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Now that the heat has died down, and hopefully cooler heads prevail, I have a curious question:

Why is it that Kriegmarines are OK, but the "other" WW2-themed army was run out of town on a rail?

Would someone care to share some insight?

----
edited to add link to the "other" army...

its not

The moment you pull out a mini with a Swastika or Red Star is the moment I go have a nice discussion with the store manager to help insure you'll never play in that store again.

Frankly the Kreig cross he has painted all over everything reminds me of some Klan badges I've seen. I am not impressed.

I blame games for the whole modern idealisation of nazi culture among todays youth. The problem is most of us don't have any interaction with people effected by them so they start to become the "cool elite trained underdogs" rather than what they really are, monstrous.

Not to mention, Nazi armys are cliched as hell. For all these people that claim "its just historic" you sure don't see alot of soviet or american ww2 themed armies in 40k

Whoah, never saw that one. Uh, apply everything I said in the other one to that one. I think his paintjob is punishment enough.

HF, yeah probably. All those WW2 shooter games have you play against the nazis so some people be like, "Oh man those poor dudes I'm shooting at."

I might make Soviet or American WW2 cadians to go along with my brit WW1 dudes. They'll man the tanks and APCs while the trench-diggers make their graves. It'll be awesome and I bet my dudes can beat your WW1/WW2 dudes.

Both armies show a serious lack in judgment and taste.

I would probably not play against someone w/ this style army if they walked into my flgs.

It's unfortunate since the one is painted extremely well. It's a big waste of talent.

I looked at the thread and I just didnt see the problem. I guess I'm just not very PC. I'd be glad to play him, and my pitiful "vanilla" figs would pale by comparison.

If we're going to go along the lines of "Screw Historics the Nazis were evil bastages" then shouldn't we also get offended when someone plays White Scars or anything modeled after Mongols? Valhallans for being modeled after Stalin's army? Anyone who plays anything that has to do with the Japanese during the 30's and 40's? Perhaps the Spaniards? Please people, they're just miniatures. If someone wants to spend the money and time and effort to paint them in a Nazi like theme then more power to them. To say that some of these culture's are ok to mimic and yet Nazis are some forbidden taboo is ridiculous. If you see a thread with minis painted in a theme you don't like here's an idea... DON'T GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!. Honestly now, it's not that hard.

I have a problem with armies that use existing iconographies of killer regimes. That includes Nazis, WWII Japanese and Fascist Italy/Spain, as well as anything Communist. Frankly, although far less aggravated, I have a problem with the US/UK flag, or anything else real world.

This is a fantasy game. If you want to play historicals I have no problem with that, but go play historicals. Putting that stuff on a 40K list is the modelling equivalent of trolling and I respond to it in the same manner.

Stormtrooper X wrote:If we're going to go along the lines of "Screw Historics the Nazis were evil bastages" then shouldn't we also get offended when someone plays White Scars or anything modeled after Mongols? Valhallans for being modeled after Stalin's army? Anyone who plays anything that has to do with the Japanese during the 30's and 40's? Perhaps the Spaniards? Please people, they're just miniatures. If someone wants to spend the money and time and effort to paint them in a Nazi like theme then more power to them. To say that some of these culture's are ok to mimic and yet Nazis are some forbidden taboo is ridiculous. If you see a thread with minis painted in a theme you don't like here's an idea... DON'T GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!. Honestly now, it's not that hard.

Mongolian nomadic society still exists though? Also last I checked there werent many victims of the Mongolian horde still alive.

dressing up like a mongol might get you some funny looks, but noone would normally have a problem with it. Try doing it as a Nazi and you'd most likely get your ass kicked. The Nazis weren't very long ago, and many familys were effected by them relatively recently. They waged the single most dispassionate, industrialised and evil genocide in the history of humanity and glorifying them is not only tasteless as hell, but disrespectful.

HF wrote:

Stormtrooper X wrote:If we're going to go along the lines of "Screw Historics the Nazis were evil bastages" then shouldn't we also get offended when someone plays White Scars or anything modeled after Mongols? Valhallans for being modeled after Stalin's army? Anyone who plays anything that has to do with the Japanese during the 30's and 40's? Perhaps the Spaniards? Please people, they're just miniatures. If someone wants to spend the money and time and effort to paint them in a Nazi like theme then more power to them. To say that some of these culture's are ok to mimic and yet Nazis are some forbidden taboo is ridiculous. If you see a thread with minis painted in a theme you don't like here's an idea... DON'T GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!. Honestly now, it's not that hard.

Mongolian nomadic society still exists though? Also last I checked there werent many victims of the Mongolian horde still alive.

dressing up like a mongol might get you some funny looks, but noone would normally have a problem with it. Try doing it as a Nazi and you'd most likely get your ass kicked. The Nazis weren't very long ago, and many familys were effected by them relatively recently. They waged the single most dispassionate, industrialised and evil genocide in the history of humanity and glorifying them is not only tasteless as hell, but disrespectful.

