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Something a little odd came up in an RT today, figured I would see what people here thought.

Vibro Cannons, eldar codex page 45.
"...draw a single 36" line from one vibro cannon in any direction. Any unit which the line pases though suffers d6 hits."

It goes on to talk about how the number of cannons affects strength of the hits, then...

"A target with an Armour Value that is hit by the vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit; do not roll for armour penetration." (their type-o not mine on the "Armour Value")


So the question is, what happens when the line from a vibro cannon battery hits a squad of vehicles (war walkers, land speeders, sentinels, etc.)?

1) Does the unit take 1d6 hits that each cause an automatic glance?
2) Does the unit suffer 1 automatic glance to a single squad member?
3) Does every member of the unit suffer one automatic glance?
4) Do you ignore the fact that the vehicles are in a squad and just see which ones are hit by the line and each of those takes 1 automatic glancing hit?
5) Does the unit take 1d6 hits that each cause an automatic glance, but each squad member can only be assigned 1 hit and any extras are wasted?
6) Something else?

I am glad that I am not the only one that has had issues with the wonderful vibro cannons. I will first say that the rules on this are incredibly vague and incomplete. So, anyone who claims to know how this should be adjudicated by RAW is crazy.

I would GUESS that the intention is that the squadron of vehicles is a UNIT so it would take D6 hits. But since the target (interchangeable with unit?) has an armor value, the later rule will take precedence and default to the target taking a single glancing hit randomized into one of the vehicles in the squadron.

Again, this is my guess and I would, as the vibro cannon shooter, choose to take the least advantagious ruling to me in a situation that is so unclear.

Just my 2 cents,

Darrian

1: No, vehicles are only affected if the line is drawn through them. Multiple vehicles in a squadron could be affected if the line went through multiple vehicles.
2: No, see 1.
3: No, see 1.
4: Yes, see 1.
5: No, see 1.
6: No, see 1.

Stelek wrote:vehicles are only affected if the line is drawn through them.

The problem is that I don't see any support for that line of logic in the rules for the vibro cannons. The initial "targeting" rules say that after you roll to hit, you pick a point 36" away. After that, it states that "targets" with an armor value take one auto glance. The trouble with the wording is that there are no targets, there is only a target point. Obviously the RAI here for a single armor value model on the line is for it to take 1 auto glance, but both the RAW and the RAI get really murky when you got an armor value squad on the line.

With the rules as they are, I see the most support for options 2, 5, and possibly 3 above with option 2 being the forerunner. My reasoning for this would be the general shooting rules for selecting targets. Unless you have rules that specifically allow you to target individual models in a squad (and there are no such rules for vibro cannons) then you must target units as a whole (which may be squads or individual models such as monstrous creatures and tanks). In the case of shooting at a squad of vehicles, they are treated just like squads of infantry. Shots are fired, hits are calculated, and wounds (damaging hits) are distributed evenly across models in range and line of sight. Now, vibro cannons do not require line of sight and arguably only need to have range to one model in the squad to do full damage (that might be an argument for another time), but I don't see anything in the rules that would remove the squad standing (and thus squad damage assignment) from a squad of vehicles for the purposes of vibro cannon damage.

With that said, the next question is how much damage does the squad take? "A target with an Armour Value that is hit by the vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit;" This could be interpreted a couple of ways.

(2) One would be that the target is the squad itself and thus the squad would take a single glancing hit. The vehicle squad rules state that the closest squad member always takes the first damageing hit, so this hit would be forced on that vehicle. This would keep things consistant with the shooting rules for selecting targets.

(5) Another possible interpretation would be that since the unit is hit, it takes 1d6 hits that are distributed like shooting hits (first one on the closest and then evenly after that). In this interpretation, each individual model that is assigned a hit would be considered "a target". Since the rules specify that they may only take a single hit, any extra hits over the number of squad members present would be wasted. This interpretation would remain consistent with a unit of one vehicle (like a tank) only taking 1 glancing hit.


Thoughts, comments, opinions?

My thoughts are as follows:

1) "targets" are probably intended to be any model/unit that the vibro-cannon "line of fire" passes through.

2) "targets" does not mean that you are "targeting," because these weapons ignore the usual firing rules; therefore abilites that trigger when a unit is "targeted" probably are not triggered by Vibro Cannons

3) There are separate rules for regular "targets" (I.E. those with a toughness value) and targets with an armor value.

4) The rules from here are pretty clear. Vehicles are only affected (regardless if they are in a squad) if they are touched by a Vibro Cannon's line of fire. If they are, they suffer an automatic glancing hit.

