Why are Obliterators so automatic?

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**Terminizzle**

Everyone seems to agree that Obliterators need to be included in any Chaos army hoping to be reasonably competitive. Not just 1 squad, either- often 2 or 3. They certainly fulfill a vital role in providing heavy fire in an army that's generally lacking that. They have the inherent benefit of drawing a substantial amount of heavy weapons fire away from some of your other squads as they (the other squads) advance. And of course, they have the extremely useful ability to use myriad different weapons.

Being so few in number, though, means 2 Lascannon shots will often (40/54) reduce the unit to just 1 heavy weapon assuming 2 Oblits are fielded per unit. Even if you have 2 Demon Princes advancing, most opponents who know what they're doing will use their S > 8 weapons to shoot at the Obliterators, and focus on the 3+ save DP with most other weapons. Sure Obliterators can switch through weapons, but how many of their weapons do you realistically use each game? Probably 2 per squad, right?

Keep in mind that I think Obliterators are awesome units, and field them myself. I'm only questioning whether every army must have them to compete, and if 3 units of them is often optimal.

It seems that horde armies are going to become popular in the near future, against which Obliterators are weak by comparison to other units, namely Havocs, and maybe even Predators.

Havocs are resilient. Havocs are good platforms for Lascannons and Plasma Cannons. However, take this unit for example:

5 Havocs; 2 Lascannons- 145 points

5 wounds- most importantly among 5 different models. Should be far enough away that they receive the same type of fire as the Obliterators would have in the same slot, only 2 Lascannon shots doesn't cost you any heavy weapons. Rather than having the possibility of costing you 2, they can't possibly cost you any. They can't select from a variety of weapons, but instead you can field several squads tailored to different roles.

Instead of 3 x 2 Obliterators for 450 points, why is it so out of the question to field 3 specialized Havoc squads for probably fewer points, which will definitely survive longer against the same type of fire? Or how about

5 Havocs; 2 Lascannons- 145
7 Havocs; 4 Heavy Bolters- 165
2 Obliterators- 150

The only thing I haven't brought up yet is Slow and Purposeful, which is a damn good skill for Oblits to have, but the HB Havocs won't be worried about moving with a horde rushing towards them, and the Las Havocs won't be able to see that tank any better after they move D6". Sure Oblits have Deep Strike too, but it's a waste to use.

So, as awesome as Obliterators are, why are they such automatic inclusions, especially in the numbers that they are?

**Stelek**

Ok here's a few reasons:

Park a vehicle in front of Havocs. Havocs neutralized.
Oblits blow it up, or move around it.

Predators scare nobody. Easy to kill/neutralize. Not exactly mavens of mass firepower. Havocs are better but since they can be stymied you have two bad choices.
Oblits with plasma cannons can hurt hordes. That's good enough for me.

Oblits don't need to kill hordes in the Chaos list. EC, PM, and TS will do the job just fine. So why worry about it?

Oblits can sit out in the open, sniping as needed, and hide without having to immobilize themselves. They aren't subject to torrents of fire like havocs and preds are, because they have a 2+ save.

Besides all that, if you want to run anything but Oblits--why aren't you playing Smurfs?

Oblits are Chaos. Everything else is a Loyalist pos with a bad taste in it's mouth. SKIP TY!

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:

Park a vehicle in front of Havocs. Havocs neutralized.
Oblits blow it up, or move around it.

Do Obliterator Lascannons have some different effect than Havoc Lascannons?

Can't 5 Havocs receive 6 (well, more like 5.75) Lascannon shots before they lose a single Lascannon- while the Obliterators are both destroyed? Isn't the Obliterator squad reduced to just one heavy weapon after receiving 2 Lascannon shots?

Don't these things matter to you?

**gdurant**

Terminizzle wrote:
Stelek wrote:

Park a vehicle in front of Havocs. Havocs neutralized.
Oblits blow it up, or move around it.

Do Obliterator Lascannons have some different effect than Havoc Lascannons?

Can't 5 Havocs receive 6 (well, more like 5.75) Lascannon shots before they lose a single Lascannon- while the Obliterators are both destroyed? Isn't the Obliterator squad reduced to just one heavy weapon after receiving 2 Lascannon shots?

Don't these things matter to you?

those are my thought, and honestly I've rarely seen people make use of the slow and purposeful rules. Mostly people parl them into ruins for the better 4+ save and are insta-killed by lascannon and missle fire.

