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I see someone on the kickstarter page is going to contact the BBB about this project.

It may be a good idea to file with the BBB against kickstarter as well. Both myself and RTides reported the Sea Monsters project while it was still active.

Kickstarter is partially responsible for this happening. They were totally negligent in background checks, and ignored reports informing them of the background of these scammers.

In a few of my early posts I hinted that I thought this was the actions of someone that has pulled scams on this community before. I no longer think that at all. I think these people (or one person) are new to this game.

Remember this. If you use their site to communicate with them, they can edit everything. They also now have all of your IP addresses. I recommend never using their site for anything.

The recent comments on the KS are curious...so Scott Lantry is replying to emails saying there is no refund policy?

Isn't Scott Lantry the aggressive part timer? Just trying to remember

EDIT:

In the Sea Serpent KS, they say:

"From S. Lantry, ADW Chairman:"

so he's not the part timer then...but he was the one making very unprofessional and aggressive comments in the locked Reaper thread. Very nice behavior for a Chairman, no? So he and a part timer both have poor social skills that are very similar to each other.

 Sirithiliel wrote:
The recent comments on the KS are curious...so Scott Lantry is replying to emails saying there is no refund policy?

Isn't Scott Lantry the aggressive part timer? Just trying to remember

EDIT:

In the Sea Serpent KS, they say:

"From S. Lantry, ADW Chairman:"

so he's not the part timer then...but he was the one making very unprofessional and aggressive comments in the locked Reaper thread. Very nice behavior for a Chairman, no? So he and a part timer both have poor social skills that are very similar to each other.

According to this link below he is the sculpter (obviously a sculptor missspelled):
http://www.weaverchestertweed.com/photo_300_21.html

About Scott Lantry

Scott Lantry is a contemporary sculpter, programmer, fine art and commercial photographer with over 25 years experience in photo and film production and post-production. With a M.A. in Art History and Humanities completed at an early age, Scott successfully worked, over the course of a quarter of a century, as an independent art director, photographer and media programmer for hundreds of internationally recognized brands and dozens of Fortune 500 companies in a diverse array of industry segments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He must be the creator of the contemporary "Sea Rabbi "

Ah okay thanks!

I only know of him from his poor performance in that Reaper thread, good to know a bit more =)

 Sirithiliel wrote:
Ah okay thanks!

I only know of him from his poor performance in that Reaper thread, good to know a bit more =)

You are welcome Sirithiel. I read what he was saying with such arrogance in Reaper Forum. He sounded like either he has split personality issue or bipolar.

Perhaps we could get the creators name added to the title of this thread? Stuff like that seems to be VERY helpful when doing google searches on a person.

Which names?

I think I started the original discussion.

I'll edit it if a mod doesn't beat me to it.

What should we put up there though?

So, the plot thickens. These have to be read back-to-back for full effect.

This went up on 9/13:

Earlier today, this update went up:

[Lars]

In response to the various concerns and misunderstanding re: updates on IAM

1. I clearly stated that we would not be tending to the "Comment" section of the IAM KS. If it is unclear: we will be posting updates weekly on IAM KS, and updating more frequently on the adwgames.com site. A link has been provided for that update page several times.

2. I will post an "Update" every Friday until the miniatures have been delivered on both KS Campaigns;

3. The core duty before us, and we know this very well, is the move past the poor hiring choices that have put us behind schedule and move forward with new sculpts and more information. We chose the adwgames.com update page as the vehicle to achieve this, because It appears to the 5 people currently working on various aspects of this project, as if there is a small group of posting Pledgers on the IAM KS that sincerely hope we do not deliver, and are intent on driving hysteria towards that goal. That is counterproductive for our team and for the Pledgers that have placed their trust in us to fulfill. This is why we have chosen the new way of reporting progress outside of the comment section.

I'm half tempted to break this down and identify each of the mistruths, lies, etc but I think it speaks for itself. Massive backpedaling, undermining of backers with concerns, and dodging responsibility. It would be cute if people didn't have money on the line.

BTW, here's a great primer on identifying tactics of manipulators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation I like Simon's list in the "How Manipulators Control their Victims" section. There are several in this update... These two updates could almost be used as a classroom exercise in how to identify layered manipulation tactics!

Fortunately, several backers have commented on today's update, calling out the most obvious bull. Unfortunately, getting people to argue the bull is a tactic in and of itself to distract from the fact that they are not providing any actual information about the project!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well said, Jennifer Letts:
Jennifer Letts 6 minutes ago

The issue I am having is that what should be very simple project management questions are not being answered clearly or directly. Instead, we have in this very update more misdirection, lying, and playing the victim. These things have been very well spelled out by previous posters. I'd also like to add that classifying the very valid concerns of backers as "hysterical" is quite offensive and flat out sexist. The word "hysteria" is derogatory to women and implies that males are having womenly vapors over nothing.

