Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here's my question...

There seems to be a shift in the purpose/outcome of the Council of Nikaea in the old background vs. the new background.

The old background basically had it as (from the old Index Astartes article on the Thousand Sons):

"There were those amongst the Imperial court suspicious of the Thousand Sons' methods. Paramount amongst them was Mortarion, sepulchral lord of the Death Guard who knew too well from his own dark past that sorcerous power never came without a price. Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, for whom any battle fought through sleight of hand and clever deceit was by definition dishonourable also lent his voice to the critics of the Thousand Sons. The schism grew so great that it threatened the very foundations of the new order, and so the Emperor of Man himself decreed a council to resolve the issue for all time.

The mightiest proponents of both sides convened on the planet Nikaea to debate, with the Emperor himself enthroned above the dais as arbiter, in an ancient amphitheatre that seated tens of thousands. There, beneath the glittering starlight, the witch hunters presented their case. They recited a litany of human misery inflicted upon the Emperor's own subjects by sorcerers enslaved by Chaotic monstrosities; of mutants unable to control what they had become, and despots who turned their psychic gifts to dark and selfish purpose. To speak against these charges came Magnus himself. He climbed the dais in silence, his own visage seeming to confirm everything the witch hunters asserted.

But when he began to speak, it was clear none of his accusers could match the charisma or presence of a Space Marines Primarch and least of all this particular Primarch's certainty of conviction. Magnus told the assembled throng that no knowledge was tainted of itself, and no pursuit of knowledge ever wrong so long as the seeker of that truth was master of what he learned. And, Magnus decreed with finality, there were no secrets the Thousand Sons had not mastered, no ways too labyrinthine for them to know. When he stepped from the dais, the council was divided more sharply than ever: the witch hunters had made their case collectively with great impact, but with insufficient power to blunt the persuasiveness of the Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The assemblage openly wondered if even the Emperor could decide against one of his own sons.

The tension had reached the palpable knife-edge of violence when a contingent of Space Marine Librarians approached the dais. The Emperor acknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent, for visible amongst the librarians were the chiefs of some of the greatest Legions in the Imperium. These mystic warriors formed a semicircle about the podium to indicate they spoke with one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who stepped forward to deliver their words. Though his identity has been lost to history, he is said to have spoken with a passion that bordered on ferocity, and offered to the assembled council a third alternative. A psyker, he proposed, like an athlete, was a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve Mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.

The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. But it was not the decision favoured by Magnus. The Grimoire Hereticus records the fateful face-to-face confrontation between father and son when the Emperor himself barred Magnus's attempt to storm from the hall in protest. He bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic. It is said the cyclopean Primarch's face appeared brittle as aged stone as he received his father's command. Brittle enough to crack, but the Primarch of the Thousand Sons bent his shoulder and pledged himself and his Legion to obey. Neither Emperor nor Primarch knew that this moment would be the last time they would meet, and that events had been set in motion that would climax in treachery, bloodshed and pain."

I think the new background now has it that the Council of Nikaea banned entirely the use of Librarians/Psykers...?

Is this true?

Has the fluff foolishly shifted in this direction?

And if so, where did this happen?

In the HH CCG artbooks?

Or is it in the new HH series of books?

In the HH book "A Thousand Sons" the Witch-hunter's were not mentioned and Russ says psykers are evil yet allows Storm-callers (portrayed as SW librarians).
At Nikea the Emperor determines psykers other than Astropaths are not allowed. The Emperor states, in more words, Astropaths are only allowed because otherwise travel and communication would cease.


In "A Thousand Sons" it states the Thousand Sons created the first librarians and trained the others thus making both Chaplains and Librarians creations of legions that go heretic.

The false ban of all empyrean based powers is basically the result of a writing style ignorant to consequences of events.
The impression of a complete ban, except astropaths, except navigators, except the emperor himself, except malcador, except...,
sounds like a case of epic fail in believable fluff.
Maybe, the author wanted to tell us that whole squads of librarians and librarians as squad leader were forbidden?
Generally, the Emperor can't ban the use of the empyrean without banning himself.
If its just to restrict librarians, I could see a reason for the traitors to secretly undermine the reputation of the librarians, as those
T-sons showed abilities to counter the warp ( Mhotep ) and IMHO scanning accessible sources like the T-sons did may have lead to
countermeasures against the demons, which isn't what the ruinous powers want.
Remember the focus on research of the ad mech was severly hampered after the heresy and the fault has to be blamed at the turncoats.
I spot a case of events beyond our actual knowledge of the meeting at nikaea, as I think the custodes part there ( contra-psykers )
isn't revealed yet and Russ has shown great effort at beeing easily mislead...

