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So, I'm curious.

Ork wierdboys in HTH combat still have to roll for their psychic powers. If they roll a 1-3 they are treated as having a powerweapon.

Old Zogwort has a wargear item called Pit of Vipers. He gets an additional D6 attacks at I4 that wound on a 2+. But the specific wording on the pit of vipers is "All zogworts attacks are poisoned attacks that always wound on a 2+"

So (not counting charging) if you get a powerweapon result for your psychic power is old zoggy getting 1-6 powerweapon attacks that wound on a 2+ (regardless of toughness), and 2 I2 powerweapon attacks that also wound on a 2+. Thats 3-9 shots. Ouch.

Pit of vipers is wargear, its not actually a weapon. Most wargear items that give attacks are combined with actual weapons. This seems totally legal to me, so what I am missing, it can't be that good.

Yeah, I thought about that last week. Pretty cool stuff, but he could also just teleport out of combat instead of fighting.

Looks like it to me.

On a related note, a question about Zogwort's Curse power. What happens is you turn a character into a squig that's attached to a unit? Is he not targetable? If he is, and it succeeds, is the squig placed next to the unit? Does he count as being in close combat? Does he count as charging?

Jayden63 wrote:So, I'm curious.

Ork wierdboys in HTH combat still have to roll for their psychic powers. If they roll a 1-3 they are treated as having a powerweapon.

Old Zogwort has a wargear item called Pit of Vipers. He gets an additional D6 attacks at I4 that wound on a 2+. But the specific wording on the pit of vipers is "All zogworts attacks are poisoned attacks that always wound on a 2+"

So (not counting charging) if you get a powerweapon result for your psychic power is old zoggy getting 1-6 powerweapon attacks that wound on a 2+ (regardless of toughness), and 2 I2 powerweapon attacks that also wound on a 2+. Thats 3-9 shots. Ouch.

Pit of vipers is wargear, its not actually a weapon. Most wargear items that give attacks are combined with actual weapons. This seems totally legal to me, so what I am missing, it can't be that good.

The rules on page 46 of the rulebook state that you cannot combine two special close combat attacks together, a model must choose to use one or the other. Note that this rule does not refer to "weapons" but rather special close combat attacks. Poisoned weapons are listed, as are power weapons.

So Zogwort would have a choice of using the rules for poisioned attacks or power weapon attacks but not both rules at the same time.

Phausi wrote:Looks like it to me.

On a related note, a question about Zogwort's Curse power. What happens is you turn a character into a squig that's attached to a unit? Is he not targetable? If he is, and it succeeds, is the squig placed next to the unit? Does he count as being in close combat? Does he count as charging?

In close combat? You do know your opponent gets to control the squig, right?

So do you still get the +D6 attacks and then choose the wound on 2+ or the powerweapon effect. What part of Pit of Vipers counts and what doesn't? Just wanting to be clear on this. Is it an all or nothing sort of thing? The D6 attacks is probably the most important part.

Jayden63 wrote:So do you still get the +D6 attacks and then choose the wound on 2+ or the powerweapon effect. What part of Pit of Vipers counts and what doesn't? Just wanting to be clear on this. Is it an all or nothing sort of thing? The D6 attacks is probably the most important part.

Only the special close combat attack (the poisoned weapon effect). So yeah, you could definitely get the additional D6 attacks as a power weapon on a turn you roll 1-3 while he's locked in combat. Sadly, the turn that would be most useful, when he charges and gets +1 Strength, is the turn he won't be able to get the power weapon effect (because he won't be in combat when he rolls for his powers).

yakface wrote:

Phausi wrote:Looks like it to me.

On a related note, a question about Zogwort's Curse power. What happens is you turn a character into a squig that's attached to a unit? Is he not targetable? If he is, and it succeeds, is the squig placed next to the unit? Does he count as being in close combat? Does he count as charging?

In close combat? You do know your opponent gets to control the squig, right?

Right, that's what I meant. If the IC is in a squad, is he counted as charging in the same way as horrors in fantasy when he is squigified? Or is he merely placed next to the unit? (this is assuming he can be targeted while in a squad)

Phausi wrote:

Right, that's what I meant. If the IC is in a squad, is he counted as charging in the same way as horrors in fantasy when he is squigified? Or is he merely placed next to the unit? (this is assuming he can be targeted while in a squad)

The squig is controlled by the opponent so there is no way he will ever fight close combat against friendly models.

I think generally people will play that the IC can be picked out of a unit he's joined to (provided he is in line of sight), and when he gets squigified it certainly isn't clear wether the squig remains part of the unit or not, but either way he isn't going to be attacking his own unit in combat.

I agree with Yak on the poisoned weapon or power weapon choice, not both.

But on the squigification, I just assumed you replaced the Independant Character with an Independant Squig, which the opponent would then endeavor to hide as best as possible to save the tasty VPs now bound up in squig-hide. Though I'm guessing the PDF makes no mention of IC status for the squig, so most people would pop him out as his own unit and blast him

- Salvage

The rules say he is a squig with a profile and counts as infantry. So no he is not an IC anymore. It is rather up in the air if the squig becomes his own unit at that point (which I tend to think that he would), much like how Greater Demons became their own unit in the old chaos codex. Naturally any bonuses that the IC might have provided to the unit he was joined to are gone.

But that squig is its own infantry unit. It can be picked out in a shooting attack with a simple LD check to not shoot at closest target. No IC protection.

As for the power, it states you choose an IC within 18" and LOS. I'm pretty sure, it works around normal IC protection from shooting restrictions. Its not like the power can choose a different target.

Alright, my bad. I was reading "controlled by the opponent" as the opponent being the Ork player. Stupid me.