**Cypher037**

those are my thought, and honestly I've rarely seen people make use of the slow and purposeful rules. Mostly people parl them into ruins for the better 4+ save and are insta-killed by lascannon and missle fire.

Then those people are fools. Parking a vehicle in front of havocs neutralizes them because even if they destroy the vehicle, it still blocks LoS. Oblits just thank you for the cover, whereas havocs are already in 4+ cover.

Really what makes them better is slow and purposeful. The ability to move and shoot is invaluable. You can make your way towards mid board objectives. It's much harder to hide from them. Oblits aren't restricted to deploying in cover either. Also, lascannons are almost twice as expensive than missile launchers in havoc squads, but lascannons are still a necessary part of the army. Including oblits frees up the havocs to take missile launchers/autocannons.

I think the best HS selection for chaos looks like this:

8 havocs with 2 missile launchers and 2 auto cannons
6 oblits

-Leo037

**Stelek**

Well, fools isn't nice. lol

Twin linked meltaguns, your vehicle dies, I get cover, I continue firing next turn...and if you parked in front of me, how am I dying to lascannon fire?

Unsure how I die to missile fire, are they AP2 now or am I getting hit with so many missiles I roll '1's alot?

Most of my lists feature Oblits because the rest of the Chaos army is so damn slow and inflexible, you gotta take what little bits of good there are in it and use them.

I guess my question for you guys is, if you could field Oblits in Loyalist armies would you still field Devs and Preds?

I know I wouldn't.

**Longshot**

If you park a vehicle within 12" of havocs, they fire two lascannons.

If you park a vehicle within 12" of oblits, you get:
1) possibly close range twinlink meltad
2) Possibly charged by 6 pf or chainfist (I forget) attacks afterward
3) accomplish nothing.

You need oblits because it's the only place to get reliable cost-effective move-and-shoot lascannons. You can't take enough static lascannons to make them worthwhile.

**Terminizzle**

How about this- why would you "park a vehicle" 12" in front of either unit?

**Stelek**

It's power fists.

Sure Oblits can die to lots of lascannon fire.

Don't pretend like there's nothing else on the board getting your attention though.

Oblits can make saves, after all. Please, no math. lol

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:

Sure Oblits can die to lots of lascannon fire.

Don't pretend like there's nothing else on the board getting your attention though.

Oblits can make saves, after all. Please, no math. lol

The point is, it's not LOTS of lascannon fire.

I specifically addressed your second point already.

Please no math? Is that a joke?

**Tacobake**

Terminizzle wrote:
Stelek wrote:

Sure Oblits can die to lots of lascannon fire.

Don't pretend like there's nothing else on the board getting your attention though.

Oblits can make saves, after all. Please, no math. lol

The point is, it's not LOTS of lascannon fire.

I specifically addressed your second point already.

Please no math? Is that a joke?

I think that's why when people take them they're not happy with just 2. 2 means you can kiss at least 1 good-bye and maybe even both. 4 or 6 or even just 3 leaves you with some serious anti-tank to complement the rest of your army and your other heavy support.

But there's nothing wrong with Havocs if you don't mind leaving them dumped in your deployment zone. Oblits can move a good 18"+ in the course of a game. And each one of those lascannons has to hit, wound and pass the invul save. I once saw a Wraithlord and Obliterator exchanging shots for two or three turns.

It's the same as anything else. If someone _really_ wants to kill your obliterators, they can. Take a Vindi and a Land Raider noone is going to be shooting at your Obliterators.

Are Oblits fearless? That's an edge over ld 8 Dev squads (fall back from their position) but Havocs do OK with ld9 or even ld10.

**shogun**

Terminizzle wrote: The only thing I haven't brought up yet is Slow and Purposeful, which is a damn good skill for Oblits to have, but the HB Havocs won't be worried about moving with a horde rushing towards them, and the Las Havocs won't be able to see that tank any better after they move D6". Sure Oblits have Deep Strike too, but it's a waste to use.

So, as awesome as Obliterators are, why are they such automatic inclusions, especially in the numbers that they are?

Most chaos armies are carrying a few icons..deepstriking isnt that bad because you can teleport near a icon. this way your sure you can shoot first before getting shot yourself... it makes the obliterators very flexible. The only problem you can have is bad reserves-rolls..but it depends what your facing if you want to deepstrike or not.

