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  So, the Eldar player on the ladder league here at work has worked his way up the ladder and has issued a challenge to me.  He just completely trounced the Space Wolf player below me, and I have to admit that I'm a bit nervous. 

  I play (at least, when I player ladder games) a Mauleed-pattern marines list, but I'm wondering if it can work against Eldar. 

  The guy plays a mixed army, with some mechanized units (Banshees and Fire Dragons) and some footsloggers (Dark Reapers, Guardians, Shining Spears). 

  I'm concerned about my 6-man las/plas tactical squads.  Do they even serve any purpose?

  On a larger level, is a gun-line army even going to work?  I can field a drop pod army, but it's not nearly as...  optimized...  as my SAFH. 

  Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

I know that my friend plays a gun line marine army against my Eldar List (mixed skimmer and foot).

He takes 2 dev squads with 4 missile launchers and tank hunter.

He also runs with 4 termi squads with 2 ass cans each also with tank hunter.

The termis sit in front of the dev squads. Devs providing good long range while the Termis are devastating 24" range.

I find it hard to deploy my cargo's anywhere near his line.

It's quite deadly against the Falcon and 2 WS I run with.

The nice thing about Mauleed pattern is that it's never truly out of luck -- las/plas, tornadoes, and such are effective against most foes. That said, a mean Eldar army will give anyone trouble. Could you give us your list in detail real quick? It'd be easier to figure out specific tactics that way.

-Adso

Hmm I suppose you could field Tigurius if you're playing 24'' Fear. Wish the rule regarding that was clarified tho.

Noob question, what's Mauleed pattern?

6 man tactical squads with a lascannon and plasma gun
great firepower, and gotta be taken down to 2 men to not count as a scoring unit-
probably the most cost effective choice in the vanilla marine codex

As a disciple of Maule, I field an army very similar to his old GT army:

Fear/Fury Epistolary in a Terminator Command Squad with assault cannons
Master with lightning claws in a Terminator Command Squad with assault cannons
4 las/plas tac squads
2 Landspeeder Tornados with heavy bolters and assault cannons
6-man Assault squad with flamers and a fist
6 devastators with 3 missile launchers
8 devastators with 4 missile launchers

As far as the suggestioned go, I'm afraid that I'm already fielding all of my assault cannon terminators (though I have a few with heavy flamers and with storm bolters lying around). I do have a couple of dreadnoughts with assault cannons, though.

I guess I'm wondering if full 10-man tactical squad with fists (and honour guards?) might be the better way to go in this case. I'm worried about eldar assault troops hitting my line and muching up all of my squads.

You should have nothing to fear from eldar "assault" units. They all have to disembark from their falcons/waveserpents and then you have a turn to blow them all away.

You keep your 6 man squads 7 inches apart, so they cannot be consolidated into, and your terminators as counterassault/shooting. The land speeders fly around and do what land speeders do, and the dev's do what they do. Honestly, what assault units are you afraid of? You have so much shooting that half of them won't even make it to you.

My concern is that the Falcons/WaveSerpents will land in front of me. On the NEXT turn, the Banshees/Harlequins/Fire Dragons disembark and then charge me, with no fear of being shot before they can charge. 

Spreading my guys out should work pretty well, though.  I guess I'll stop worrying about my army and just let the chips fall where they may. 

Except they have to face their ass to you or they wont be able to charge! So feel free to pelt their rear armor with everything you got!

Harlequins are fleet. They can get out within 2" + their base distance from the doors, mind you, and then move 6 + 1d6 + 6 at you. It's not that hard to get harlies into assault. Clue in dude.

Put tankhunters on your terminators. That'll give you a big advantage vs. falcons that you didn't have previously. Then make sure you save your landspeeders

What you need to do is, when it's pivotal, put a landspeeder up the rear hatch of the Falcon that is threatening you. Alternatively you can position your speeder in such a way that you're likely to get rear armor if they get close to you.