The Horus Heresy artbooks may well have been a primary source for Nikaea being a complete ban on psykers, Collected Visions describes the Emperor's verdict as follows:

The Emperor made his ruling. Beyond the exceptions of the Navigators and astropaths he was adamant that the Legions did not employ psykers. Even the hint of sorcery had become dangerous and unacceptable. He commanded that the Primarchs close their Librarius departments forthwith and ordered that the Primarchs themselves not indulge in their undoubted psychic talents.
[...]
Magnus was ordered to return to Prospero and reorganise his Legion, to disband the Legion's Librarius and re-deploy the Librarians to the battle-companies.

A Thousand Sons, which was published some time after Alpharius began the thread and thus can't have been the source he asked about, follows Visions example, the Emperor proclaiming that:

Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

I can't see how it can be interpreted that Librarians were still permitted after the Council, although there must either have been some loophole or the Emperor rescinded his ruling at some point, else there wouldn't be such numbers of Librarians active in M41.

ChaoticMind wrote:In the HH book "A Thousand Sons" the Witch-hunter's were not mentioned

They were mentioned, actually. In both the Index Astartes article Alpharius quoted and A Thousand Sons, "witch hunters" is used to describe the various individuals calling for sorcery to be outlawed. It's not a reference to the Ordo Hereticus, which was founded in M36.

The HH Artbook was the first source where this major continuity error was introduced. Whoever was responsible for that obviously did not think through about the implications to the larger setting: mainly that it would invalidate it wholesale. There Imperium uses psykers of every persuasion and has done so for the past 10K years. Remember that the Emperors words and orders are not only law but holy scripture. So anyone who acts against them is not only a criminal but a heretic of the worst kind.

The original compromise is clear, makes sense and works with the established setting. The "new" version is just crap.

I know it isn't easy, BUT, IF you've been following my threads on this, you'll see I know all of this already.

WITHOUT A DOUBT, The "Horus Heresy" artbooks/card game is 100% to blame for this debacle.

And it lies at the feet of Alan Merrett, the alleged IP/Fluff 'expert'.

They had a chance to 'fix' it in the HH Series, but they didn't.

On the one hand, he did try to explain WHY the Emperor left the Great Crusade and returned to Earth, but in my opinion, the explanation is a bit... goofy.

He then went and ruined a perfectly GOOD story on Psykers vs. Sorcerers too.

I still look forward to seeing how they end up explaining this one, but I have the sneaking suspicion that in the end, they won't! It will be, more or less, swept under the rug.

1hadhq's made the most sense so far: Basically, they screwed it up.

A small note here:

Æscholt wrote: he was adamant that the Legions did not employ psykers.

Space Marines !=everything. Even during the Great Crusades.

He only forbade the legions. Nobody else.

He forbade the legions from operating a Librarium, which means they aren't allowed to train psykers...Which was stupid.

All of the idiot non-astartes who can't control their powers are more of a threat than the space marines, who are heavily regulated in the first place. Pfeh. And when did this become reversed?

The interesting thing is that you don't necessarily have to be a psyker to employ sorcery...

You don't have to use psychic powers in the 41st millennium to be a sorcerer either

Samus_aran115 wrote:All of the idiot non-astartes who can't control their powers

Imperial Psykers are not "idiot non-astartes who can't control their powers". Any psyker that is unable to control their powers are turned over to the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. These psykers are soul-bound into becoming an Astropath, shaping their powers and granting them the ability to resist the predations of the warp. Without Astropaths, the Imperium would cease to function as a cohesive unit-- as would most Space Marine chapters. Those that ARE able to control their powers are trained by the Adeptus Astra Telepathica to be able to utilize their powers to the full extent, while avoiding corruption by the warp. A lot of this latter category, Imperial Psykers, end up being more powerful and skilled than Librarians, if a bit more specialized. A Battle Psyker, for example, has far greater combat-based powers. Primaris Psykers are especially powerful, and provided with special warding on the inside of their skull as well as special rune-inscribed robes which makes them actually safer to be around than Librarians.