Also I love the Multi Melta option!!! deepstriking Obliterators in front of a landraider... If you scatter outside the 12 inch melta range? just shoot with lascannons and hope it gets stunned..next turn you can use your multi-melta anyway..!

**gdurant**

Before I get blasted I'm not saying oblits are bad in any form or fashion. And I agree a mix of oblits and havocs are a good choice.
Personally I just treat havocs like I do broadsides. Hit them with a couple ap 2 insta-kill weapons and move on. There mobility is nice, but let be honest. Do you play with people who take rhinos just to throw in your face because they know that there coffins anyway? They only time I've gone near oblits or havocs I'm dropping of a unit of harlies of deepstriking some plasma vets.
The movement is kill though when you get to move into some 4+ cover in the center of a board.

I think the issue will always be the ability to be instakilled. Oblits come with so much flexibility but a stray lascannon shot depletes your firepower by 50%. Havoc, while not as mobile become tough as havocs though the amount of wounds/immunity to instakill. That said they don't have in flexibility of oblits with their weapons or movment. but their is something to be said when your heavy support is pretty much gone by turn 2.

**kadun**

Terminizzle wrote:How about this- why would you "park a vehicle" 12" in front of either unit?

To block the line of sight for either unit. The Oblits can move to get a clear shot and then fire, the Havocs are neutralized for at least one turn.

**Terminizzle**

Tacobake wrote: And each one of those lascannons has to hit, wound and pass the invul save.

Yeah I know, I did out the math above. Just 5 Havocs should be a lot more durable than 2 oblits against the kind of fire obliterators tend to draw. The only extra fire they may draw is AP 3 like missile launchers, but that's not a bad result at all- lose a 15 point marine rather than a wound off one of your Demon Princes.

While it's a cute trick to deepstrike them down real close to a land raider, I never DS oblits because you lose 2 turns (Turn 1 + 3/6 + 2/6 + 1/6) of shooting with them, a full third of the game. Plus by turn 3 there will be fewer beefy targets for your opponent.

If it weren't for slow and purposeful, I really think I'd be strongly against Obliterators. But it makes a huge difference.

And Stelek, I most certainly didn't say I think Predators are better.

**Terminizzle**

kadun wrote:
Terminizzle wrote:How about this- why would you "park a vehicle" 12" in front of either unit?

To block the line of sight for either unit. The Oblits can move to get a clear shot and then fire, the Havocs are neutralized for at least one turn.

Uhh I understand the result, but why would anybody ever do that? I'll trade 1 turn of shooting with 2 Heavy Weapons for their tank, sure. It's not like D6" means the Obliterators are completely impervious to this tactic, eitiher.

If the tank isn't a falcon, why would it even make it to within 12" ?

**Stelek**

If you think a 35 point Rhino or Trukk is worth it, you are incorrect.

Falcons don't block LOS. /sigh

Even forcing target priority with a skimmer is worth it.

Same thing with turboboosting bikers.

Do you actually play 40k, bud? These are all well-known common tactics to shut down heavy weapon squads.

**Stormtrooper X**

What drives me nuts the most about facing Oblits is the twin-linked plasma guns. Nothing like taking a Terminator squad over to put some heavy hurt on these guys only have em completely melted. There are a couple Chaos players in my group who go through withdrawls if they don't have at least 2 oblits in their army every game. I don't blame them. However, they were crying pretty hard when their toughness got nerfed.

**Blackmoor**

I asked a similar question a little while ago.

First off, you need to realize that Chaos armies need lascannons. The long range, high strength, high AP weaponry can’t be matched. You need it for Monoliths, Land Raiders, Leman Russes, TMC with extended carapace, Terminators, other Oblits, etc. Anti-horde and other roles can be handled by other units.

Then you have to ask yourself how do you get Lascannons into your army? You talked about Havocs w/2 Lascannons. Havocs are a very static unit. A lot of armies can just use speed and terrain like Eldar and Tau to block their LOS so they can’t shoot at the targets they want to shoot at. Also they start in a position where they can be shot, so if you lose the roll to go first, you will eat a lot of fire. They are not fearless so they are taking morale at LD 9, and after losing 3 models they are taking it at LD8 and if they break they are never coming back. There are other ways to get lascannons into a Chaos army, but they are not very good either. 6 Chosen with 1 Lascannon cost as much as 2 oblits and they have the same problem as the Havocs. Land Raiders cost the same a 3 oblits, and they can’t really move and shoot anymore, and they can be stunned, and Predators can be taken out by one shot, etc. 10 CSM can take them too, but the whole squad has to shoot the same target, and that is a waste of the squads shooting for a squad that costs around 250 points.

