited if we're seeing a new (or redone) Eldar FW book this year, fingers crossed its available pre-release at Warhammerfest (if thats happening again this year)

That'd be a nice surprise. The Corsair list always looked pretty fun to me.

Out of curiosity does anyone know the legality of the new GeeDubs main Imperial Knights in Legiones Astartes lists?

I wanted to pick up a warden for my World Eaters but I don't want to drop that much money on what might become a glorified paper weight.

It hasn't been added yet sadly.

 BrookM wrote:
It hasn't been added yet sadly.

Soon™

Will only be a matter of time. Maybe we'll see a proper Knight Castellan produced replete with Quake Cannon...

They could have added the Questoris Knights to the codex but they did not.. Hell they could have added the WD special character Geranicus but they did not do that either so I would not go holding my breath.....

Give them time, the warden was always the knight which bristled with guns and has to have a place in a fluffy knight household.

 Nicorex wrote:
They could have added the Questoris Knights to the codex but they did not.. Hell they could have added the WD special character Geranicus but they did not do that either so I would not go holding my breath.....

Well most of the rules for the FW knights are up officially and for free on their website.

Oh look, some ultrasmurf guy is up for pre-order: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/ROBOUTE_GUILLIMAN.html

Damn it, you beat me to it.