You may think you've distracted us with this sort of hand waving. You haven't. You are not the victims here. You have been failing to manage your message and have been failing to provide clear, concrete answers to basic questions. As professionals with how many years combined experience, you should be used to dealing with shifting timelines and expectation management.

Also, until ADW provides an update to the "estimated delivery date", I am working under their repeated reassurances that this project is on time, meaning deadline is Oct 1.

Backers, please don't start ignoring the fact that they've repeatedly said that delivery is September, 2014. There has been no renogotiation of the contract terms to change that delivery date. in fact, all communication has indicated that this date is firm, not an estimate.

We, as backers, have a responsibility to hold project creators accountable. Even if it is by asking questions, repeatedly, until we get an answer. Project creators are also expected to communicate with backers, especially concerning any change in expected project delivery date.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Which names?

I think I started the original discussion.

I'll edit it if a mod doesn't beat me to it.

What should we put up there though?

"ADW Games Kickstarter Drama by Dina walker & Scott Lantry/ Lars"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I'm half tempted to break this down and identify each of the mistruths, lies, etc but I think it speaks for itself. Massive backpedaling, undermining of backers with concerns, and dodging responsibility. It would be cute if people didn't have money on the line.

BTW, here's a great primer on identifying tactics of manipulators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation I like Simon's list in the "How Manipulators Control their Victims" section. There are several in this update... These two updates could almost be used as a classroom exercise in how to identify layered manipulation tactics!

Absolutely, they are professional scammers who knows how to manipulate people who are willing to help them then slap them on the face.

I feel I owe some gratitude to this thread, so I created an account to relate my interactions.

Asked for a refund from the creator, got nowhere.

Opened a KS ticket, went back and forth with them, no help.

So I called my CC company, described the situation, they reversed charges even though it had been 2+ months. Please note, your mileage may vary, I have had that particular CC for a very long time with zero incidents.

Thanks all.

PS: It seems that the people running this are now agreeing to anything in the Sea Monster comments, sculpts, base sizes, new things coming right out. It's not the 17th, how are they doing any of this without the correct sculpting material?

Welcome, Kajamo! Glad you joined us here, but sorry it was under these circumstances. It's great to hear you were successful with your card in getting a chargeback, though!

Kajamo wrote:
I feel I owe some gratitude to this thread, so I created an account to relate my interactions.

Asked for a refund from the creator, got nowhere.

Opened a KS ticket, went back and forth with them, no help.

So I called my CC company, described the situation, they reversed charges even though it had been 2+ months. Please note, your mileage may vary, I have had that particular CC for a very long time with zero incidents.

Thanks all.

PS: It seems that the people running this are now agreeing to anything in the Sea Monster comments, sculpts, base sizes, new things coming right out. It's not the 17th, how are they doing any of this without the correct sculpting material?

Welcome to Dakka. Glad to hear you were successful getting your money back. I hope many more will be just as successful.

I just thought of a slang term that we can all add to our personal lexicons: Mandelbaum'd or Mandel-bombed: verb- To offer a product to the tabletop gaming community and demonstrate an ability to scam, not deliver, blame others (usually customers) for failure, defraud, and attempt to take advantage of others through social media or crowd-funding sites.. Ex. Dude, you've been Mandelbaum'd.

So what is with people who think they can pull this stuff? Is there a predilection in the way our (gamers) brains work that lead to such flights of fancy and delusions of grandeur cause people to have such issues, both on the supply and demand sides?

See also Tony Riedy formerly of Wargames Factory and Defiance Games.

Partial product development, partial delivery, mishandling of funds etc, why do we keep seeing this stuff happen? Are there that many people in our hobby with "imbalances in their humours"?

Wow, after reading that link, they really could be used as a classic example of that...

And I'm glad you got your money back, Kajamo!

I noticed they've still avoided talking about what happened to the Kelpie or Sea wolf

xraytango wrote:
So what is with people who think they can pull this stuff?

If you look through the restored Reaper thread, you'll read Lars' comments that he thinks sculpting miniatures is an easy project.

The barrier to making metal and some resin miniatures *is* low, just a few hundred dollars for molds and supplies. However, *making* a miniature and sculpting one that people will buy are two different things.

Entrepreneurs need confidence to overcome obstacles that would stop other people, but sometimes this leads to overconfidence. Hoo boy does it.

ced1106 wrote:

xraytango wrote:
So what is with people who think they can pull this stuff?