Oblits, on the other hand, can move and that is one of the most important reasons for why they are better. They can stand behind terrain on turn #1 so they can't be targeted, and then move up to shoot. They can also move so that terrain is in the way so they can minimize the return fire from the few weapons that Oblits hate.

They are also very survivable. With the exception of strength 8+ ap2 weaponry (and there is a lot less out there that then there use to be), they are very hard to kill, unlike the Havocs that can be taken out by missile launchers, heavy bolters, and other anti-infantry weapons. 2 wounds and a 2+ save makes a huge difference in survivability.

And although they lost some versatility in this addition, the fact that they can change weapons really makes them a lot better than almost any unit that can take a lascannons. For example, they have flamers and plasma cannons incase you are going against a true horde where your lascanons will do no good. If you get close enough to a vehicle the Melta Gun is much better than a Lascannon. If you are up against a DP or a TMC, TL Plasma Guns are much better. Also if you encounter deep-striking terminators, a Plasma Cannon shot will wreak them, etc.

So to sum it up, their mobility, durability and their weapon selection puts them ahead of any other unit.

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:If you think a 35 point Rhino or Trukk is worth it, you are incorrect.

Falcons don't block LOS. /sigh

Even forcing target priority with a skimmer is worth it.

Same thing with turboboosting bikers.

Do you actually play 40k, bud? These are all well-known common tactics to shut down heavy weapon squads.

Obviously I don't think a Rhino or Trukk is worth it. Luckily Rhinos suck, but I have no idea about trukks.

I didn't intimate that Falcons do block LOS, I merely asked what tank besides a Falcon (or any skimmer, but cited Falcons specifically because I haven't really encountered any other skimmers with any regularity) would be within 12" of my Havocs Turn 1 (Turn 1 was implied in the context). / sigh. I can see why everyone here seems to like you so much.

Turboboosting bikers? Yeah.. I really see those all over the place.

Obviously forcing a Heavy Weapons squad (or any body especially proficient at ranged combat) to shoot at something less valuable is a common tactic. Here's a hint: that's not exclusive to 40k, or tabletop games by any means, bud.

Why do you act like Obliterators are substantially better against such a tactic? They're not.

**Stelek**

Not here to be 'liked', just to dish out the truth.

Let's see: Rhinos might suck, but if the other guy gets them in your line of fire....well, oblits can move and havocs cannot.

My Piranhas end up in front of enemy Dev squads constantly.

You don't see turboboosting bikers? Funny, I have run them in almost every army I can.

How's this for a better choice...a drop pod wall in front of your devs?

Good luck getting my anti-tank guns to shoot at non-tanks in FOW. Superior ruleset, so it isn't fair I challenge your silly comment with it but you did make it.
Unless you're running some transports full of infantry then of course I'll probably take such nice gifts.

Oblits can move! Oblits can shoot at your tank AND assault it. When the tank blows up, there's a very small chance you'll get a wound off on my 2 oblits. The larger Havoc squads with 5-8 guys and the worse save just take more wounds. It doesn't matter to you, but all of these things DO make a difference.

I still ask why play with Loyalist units with 'evil' written on them, then play with Chaos units the Loyalists don't get?

Seems very silly to me. You want to run Havocs? Play regular Space Marines! They're much better than you'll ever be!

**Terminizzle**

Stelek wrote:Not here to be 'liked', just to dish out the truth.

Why? What does that accomplish? It doesn't seem like you're interested in helping misguided players, only telling them how badly "your unit X crushes their unit Y" Well yeah, every unit has a foil. Bringing up a few circumstances where the player seeking advice has made a poor choice by comparison isn't dishing out the truth.

Stelek wrote:
Let's see: Rhinos might suck, but if the other guy gets them in your line of fire....well, oblits can move and havocs cannot.

Yeah, by "Rhinos suck" I didn't mean Rhinos weren't effective at blocking LoS, I meant since Rhinos suck, I'm not especially worried about seeing them very often.

Stelek wrote:
My Piranhas end up in front of enemy Dev squads constantly.

My Dev squads kill tanks constantly. OMG! A pointless anecdote proving I must be correct!

Stelek wrote:
You don't see turboboosting bikers? Funny, I have run them in almost every army I can.

And how many people are you? See above.

Stelek wrote:
How's this for a better choice...a drop pod wall in front of your devs?