Actually, the pdf states that the character is an IC that counts as infantry.

Boss_Salvage wrote:I agree with Yak on the poisoned weapon or power weapon choice, not both.

But on the squigification, I just assumed you replaced the Independant Character with an Independant Squig, which the opponent would then endeavor to hide as best as possible to save the tasty VPs now bound up in squig-hide. Though I'm guessing the PDF makes no mention of IC status for the squig, so most people would pop him out as his own unit and blast him

- Salvage

Actually (as already pointed out) the rule does state that the squig counts as an infantry IC.

But more importantly, the squig isn't worth any Victory Points. The rule doesn't state anything about the squig counting as the former model, so at the end of the game, regardless of what has happened to the squig, your model is off the table and therefore gives up full Victory Points.

So once your IC becomes squigified you might as well go charging away with your new squig buddy, you've got nothing to lose.

sorry for the threadomancy, but with KP's in the 5th edition rules, I figured this was the bset place to ask:

Is the squig worth a KP, or do you gain the KP when you squigify the IC? I would assume that you have to kill the squig.

In the future, your best bet is to just start a new thread on the subject instead of digging up an old one. To answer your questions, there is a lot of obscurity in dealing with Zogwort. I would say that you have to kill the squig to get the KP. This is based on the Zogwort's Curse entry saying that the target is only replaced by a different model with a different profile, but says nothing about it being counted as destroyed for scoring purposes.

Yeah, I almost just started a new thread, but then I would have got responses relating to this thread, or it would have ended up rehashing this thread, so I figured it might as well be in the same thread so people could see the previous discussion on all things Zogwort related...

yakface wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:So, I'm curious.

Ork wierdboys in HTH combat still have to roll for their psychic powers. If they roll a 1-3 they are treated as having a powerweapon.

Old Zogwort has a wargear item called Pit of Vipers. He gets an additional D6 attacks at I4 that wound on a 2+. But the specific wording on the pit of vipers is "All zogworts attacks are poisoned attacks that always wound on a 2+"

So (not counting charging) if you get a powerweapon result for your psychic power is old zoggy getting 1-6 powerweapon attacks that wound on a 2+ (regardless of toughness), and 2 I2 powerweapon attacks that also wound on a 2+. Thats 3-9 shots. Ouch.

Pit of vipers is wargear, its not actually a weapon. Most wargear items that give attacks are combined with actual weapons. This seems totally legal to me, so what I am missing, it can't be that good.

The rules on page 46 of the rulebook state that you cannot combine two special close combat attacks together, a model must choose to use one or the other. Note that this rule does not refer to "weapons" but rather special close combat attacks. Poisoned weapons are listed, as are power weapons.

So Zogwort would have a choice of using the rules for poisioned attacks or power weapon attacks but not both rules at the same time.

I'm only bringing this up that things have changed in 5th ed. Under the section where it talks about two special weapons (pg 42) it says...

Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons.

The book is now talking about weapons, not attacks. So wargear that is not a weapon but gives a special weapon effect can be combined with other weapons.

Interesting.

As for the squig thing, in fifth ed, its a little wonky now that VP are out the window. I'd almost say you have to kill the squig to get the KP as the squig replaces the model. I'd hate to think that you could get two KPs one for the IC and the second for the squig.

yakface wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:So, I'm curious.

Ork wierdboys in HTH combat still have to roll for their psychic powers. If they roll a 1-3 they are treated as having a powerweapon.

Old Zogwort has a wargear item called Pit of Vipers. He gets an additional D6 attacks at I4 that wound on a 2+. But the specific wording on the pit of vipers is "All zogworts attacks are poisoned attacks that always wound on a 2+"

So (not counting charging) if you get a powerweapon result for your psychic power is old zoggy getting 1-6 powerweapon attacks that wound on a 2+ (regardless of toughness), and 2 I2 powerweapon attacks that also wound on a 2+. Thats 3-9 shots. Ouch.

Pit of vipers is wargear, its not actually a weapon. Most wargear items that give attacks are combined with actual weapons. This seems totally legal to me, so what I am missing, it can't be that good.

The rules on page 46 of the rulebook state that you cannot combine two special close combat attacks together, a model must choose to use one or the other. Note that this rule does not refer to "weapons" but rather special close combat attacks. Poisoned weapons are listed, as are power weapons.

So Zogwort would have a choice of using the rules for poisioned attacks or power weapon attacks but not both rules at the same time.

Pit of vipers is not a weapon as stated. The rule you reference on page 42 says that you must choose which weapon to use. How do you choose something that always works? Zogworts Item says that all of Zogworts attacks wound on a 2+. He is not wielding a weapon he is fighting bare handed. The Psychic power says he is treated as having a power weapon. This says to me that his hands are treat as power weapons for the turn. He does not have the option to not use the nest of vipers which ALWAYS functions.

Zogwort gets to wound on a 2+ with a power weapon. D6 of these attacks are at Init 4. the rest are at normal initiative.

This is not overpowered since he is already over costed with no armor save. Most opponents will go before him. the only time he will actually do much is vs a carnifex.

wow we said the same thing :p I should all posts before posting. My bad

I'm in agreement that I think the rule changed with the new edition.

yakface wrote:
I'm in agreement that I think the rule changed with the new edition.

So, to clarify; You think that, in 5e, Ol' Zog can get his 2 PW attacks (assuming he rolls well) at I2, AND d6 attacks at I4, AND all of them are Power Weapon atacks that wound on 2+?


Eric

Yep. Steer clear of old Zogwort.

[Killing him in his charging turn is your best bet.]

After that, it's bad news all around.

Zogwort + Mad Dok is really irritating.

Ok, Mad Dok + any other special character (or just a Warboss) is really annoying.