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Are they really as bad as everyone makes them out to be?

My case:

If you're using guardians in the first place, you obviously aren't running a mech list. It's generally accepted the scatter laser is the best weapon option for platforms. However, the three man jetbike squad with a shuricannon is almost always a better option. But if you start loading up on jetbikes, the infantry saturation in your army will likely fall too low. This could be remedied by dropping all the infantry, but well all know that works and there isn't much point in discussing this if we just give up at "Tri-falcon is the ubers!".

Multi shot S6 weapons are very common in Eldar lists. In fact, you don't even really need to think about getting them into your lists for your list to be full of them. However, long ranged, high S weapons are very rare for eldar; the most common of which being found on the fire prism. But fire prisms are much better when they don't have to concentrate their mediocre tank hunting ability on tanks and can make use of their amassing blasts against infantry. This leads us back to guardians.

For a humble 5 more points than the scatter laser, we can get an EML. But why take something that statistically does nothing half the game? I here you say. Two reasons. Statistically, the scatter laser kills .55 of a marine. The EML kills .42 of a marine. Not a huge difference, especially considering that anti-infantry isn't even the role that EMLs are taken for. The scales tip more towards the scatter laser when shooting into cover, but never mind that the EML has an AP 4, pinning blast shot as well for GEQs. Second reason: TAKE MORE THAN ONE SQUAD! Of course one squad will miss half the game, but 2 or more squads will make them as reliable as if they were a multi shot weapon --just in more parts.

Furthermore, they have better range. More specifically, their range is greater than a heavy bolter's. And we all know how common 4 HB devs are. Lastly, they're complimented nicely by the ever-common Eldratar. Fearless makes them useful down to the last pansee, and guide is oh-so-much more useful on single shot weapons than on multi-shot weapons.

-LE037

I like brightlances in my Guardian squads.

I need anti-tank in my army rather than worrying about MEQs and GEQs. I have other units for killing them.

I field my guardians with a wide variety of weapons. Scatter lasers, star cannons, and bright lances all make it into the mix. I don't really like the missile launcher because the star cannon and scatter laser do more damage to troops and the bright lance does more damage to vehicles. Specialization is the strength of the eldar and half assing one for a bit of ability at doing the other is something I find unacceptable. With that being said, there is nothing wrong with taking bright lances on guardian squads. The fact of the matter is that there is only one place in the codex where you can take a non-BS 3 bright lance and that's on the dreadnaught. The other thing to consider is that the guardians are only "doing nothing half the game" if you use them poorly. Guardians are a rather mobile unit since they can move and shoot their weapon platform so they can run around all over the place and do whatever they can. They are good objective grabbers in late game turns since they can fleet. They are also good interception units because the enemy will often pull themselves out of position to get into hand to hand with the squishy guardians thus allowing you to set up the most viable counter charge. The final thing that's interesting about guardians is that many opponents ignore them. Since they are so cheep and in general not very dangerous many players will avoid shooting them to concentrate on other targets. This gives them more time to manuver into position to be effective. A final point of note is that you shouldn't completely disregard the shuriken catapults. They can be quite useful when enemy units start closing in on your back field units. Just move the guardians up and let lose. When it comes to farseers, however, guardians are probably best ignored. Unless you are in range for catapult fire, guide and doom are a waste on guardians and with a 5+ save (or even a cover save) fortune is much better used on more expensive troops that are going to be attracting a lot more attention.

No naysayers out there? Or does everyone agree that single shot weapons are viable and/or competitive on guardian weapon platforms?

-LE037

Why wouldn't they be. BS3 is BS3 no matter what platform gun you have. I despise those who cry over an EML missing half the time yet are happy to call 2 crappy Scatter laser shots landed a great success

In fact I prefer Lance and EML platforms. You'll get the full potential of the platform 50% of the times you shoot it. You'll land all 4 scatter laser shots.... about 6% of the time.

I take Scatter Lasers, because I used to take Star Cannons and also because I like to match anit-infantry heavy weapon with Shuriken Catapults.

That said I find them to be somewhat lacklustre and I have been considering taking brightlances, and then Fire Prism for anti-infantry. I just find the Scatter Laser is largely ineffective against MEQ whereas the old 3 shot Starcannon was always good for a kill or two.

Taking heavy weapons gives you some extra early game anti-vehicle shooting. Perfect to help stop that Hammerhead, Pred or Russ from ruining your day. Once the vehicles are done with turn 3 or so the guardians can do what they were BORN TO DO, what they were BRED TO DO*, and can light something up shuri-cat style. Guide & Doom optional.