Other than that just shoot the rest of their army, you should be fine. It's not an easy game but it's winnable if you play the right falcon-assault-denial game.

One good anti falcon (in my case anti wave serp) tactic that was used on me was a speeder w'hvy flamer that hid for a while and when my banshees disembarked and assaulted they were flamed to death as soon as they won combat.

Putting this meltagun/flamer combo in a rear hatch sucks for any eldar player.

Orion

Check out the picture



This is a classic Eldar assault "fork."  If this is the position of the units at the end of the Eldar turn, and if the falcon contains harlies or banshees, the marines on the right can't escape being assaulted in the next Eldar turn (except by getting a lucky kill on the falcon).

-If they move up, they still won't make it to the falcon's rear arc and they can't block the hatches because the bikes are in their way.  Also whatever is in the wave serpents will reach them even more easily (that's a 12" ruler).

-If they move away, the minimum 15" assault (2" disembark, 6" move, 1-6" fleet and 6" assault) is still plenty of reach for the harlies/banshees from the falcon to catch them.  And they'd lose their lascannon shot.

-If they stand still, units from both the falcon and the wave serpents can reach them with the 15" of reach from the back hatch.

The falcon in this picture could even be rotated another 45 degrees counterclockwise to protect its hatches and still have plenty of reach.

Doesn't anybody actually play against mech Eldar assault?

Should I keep my Terminators in reserve and deep strike 'em behind the Falcons, or just put them in the gun line to shoot and play counter-assault?

This is something you see, but of course not quite like this because the marine unit would assault the bikes (win with only the three of them) and then consolidate to within 1 inch of the falcon. The falcon would have to move to disembark troops.

A more accurate depiction of what I might do would have the falcon where one of the serps are and have a serp with fire dragons where the falcon is.

Orion

I've played this game (vs. Mech Eldar) a bit, there are ways to beat them, though I run a different version of the SAFH Ultras. No Devs, bigger assault Squad, more Las/Plas, and more Termies.

Main thing is shoot a las/plas at each tank, you should glance. Once glanced, move on.

Termies deepstrike and fire at anything not in a bloody tank, and failing that, shoot at a bloody tank in the ass.

Use speeders to try and block hatches. Your terminators should deepstrike away from your gunline forcing the Eldar player to come get them instead of focusing on your gunline. The gunline should be spread apart as much as possible to avoid consolidation, but still allow them to move up and rapid fire. 6 Man Las/Plas squads die real quick to a dedicated assault from Harlies/Banshees. The goal is that they die, you give up 115 points, and then shoot the hell out of the Harlies/Banshees.

The game is probably 75% decided by terrain setup and deployment. If you get a bad terrain environment to deploy in, I find it's exceptionally hard to win.

Also if he's got Shining Spears, they'll be turbo boosting, shoot them with Assault Cannon termy squads as the volume of fire should net you enough wounds to torrent the Exarch once or twice over (I normally see squads of 4 spears).

Remember, you may be playing marines but the Las/Plas squads are expendable. You have to know when to sacrifice units to force the Eldar player into a bad situation. Once he' s out of the tanks he's exposed himself and you have to take that opportunity to hit them, the only way to do that is to sacrifice squads. If you see a squad alive with one marine, opt not to use the Masters Leadership and hope you fail the test and get out of combat and use the chance to pounce on them with Speeders or an assault squad (shooting first, obviously).

It's going to be hard for your list since you have points tied up in the Dev squads, I don't like them mainly because I like my fire bases to be small, cheap, and expendable. Moving away from this may be a bit hard for you if you don't have the models though.

Just keep plinging the skimmers and if you're lucky one will go down.

In the scenario per above with all those skimmers, the idea is to move the squads in such a way that whatever gets out is going to be stuck assaulting something in a bad position. If you have to move, just double tap with Plasma and hope for the glance. If you can keep the falcons from shooting you, then you shouldn't be taking that much more firepower, and anything that is trying to shoot at you can be dealt with by the deepstriking terminators.