If you look through the restored Reaper thread, you'll read Lars' comments that he thinks sculpting miniatures is an easy project.

The barrier to making metal and some resin miniatures *is* low, just a few hundred dollars for molds and supplies. However, *making* a miniature and sculpting one that people will buy are two different things.

Entrepreneurs need confidence to overcome obstacles that would stop other people, but sometimes this leads to overconfidence. Hoo boy does it.

I'll check that out.

People don't understand the work that goes into design and sculpting. I did some Jersey Barriers for a company and they sell like hotcakes, you never know what is going to get peoples attention, but you can do your best and hope that hard work pays off.

The molds were probably more expensive than the sculpt, but I had an outlay of time, material, and brain-work to put it together, so yeah resin and metal molds are not as expensive as C-n-C metal tools but it still isn't an "easy" process.

Here's the original Reaper thread, this is where I first started getting real paranoid about these people. They were pretty arrogant about their ability to produce miniatures. My guess is they came into our little world after seeing some of the big KS campaigns (Kingdom Death, CMoN, Mantic), and thought it looked like an easy cash grab.
http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55475-ice-age-miniatures-kickstarter/

Kajamo, fantastic that you got your money back! I think you should definitely let others know it may be possible via the Kickstarter comments (I'm not a backer so can't post there).

Wow, I've been reading that. Looks like there was a lot of editing in that thread. I just read that there were evidently a lot of horrible things said by D. Walker about Reaper as a company and the people who run it. Those have evidently been redacted.

Someone like that has got some real issues.

And the folks at Reaper do as best a job as they can and have a pretty good outfit because of it, that lady had no idea of what she was saying!

Yea, they were bashing Reaper [and several forum users, including myself] in that thread before it got edited. Basically telling us we had no idea what we were talking about, making 'toys' [as they insisted on calling miniatures] was easy and we're all stupid. Went on and on about how we're flamers and etc.

*sigh*

weird, posted twice. I deleted this one, it was the same as above.

By the way, I just found out that Kickstarter will be opening up business here in Sweden in October, so you can all look to the near future for some stiff ADW Games competition. Working title is: "World-class, appropriately scaled miniatures depicting IKEA furniture and pin-up Norse gods, superbly handcrafted by the creatively unbiased minds of Swedish preschoolers." A $1 funding goal, free world-wide shipping, full refund policy; I think it's going to be huge. What do you mean lack of detail?! That's nordic minimalism you ignorant fool! Lumps of clay, what are you talking about?! This is creative arts you brutish thug!

"terror birds, cave lion...etc not in scale"
So, I did some massive research on the yellow human miniature that is next to the terror birds and it turns out that the yellow human miniature is produced by
Hat.com under El cid2800 series(28mm) line:

http://www.hat.com/Curr28/Bx28007ALH/Bx28007ALH.html

http://www.hat.com/Curr28/Bx28005ANH/Bx28005ANHa.html

and cave lion is next to the ruler.

The real tragedy of these people is that they will have consumed funds that could have supported actual, more modest kickstarters from people that actually seems to aim to bring new models to the market.

It's slightly depressing that the IAM and Sea monsters can rake in over 20 000 $, when smaller and infinatly more honest projects are uncertain to reach similar or much lower goals than the ADW kickstarters set out with:
28mm Orcs
Orge miniature
Native warriors and Spirit beasts

Zywus wrote:
The real tragedy of these people is that they will have consumed funds that could have supported actual, more modest kickstarters from people that actually seems to aim to bring new models to the market.

It's slightly depressing that the IAM and Sea monsters can rake in over 20 000 $, when smaller and infinatly more honest projects are uncertain to reach similar or much lower goals than these kickstarters set out with:
28mm Orcs
Orge miniature
Native warriors and Spirit beasts

yeah, I agree. Backers should really think twice about when someone is offering 'freebies' with nasty attitude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kevin Rau (Author of H.E.R.O. novels) 7 minutes ago

I think you guys are nuts. Don't pledge on Kickstarters any longer, it's that simple. There are no guaranteed timeframes, and there's nothing at all to show that they will not fulfill the miniatures. Sure, the exact ones shown are being redone in a different size, but it looks like they've got a consistent style, and have been far better at communication than most Kickstarters are.

Many, many, MANY Kickstarters run over their projected timeframes, and that includes experienced companies that know what to expect. KS is here to fund small companies that need to get started. Give them some time to fulfill it before you break out the pitchforks and torches.