Well, it's more realistic than a Rhino in front of them I think. Again though, I'm not saying Havocs are immune to this relatively commonplace tactic, I'm saying Oblits also are not immune to it, which you seem to have ignored again.

Stelek wrote:
Good luck getting my anti-tank guns to shoot at non-tanks in FOW. Superior ruleset, so it isn't fair I challenge your silly comment with it but you did make it.
Unless you're running some transports full of infantry then of course I'll probably take such nice gifts.

Unfortunately I can't respond to this point since I have no idea what you're saying. In regards to calling some comment (I'm not even sure which) I've made silly, where did that get the discussion? In case you haven't noticed, by creating and defending one argument in this thread I have knowingly chosen the side of the discussion that is generally accepted by many 40k players to be the losing side, in interest of stimulating discussion. I have to say I've read a lot of your posts, but haven't seen you approach a thread with this in mind once. I don't know if it's because you think you know all there is to know about 40k (although you certainly act like it) or because you just like making other people feel inferior (on an internet forum), but it certainly gets old. I'm new to this forum, and not trying to make enemies, but you're making it very difficult with your snide one liners that contribute little to any discussion. To be honest, I fully expect your next reply to be something along the lines of "personal attacks ftw" when all I'm trying to do is keep you from preventing a well thought-out discussion, especially since it does seem that you would have a lot to contribute if you chose to do so in a different manner.

Stelek wrote:
Oblits can move! Oblits can shoot at your tank AND assault it. When the tank blows up, there's a very small chance you'll get a wound off on my 2 oblits. The larger Havoc squads with 5-8 guys and the worse save just take more wounds. It doesn't matter to you, but all of these things DO make a difference.

Oblits can move D6". They're not very mobile. For every point you bring up where Obliterators are better, you've failed to address at least as many points where Havocs are better. Again, I understand that Obliterators are generally better and generally everybody knows that, but it's not by a huge margin, and there are situations that are not uncommon where it's better to have Havocs.

Stelek wrote:
I still ask why play with Loyalist units with 'evil' written on them, then play with Chaos units the Loyalists don't get?

Nice contribution.

Stelek wrote:
Seems very silly to me. You want to run Havocs? Play regular Space Marines! They're much better than you'll ever be!

Right.

**Stelek**

Ok, you win. You spewed so much BS I don't really want to read it all. Death by pointless comments.

**gdurant**

Brutal,

To summarize for the OP the question of whether or not obits are automatic.

Oblits are better than havocs in every way save for instakill threat. Some of us believe that mixing 5 man havocs with 2 can be as effective and slightly more survivable. Park them in some four+ cover and let the oblits move up with the rest of the army.

If your wanting to maximise your list I'd say go for the oblits though. Just know that they aren't a deal breaker.

**boyd**

one rule why Oblits rule so much: DEEP STRIKE.

That rule makes the Oblits. I don't know how many times I've fielded the oblits and they deepstrike and surprise the enemy by hitting them from behind or the side. It makes them that much more effective.

**Terminizzle**

gdurant wrote:
Oblits are better than havocs in every way save for instakill threat. Some of us believe that mixing 5 man havocs with 2 can be as effective and slightly more survivable. Park them in some four+ cover and let the oblits move up with the rest of the army.

This is 100% of my thinking on the subject. All I wanted to know was why this Havoc squad is so rarely considered over Obliterators, and it seems that players who have done any math whatsoever put a little more thought into whether that 3rd slot should be Oblits or maybe Havocs. I don't think Deep Strike or the D6" movement has much to do with it, but on paper those 2 factors definitely feel like a big difference.

**Arcoslippy**

I prefer oblits because they offer more tactical and strategic flexibility. Havoc move OR fire, oblits can do both witch mean with havocs you either sacrifice turns to react to developments on the battlefield or waste time on less desirable targets. Also you to correctly guess what army you will be up against to get the most out of your havocs while oblits are less concerned about that are more of a take all comers kind of unit. That's not a problem if you can adjust your list however you may not always be allowed to do that. However not every army has to be an exercise in efficiency, if you like havocs more then rock on, 40k is still a game no matter what anybody says.

**Spellbound**

Meh, the basic tenant I have with oblits is that I can put them behind terrain for the "what if you go 2nd" bit and if I go first, move into LOS and fire to full effect. Also they can stand up to an assault and kill MCs, while normal havocs are incredibly vulnerable.