Word.

In FOW, there are german armies and there are SS armies.

I don't play the SS armies. They offend me.

In 40K, there are no such armies. Bringing them into 40K is making a statement.

Most of us hear it quite plainly. It offends us.

Since I saw "that thread" a few days ago there is something I wanted to say. THE IMPERIUM ARE NOT NAZI'S.

HF - I play IG and actually went for a WII US army theme with my troops. I used the US gas mask heads from west wind games on cadian bodies. and painted my infantry in olive drabs and khakis. My tanks however have an armageddon style paintjob as there were just too many catachan green tanks in my gaming club. So I guess its more Steel legion than anything else. No white stars.

I agree that WWII german or Nazi themed armies are just a bad idea. You are all most guaranteed to offend someone. I'm not sure why steel legion, kriegmarines and Flames of War are ok and WII Nazi imperial guard armies are not. Though nicley painted, my guess is it was that particuliar armies addition of the Thor theme which wreaks of Neo Nazi racism in conjunction with the Iron cross and nazi troops and eagles painted on the tanks, along with the battle of britain panoramas that makes it obviously more blatant. For those who claimed the Iron Cross is a symbol used by modern German forces, and that army had nothing to do with Nazis, over on Warseer that gentleman advertised the fact that his army was based on WWII german forces and norse imagery. To claim otherwise is ridiculous.

As to accusations that the Imperium basically are Nazi's. I disagree. Most of 40k is based on Ancient Roman imagery and theme. Hence all the capes. The Nazi party was famous for stealing the imagery of the Roman empire. I think people tend to confuse the two. The emperor is not Hitler, he is the god emperor in the tradition of the Roman emperors. The Inquisition is not the SS. The Inquisition is the Inquisition as in the Roman Inquistitors and later on in history the Spanish Inquisition. The Sisters of Battle are lets face it Nuns with Guns. Should that be offensive to catholics? Yeah Maybe. The difference is probably in the ammount of time that has past in history. Many victims of WWII are still alive and those attrocities are still fresh in peoples minds.

I may have just Locked this thread but thats my point of view.

Stormtrooper X wrote:If we're going to go along the lines of "Screw Historics the Nazis were evil bastages" then shouldn't we also get offended when someone plays White Scars or anything modeled after Mongols? Valhallans for being modeled after Stalin's army? Anyone who plays anything that has to do with the Japanese during the 30's and 40's? Perhaps the Spaniards? Please people, they're just miniatures. If someone wants to spend the money and time and effort to paint them in a Nazi like theme then more power to them. To say that some of these culture's are ok to mimic and yet Nazis are some forbidden taboo is ridiculous. If you see a thread with minis painted in a theme you don't like here's an idea... DON'T GO BACK TO THAT THREAD!. Honestly now, it's not that hard.

Stormtrooper is right, many other offensive and more destructive cultures are apparently fine with players but not those evil Nazis. I think it has more to do with the direct involvement many Europeans had with the Nazis as opposed to the remote by either time (Mongols) or distant (Japanese/Southeast Asian regimes) contact with the other cultures. As an younger American (31) I have not had not had direct involvement so I would consider the Khumer Regime and Stalin to be way worse than Nazis based on simple numbers and length of time of their reign.

But Nazis also had visual style which will also get a stronger reaction because it's not another ravaging horde like the Mongols or savages, it is specifically the Nazis, and since there are still people who actually promote Nazism and promotes their ideology and so on they can be considered 'curent'. Noone claims to be bringing back the Mongol Hordes, noone promotes Stalinism anymore in Europe or the US. Basically if popular culture had let the Nazis become history instead of idealizing them then we wouldn't be in this hypocritical situation.

The 'Swastika' (the asian original), Eagle and the Iron Cross predate the Nazi's but they have become branded to that style so having them on an army gets a certain reaction. It's kinda sad to lose the ability to use historical symbols because a fasion designer decided to associate them with a terrible regime.

Not to make presumptions, but I would guess that several people in this thread and the last have fairly "progressive" viewpoints, probably up to the point that you would make me look like Rush Limbaugh. Yet, when it comes to something that offends you, the response is exactly the same as the bible thumpers I went to school with. There are people who, not necessarily accusing anyone here, who will gripe about censorship, but will immediatley call for the removal of anything *they* precieve as racist or offensive.

I may not agree with, appreciate, or even understand, say, a statue of the Virgin Mary created from feces, but the artist has a right to create it and display it.

Also I agree with Stormtrooper that if you dont like it, dont look at it. Talking about it just encourages it. Me, I would never have thought to do something like that, but if you tell me I can't, I'll do it just to mess with people.