Not everything is going to be in the unkillable falcons, and depending on the points level the Eldar player is going to be forced to take things that are vulnerable. Use the terminators to go after these elements.

And obviously, after you go through your shots at the Falcons/Prisms and you can take shots again with other squads, double shots up on the Waveserpents if any, they go down a LOT easier.

Good luck, just know that it can be done, but to win you seriously have to outplay your opponent as they have the better army list. Oh and pray for good terrain setups for your army, that always helps too.

Orion and Voodoo's advice is the real thing. Voodoo's advice is particularly good. Thanks, guys.

Unless your Eldar opponent is very inexperienced, you can't actually realistically stop the assault. So you have to take advantage of whatever advantage you have and try to minimize the effect.

One more thing to add: spreading out is better than castling. A good Eldar player knows that he can carve up your castle by tank-shocking his skimmers into the middle of it, making an impassable line of grav tanks that isolates the part of your army he wants to kill. Countercharge units can also be cut off by a grav tank fence, so watch out.

Good luck.

Posted By Pariah Press on 09/21/2007 1:21 PM
My concern is that the Falcons/WaveSerpents will land in front of me. On the NEXT turn, the Banshees/Harlequins/Fire Dragons disembark and then charge me, with no fear of being shot before they can charge. 

Which either means one of two things:

1. To maximise distance, they've turned the rear of the Wave Serpent towards you. If they have done this, try to advance to block up exits and rapid fire S4 into the AV10 rear armour.
2. They've stopped, possibly a little sideways, meaning the assault troops have to go around most if not all of the Serpent to get to you. Just move 6" directly away from the exit hatch and you should be ok. They're garenteen 13" of charge, with an average of 15.5". Once you take into consideration the length of a Serpent, you should be able to get away.

BYE

Posted By Voodoo Boyz on 09/21/2007 2:54 PM

The game is probably 75% decided by terrain setup and deployment. If you get a bad terrain environment to deploy in, I find it's exceptionally hard to win.

  Well, we'll probably be doing alternating terrain setup.  My inclination is to put plenty of cover in the deployment zones and leave a no man's land in the middle.  Maybe leave some space between the terrain and the board edges to hide my speeders behind (of course, that will give him a place to hide his Falcons, too, so maybe that's not so hot. 

  Thanks for the advice, guys.  Especially you, Voodoo Boyz.  Dakka rules.  I've decided to stick with my regular army for this one; I think that it can be done, with the right tactics. 

I can't believe it's you, HBMC, saying this. Did you look at the picture?

A fleeting unit gets a guaranteed *15"* charge from the back hatch (you forgot the 2" disembark) with an average 17.5". For harlies, that's regardless of terrain. And that's only if you get unlucky and roll a 1 for the fleet roll.

I can tell you from much long experience that disembarking infantry can move all the way around the front end of the falcon in their disembark move and be about 1" in front of the nose of the falcon. With a forge world serpent, they're within an inch of the nose.

Also, because of the 1" rule, it's about 7.5 inches around 1/4 of the circumference of a falcon. Even if an enemy unit start at the edge of the front arc, there is no mathematical possibility of covering the distance to get into the rear arc if you're an infantry unit with a 6" move.

If a falcon is within 3" of you at the end of the eldar turn, there is no way that you can escape being assaulted by fleeting troops inside. Except for destroying the falcon.

Ain't checked back in a while.

Flavius, you have totally changed my mind on playing an eldar army...

Unbelievable, its so brilliant~!

Thanks for the help, guys. After some delays, I finally played the game today. Omega-level seek & destroy. The wasn't much cover in the middle of the board, so he had a hell of a time trying to cross the no man's land. Victorius slaughter. My opponent had one banshee exarch left at the end of the game, and she was fleeing. I lost my land speeders, assault squad, and my librarian with terminator command squad. Everything else was just fine. He was able to concentrate on one of my flanks, as I was spread out, but it wasn't enough for him to pull off a win.