I agree with Col Ellios and Stelek.

Units don't have an armor value, only models do (A unit can be made up my a model or models with an armor value, but the fact still remains that models are what have an armor value).

The use of the word "target" has to be in reference to the general usage of the word as opposed to the game definition, especially since the weapon doesn't speecifically target units or models.

Therefore, if the Vibrocannon's line passes through (targets) a vehicle model it suffers a single glancing hit. Vehicles in the squadron that the line doesn't pass through are unaffected.

Can't a "model" also be a "unit?" (sorry, I had to!)

ColonelEllios wrote:Can't a "model" also be a "unit?" (sorry, I had to!)

Certainly. Most tanks and monstrous creatures are examples of single model units.

Units don't have an armor value, only models do (A unit can be made up my a model or models with an armor value, but the fact still remains that models are what have an armor value).

Units don't have toughnesses either. They don't have armor saves and they don't have a lot of other characteristics, models do, but all of that makes no difference when they are being shot at, by vibro cannons or any other weapon. The hits are distributed, wounding is rolled, and saves are taken. All these things are done in the context of the squad and special rules are required to do things differently. While the vibro cannons have special rules, I still don't see anything in their wording that would indicate that you wouldn't treat a vehicle squad as a squad. And as I stated before, either interpretation of the term "target" as 1) as being the unit the line passes though or 2) the model that has been assigned one of the 1d6 hits, seems reasonable. However I am currently failing to see any support for the definition of "target" to be any individual model that the line passes over. This is particularly an issue when it is irrelevant how many models the line crosses in a squad composed of models with a toughness.

So after giving this issue some more thought, I have at least one more argument to put forth in support of my position on this matter.

The crux of the problem with the various interpretations seems to hinge on the definition of “target” in the second portion of the rules quoted above. Now if we look at the sentence as a whole:

"A target with an Armour Value that is hit by the vibro cannon always suffers a single glancing hit; do not roll for armour penetration."

We can see that it specifically states that the “target with an Armour Value that is hit”. The previous rule that applies to units (and units can contain models with an armor value) says that any unit that the vibro cannon line passes though takes 1d6 hits. So if a model is to be a target that is hit, it must be assigned one of the 1d6 hits. Within the vibro cannon rules, that would appear to be the only way for a model to be “hit” and the target must be hit in order to suffer the single glancing hit.

The problem with that interpretation phoenix is that the section of the rule that deals with vehicles comes after the section that deals with infantry squads (which take 1d6 hits), and therefore supercedes the previous rules in the case that the "target" is a vehicle.

Your interpretation is also likely incorrect because it raises some other conflicting questions such as:

-Why does a single tank take one hit but a squadron of two sentinels take 1-6 hits?

-Why stipulate "target with an armor value" over simply "target"? Because any target with an armor value takes 1 hit, not 1-6.

This is getting into an intent argument, but even from RAW:

target unit (unit which the line passes through) does not = target with an armor value (any vehicle touched by the line). Once again, the fact that the second portion of the rule deals with "targets with an armor value" sets a different "subject" for this rule, and thus in the case of "targets with an armor value" the rules stated are used, and not the "target unit" rules that come just prior in the layout.

EDIT: Of course, if you and your gaming group decide that a vibro cannon should hit any/all targets with 1d6 hits, then that's your perogative. Whatever leads to a consensus.

I'm well aware that i am a bit of a new-comer to this site, so please forgive any blatent errors as simple mis-judgement.

My reckoning of the rules focuses on the 'hits' aspect. If vehicles are in a unit/squadron, and one is touched (btw should i measure a vibro-cannon's line of effect with a tape measure or a piece of floss?!), the unit suffers d6 hits. The rule also states that should a model with an armour value be hit (doesn't say how many times it has to be hit) it takes an automatic glancing hit!

I propose this scenario:

Three eldar warwalkers are deployed as a unit at maximum coherency. One member of the unit is struck by a vibro cannon. The unt will now take d6 hits - for arguments sake i'll use 6- distributed in the standard manner. I assign 2 hits to each warwalker; as per the rules each suffers only 1 glancing hit, not 2.

This also applies to units that contain toughness values and armour values. If the vehicle is hit, it takes a (1) glance. If it is hit 49 times, it takes a glance.

I make this proposal on the basis that codex rules outweigh the main rules. As the eldar codex is now older than the rules this may appear stupid. Unless there has been an official FAQ regarding this subject, i would assume this to be fair practise.

Fully wiling to accept criticism and abuse......

your a year late

You're a few years late to grammar school. (Sorry, had to.)

wat? i dunt anderstund wut your seying?

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