Not mean to criticize Kev, but we should invite him to Reaper or Dakka forum. Seems that he is either ignoring or hasn't informed the fact that ADW Games is run by scammers

 Goblini wrote:

Zywus wrote:
The real tragedy of these people is that they will have consumed funds that could have supported actual, more modest kickstarters from people that actually seems to aim to bring
Not mean to criticize Kev, but we should invite him to Reaper or Dakka forum. Seems that he is either ignoring or hasn't informed the fact that ADW Games is run by scammers

Well, at this point, I can only hope that they are making an honest attempt to kick off a sustainable business. None of the above looks promising.

I still hold to the 'let's see what they come up with' theory at this point, as any likelihood of recovering funds is negligible.

Welcome Kev

  Not Goblini but Kevin Rau wrote:
Don't pledge on Kickstarters any longer, it's that simple.

That throws away too much baby with the bathwater, IMO.

Not only have I found some really good deals on KS (eg. Zombicide Season 2, Reaper Bones I and II), but I've found miniature projects that I'd never even think existed (Impact Miniature's Big Lebowski miniatures). *BOTH* retail and KS projects get delayed. The big difference is that, with KS, you hand over your money sooner, so have more of an emotional stake in the project. Retail also has the advantage of "try before you buy", but you can't always do this (and a FLGS certainly won't let me try a bottle of hobby paint before buying it!). And, for some non-KS purchases and investments, you *DO* want perform as much research as possible, which is what you do with a KS project. I certainly agree that delays are to be expected, so if you want your man-dollies NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW, then, yeah, KS isn't for you. OTOH, If your painting queue is as long as mine, the mini's are still gonna arrive sooner than you have time to paint them!

Anyway, here to point out that, thanks to Google reverse image lookup, I've found two artists who were working on the ADW Doggerland KS:
* Jean-Philippe Marcotte, Concept Artist: http://www.lefauveillustration.com/portfolio/#prettyPhoto (see the illustration with the turtle on the bottom row)
* Ricardo Rambarran, Digital Sculptor: http://jragon.carbonmade.com/projects/5220625#1

RR lives in MONTREAL, the same city as No Island Media, one of ADW's former incarnations, and JPM lives in Quebec, where Montreal is located.

EDIT: Proper attribution. Whoops!

ced1106 wrote:

 Goblini wrote:
Don't pledge on Kickstarters any longer, it's that simple.

That throws away too much baby with the bathwater, IMO.

Not only have I found some really good deals on KS (eg. Zombicide Season 2, Reaper Bones I and II), but I've found miniature projects that I'd never even think existed (Impact Miniature's Big Lebowski miniatures). *BOTH* retail and KS projects get delayed. The big difference is that, with KS, you hand over your money sooner, so have more of an emotional stake in the project. Retail also has the advantage of "try before you buy", but you can't always do this (and a FLGS certainly won't let me try a bottle of hobby paint before buying it!). And, for some non-KS purchases and investments, you *DO* want perform as much research as possible, which is what you do with a KS project. I certainly agree that delays are to be expected, so if you want your man-dollies NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW, then, yeah, KS isn't for you. OTOH, If your painting queue is as long as mine, the mini's are still gonna arrive sooner than you have time to paint them!

Anyway, here to point out that, thanks to Google reverse image lookup, I've found two artists who were working on the ADW Doggerland KS:
* Jean-Philippe Marcotte, Concept Artist: http://www.lefauveillustration.com/portfolio/#prettyPhoto (see the illustration with the turtle on the bottom row)
* Ricardo Rambarran, Digital Sculptor: http://jragon.carbonmade.com/projects/5220625#1

RR lives in MONTREAL, the same city as No Island Media, one of ADW's former incarnations, and JPM lives in Quebec, where Montreal is located.

Ced1106, I did not write "don't pledge on KS..."
Good job at locating the two artists. It will be super helpful if they could tell us what is happening with ADW Games/ behind the scene and their side of story. Anyone up for contacting the artists?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trodax? Ced1106?
would you contact the artists?
If i was good at interviewing, I would but I am just not good at that.

I submitted a Project Feedback Form on Kickstarter as part of my support ticket.

I had requested a refund through the "contact me" button, the creator passed me on to the Chairman (Scott Walker), who never responded. Shocking.

Kajamo wrote:
I submitted a Project Feedback Form on Kickstarter as part of my support ticket.

I had requested a refund through the "contact me" button, the creator passed me on to the Chairman (Scott Walker), who never responded. Shocking.

'Scott Walker' what the heck! Only thing i can think at the moment, they lied too many times that they even forgot their fake names they were supposed to be using


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We should really get the artists on the line and kindly explain what really is going on with this mess.