Congrats! Always good to hear that the Eldar took it in the face from Shooty Marines. Show those Phil Kelly upstarts that the first 4th Edition cheese is the best, Haines style.

Probably because I didn't see the picture.

Even so, what's to stop the Marines from moving up and charging the Jetbikes, and hopefully block the exits. I 'spose then the Serpents' cargo will hit them.

Unfortunately the example is pitting four units against one, so whilst it shows a manouvre that you'd like to take, in a perfect world there's far more than just a Tac squad of Marines sitting there on their lonesome. Add to the fact that you'll be playing a human opponent and not a robot, and he'll probably see that coming.

BYE

In fact, I faced a situation similar to that shown in the picture today. I charged the jetbikes (shining spears, actually) with my assault marines and dispatched them. I was indeed charged by the falcon's contents. Fortunately, the falcon contained a lone autarch, so I was able to deal with him after a couple of rounds of close combat. If it had been full of harlequins, it would have been quite a different story!

When facing the eldar I suggest...."Prayer, Mr. Saavik, the Eldar do not take prisoners!"

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 10/16/2007 9:29 PM
Probably because I didn't see the picture.

Even so, what's to stop the Marines from moving up and charging the Jetbikes, and hopefully block the exits. I 'spose then the Serpents' cargo will hit them.

Unfortunately the example is pitting four units against one, so whilst it shows a manouvre that you'd like to take, in a perfect world there's far more than just a Tac squad of Marines sitting there on their lonesome. Add to the fact that you'll be playing a human opponent and not a robot, and he'll probably see that coming.

BYE

Yah, the picture just shows the ideal "fork" situation where the one tac squad can't escape assault, no matter what it does.

If you pick a far flank and use star engines, you can be in a situation like this at the bottom of turn one for a turn two assault.  So it throws the static/shooty player onto the back foot and forces him to move units around in his turn, which then decreases his firepower.  Then at the top of your own next turn you evaluate whether you're in the optimal situation to go with an assault  right then, or whether it would be better to maneuver for another turn to try to line up a succession of bunched up units for assault.  Sooner or later the static/shooty army will be backed up against the edge of the table with nowhere else to escape to.  Since you only need a turn or two for your assault, having the game end just as you've killed off a bunch of expensive enemy units can actually be a good exit strategy.

While making the assault it's also important to hold off the counterattack .  Assault marines or nearby terminators can be bogged by a unit of dire avengers with defend and shimmershield.  You can also use your grav tanks (they're shaken after dropping their assault troops anyway) to cut a slice through the enemy army with tank shocks, building a fence of skimmers and isolating the part of the army you want to kill in assault (this works pretty well against orks).  To a certain extent you can even herd infantry units out of rapid-fire range of your assault.  Then when you've scored a bunch of victory points, jump back in the transports, zip away, and spend the rest of the game terrain-sniping at valuable units.

I took this picture awhile ago when the codex first came out; based on my experience since then I'd protect the hatches with a vyper instead of bikes, because it's impossible to bog it in assault (and if it goes down, it becomes terrain, which is like a highway for harlequins).  A vyper is better at keeping up with the falcon too.

I'd say the correct answer to the picture scenario is to move the marines to block the next turn tank shock of the falcon to your most valuable unit, while avoiding the assault range of the wave serpent cargo.  Be sure to place the las-cannon directly in the falcon's path as you'll be taking a death or glory.  Clump the marines together to receive the harlie charge, the idea is to get below half strength while removing all models in base contact.  Prime circumstances for breaking the combat on his turn and getting free parting shots on the harlies who can't chase you.

After that move, pass your LD and rapidfire the jetbikes off the table. 

Eldar player's turn, the harlies get out and smell blood.  The falcon wants to tank shock but risks running the harlie target off the board, and if he does so anyways you get a free lascannon hit. 

Marines still eat it, but hey 7 units just ganged up on 1.   That hopefully leaves another part of the battlefield vastly in your favor.