*too many movies.

edit: having read your post and gotten past my 5:00 am -isitis, I agree regarding Fire Prisms, heck I agree about pretty much everything. Besides, Blackmoor is the American Kasparov, if it is good enough for him it is good enough for the rest of us

"Blackmoor is the American Kasparov" that is so true.

I learned the value of guardian squads with brightlances from Blackmoor. If they are good enough for him, they are good enough for me.

Darrian

HpY:

In fact I prefer Lance and EML platforms. You'll get the full potential of the platform 50% of the times you shoot it. You'll land all 4 scatter laser shots.... about 6% of the time.

I use BL/EML platforms myself, but man, how many times do I have to call you on this bs? Yes, you get the full potential of the BL/EML platform 50% of the time. You also get nothing 50% of the time. Yes, you only get the full potential of the scatter 6% of the time. You also get nothing only 6% of the time.

As a measure, this statistic you love so much is useless, at least the way you use it.

I'll bite.

I use Guardians in an advancing foot list, for the most part. That sort of list is well supported by Wraithlords with EML/BL, who have a better BS and better number of heavy weapons for their investment. With 6 BS4 anti-tank weapons there, plus usually at least two bike squads with spears (or Spiders or whatever fast units you may prefer) going around the flanks, anti-tank is covered better than it could be by even 4 squads of BL or EML Guardians. In fact, in my model I really _need_ the Guardians on anti-infantry duty. Two to three scatterlasers in their hands, plus catapults if I've stalled fast CC coming in, are much more useful than 3 more BLs.

Even in a static gunline, Guardians are better in the anti-infantry role. While you may have Reapers and pathfinders taking out infantry and warwalkers blasting away with scatterlasers already, anti-tank can be better handled by vibrocannon batteries or your few fast maneuver elements. Maybe two units of BL guardians could help in this situation, but they won't be enough.

At best, single-shot guardians can be icing on the anti-tank cake- but they're never going to be enough to depend on, even as a supplemental element.

I'm with you Savnock. My two EML/BL wraithlords usually have anti tank down pat. My guardians are all about anti infantry, I find the starcannon puts out enough shots to kill the enemy elite fairly well, no need to guide them either. I used to use the scatter lasers build, but after too many games of marines making the 4 saves needed, I started put starcannons in there and now I use them to hunt Deep stiking terms, assault marines trying to set up charges, and when no elite infantry is around to plug away at, they double as long shot light vehicle support. They don't do as well in this roll as the higher shot scatter lasers, but like I said, I use them primarily to deny armor saves and only hunt vehicles if no other targets are available.

If I am going to have one shot weapons putting two of them on wraithlords with BS 4 means that I get more bang for the points.

I don't think one shot weapons in guardian squads is a waste, but I don't think it is very efficient either, unless you are stacking against the Grey knight player that brings 3 land raiders full of terms and knights. In that case spam the BL everywhere for the win.

Meph

I concur with Savnock + Mephistoles1. Scatter lasers are the right weapon for Guardian squads, for the reasons already given.

doesn't it necessarily depend on the composition of the list?

my first choice with weapon selection for units is to avoid contradicting the basic gear with the heavy weapon in target selection. but guardians have short range and generally walk, so they'll have plenty of time to fire a long range heavy if that's what you need. it's not as if the missile launchers are terrible against infantry when it comes to that either.

But in 40k its always better to specalize rather than generalize. Yes you may beat him slightly in all but one aspect but that one aspect will usually rip you a new one.

Ratbarf wrote:doesn't it necessarily depend on the composition of the list?

This is what I've found to generally be true: If you're using fire prisms (notice how 'prism' always plural --I didn't even mean to do that ), single shot platforms are a good idea. If you're using snakes on a plane, it's better to stick with multi shot platforms. The latter is the stronger of the claims.

The reason single shot platforms are better with fire prisms is because are reliable enough anti-tank to consider them in list building and how much overall anti-you should have, but it's not their optimal role. So by including another unit that prefers anti-tank, but has other roles as well (IE single shot platform guardians), you free up the prim. While versatility is ordinarily a bad thing when weighed against specialization, in this case, both units are good enough at their preferred role to be effectively performing only it the entire game, but good enough with their 'off' roles to still be worth it. It's not generalization, it's utility. Also, this prepares for a tournament play better, as in tournaments people often either flood tanks/MCs or drought them.

A widely accepted dual role unit is 3 bikes and a destructor/spear warlock. Also dragons with a crackshot/flamer exarch. Just to prove duality is not always a bad thing.

If you use dragons, anti-tank is pretty much summed up. Not much is needed to support them. Ergo, go with the multi shot weapons.

I just realized this, two classic eldar paradigms are clashing here. "units have a specific purpose" and "units have to support each other".

-LE037