Since he banned the legions from using physkers, mabye that means that the chapters still can....
But yeah, they dropped the ball on this one.

Alpharius wrote:Here's my question...

There seems to be a shift in the purpose/outcome of the Council of Nikaea in the old background vs. the new background.

The old background basically had it as (from the old Index Astartes article on the Thousand Sons):

"There were those amongst the Imperial court suspicious of the Thousand Sons' methods. Paramount amongst them was Mortarion, sepulchral lord of the Death Guard who knew too well from his own dark past that sorcerous power never came without a price. Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, for whom any battle fought through sleight of hand and clever deceit was by definition dishonourable also lent his voice to the critics of the Thousand Sons. The schism grew so great that it threatened the very foundations of the new order, and so the Emperor of Man himself decreed a council to resolve the issue for all time.

The mightiest proponents of both sides convened on the planet Nikaea to debate, with the Emperor himself enthroned above the dais as arbiter, in an ancient amphitheatre that seated tens of thousands. There, beneath the glittering starlight, the witch hunters presented their case. They recited a litany of human misery inflicted upon the Emperor's own subjects by sorcerers enslaved by Chaotic monstrosities; of mutants unable to control what they had become, and despots who turned their psychic gifts to dark and selfish purpose. To speak against these charges came Magnus himself. He climbed the dais in silence, his own visage seeming to confirm everything the witch hunters asserted.

But when he began to speak, it was clear none of his accusers could match the charisma or presence of a Space Marines Primarch and least of all this particular Primarch's certainty of conviction. Magnus told the assembled throng that no knowledge was tainted of itself, and no pursuit of knowledge ever wrong so long as the seeker of that truth was master of what he learned. And, Magnus decreed with finality, there were no secrets the Thousand Sons had not mastered, no ways too labyrinthine for them to know. When he stepped from the dais, the council was divided more sharply than ever: the witch hunters had made their case collectively with great impact, but with insufficient power to blunt the persuasiveness of the Primarch of the Thousand Sons. The assemblage openly wondered if even the Emperor could decide against one of his own sons.

The tension had reached the palpable knife-edge of violence when a contingent of Space Marine Librarians approached the dais. The Emperor acknowledged them with a nod and all fell silent, for visible amongst the librarians were the chiefs of some of the greatest Legions in the Imperium. These mystic warriors formed a semicircle about the podium to indicate they spoke with one voice, but it was a young Epistolary who stepped forward to deliver their words. Though his identity has been lost to history, he is said to have spoken with a passion that bordered on ferocity, and offered to the assembled council a third alternative. A psyker, he proposed, like an athlete, was a gifted individual whose native talent must be carefully nurtured. Psykers were not evil in themselves. Sorcery was a knowledge that had to be sought, even bargained for, and neither man nor paragon could be certain they had the best of such bargains. The other Librarians united around him, and proposed that the education of human psykers to best serve Mankind be made an Imperial priority. The conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind.

The compromise presented by the Librarians offered both factions something, and appeared to be what the Emperor himself had been waiting for. The Emperor ruled it law without allowing any rebuttal, and the Edicts of Nikaea stand to this millennium as Imperial policy regarding human psychic mutation. But it was not the decision favoured by Magnus. The Grimoire Hereticus records the fateful face-to-face confrontation between father and son when the Emperor himself barred Magnus's attempt to storm from the hall in protest. He bade Magnus cease the practice of sorcery and incantation, and the pursuit of all knowledge related to magic. It is said the cyclopean Primarch's face appeared brittle as aged stone as he received his father's command. Brittle enough to crack, but the Primarch of the Thousand Sons bent his shoulder and pledged himself and his Legion to obey. Neither Emperor nor Primarch knew that this moment would be the last time they would meet, and that events had been set in motion that would climax in treachery, bloodshed and pain."

I think the new background now has it that the Council of Nikaea banned entirely the use of Librarians/Psykers...?

Is this true?

Has the fluff foolishly shifted in this direction?

And if so, where did this happen?

In the HH CCG artbooks?

Or is it in the new HH series of books?

the emperor and magnus did meet again after nikaea after magnus went through the web way to warn the emperor