Heavygear wrote:. I'm not sure why Flames of War are ok and WII Nazi imperial guard armies are not. .

It basically comes down to the fact you can play historical battles and not feel any sort of connection in regards to the particular political inclinations of the sides, being purely interested in the combat and capabilities of the respective armies, whereas taking the color scheme and imagery of one particullar side and extrapolating it onto something completely unasccosiated with that is making a statement about your feelings towards it.

As someone who plays historical wargames and sci-fi/fantasy wargames, who has studied a bit of the subjects of Germany and WWII, and who has family and friends who served and fought on both sides during the war, I have developed some pretty specific, and pretty strong feelings about this matter.

Let me also say up front that I have German army for Flames of War, and am also working on a Soviet army.

Now, as to the original topic, I find the more that I see sci-fi and fantasy armies that are "based" on WWII Germany, the Soviet Union, or other military forces associated with extremist governments, the more I find it distasteful, and depending on the execution, a bit sickening.

As to the army that was recently "run out on a rail" in the modeling forum, I will say this: It was beautifully painted, and aside from some of the flags, didn't bother me that much. I thought the aerial recognition flag that just replaced the swastika with an iron cross was unnecessary, but the majority of the army was extremely well done and pulled from enough other non-Nazi sources that it didn't bother me.

The Kriegmarines on the other hand are nowhere near as well done (no offense to the Kriegmarine painter, but the other army was painted to a truly exceptional standard), and also in much poorer taste, in my opinion.

This may seem hypocritical to some that I find sci-fi or fantasy armies based on WWII Germany to be distasteful at best, but am okay with actual German armies in a WWII game, but please allow me to explain myself.

I think if you're modeling a German unit in a historical context, using historically accurate color schemes and equipment, and are doing it respectfully (i.e. in a way that is not glorifying units with histories of war crimes and that sort of thing) that there is no problem. I actually see this as a good thing because it can be used as a teaching tool, is promoting historical research and better understanding of the topic, and helps to ensure that the history is remembered.

I also think there is a limit to what should be modeled in good taste though. While I take no issue with gamers modeling German military units, I would find it disgusting if someone wanted to model a bunch of camp guards or an Einsatzgrupp. I also find it sickening when people model Waffen-SS units because they think they were "cool" but don't actually have any interest in learning about the history. I also have found it kind of sick when I've heard people talk about fielding Volkssturm militia or Hitlerjugend child soldiers, but those things are kind of sore subjects for me.

But my point is, in a historical context I see no problem in modeling and playing a WWII German army.

As said, I doing a 40k army with WWII iconography is kind of wack. This is from a combination of reasons. The first (which is a generalization, I admit) is that most of these armies are poorly researched, and are modeled like people think the Germans looked, but for the most part are nowhere close to accurate about anything, and when you actually talk to the person it's often apparent that their knowledge of the subject is woefully limited. It always seems like they did it because they just think it's "cool" or because "the Germans were l33t" but don't actually know anything about the subject - which again, is something I take issue with even in historical games. They are taking a serious subject and turning it more or less into a crude science fiction inside joke ("My Space Marines are actually German - LOL!") which I find annoying because it dilutes the subject matter and cheapens the whole thing.

I also think that separating the subject from its historical context in some ways is a lot more glorifying (even unintentionally) than model a historical unit. At least with historicals, you are modeling something that happened. When someone does Nazi's in Space, I feel like they are implying (intentionally or not) that they need Nazis in Space because there aren't enough Nazis in the real world.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to model and play a German army from WWII, then model and play an actual German army from WWII, and try to develop a little understanding of what you are doing. Learn something from it.

But don't make a Nazis in Space army because you think Waffen-SS camouflage, arm bands, and blood flags look good on Imperial Guard miniatures. Please.

Grignard wrote:Not to make presumptions, but I would guess that several people in this thread and the last have fairly "progressive" viewpoints, probably up to the point that you would make me look like Rush Limbaugh. Yet, when it comes to something that offends you, the response is exactly the same as the bible thumpers I went to school with. There are people who, not necessarily accusing anyone here, who will gripe about censorship, but will immediatley call for the removal of anything *they* precieve as racist or offensive.

If they have that right then I have every right to call it what it is.

Freedom of expression doesn't mean its okay to just do whatever, damn the consequences, see Fred Phelps for a perfect example of why.

There are people who, not necessarily accusing anyone here, who will gripe about censorship, but will immediatley call for the removal of anything *they* precieve as racist or offensive.

You weren't calling me out but I did PM GMM about his right to paint and display an army like that due to free speech, as well as my right to do the opposite and call him out on it. I think I've tried to say in the other thread and in this one that while I may not play against such an army, people should be able to paint it if they so please. But if they do, they should not beat around the bush because they did paint it. They should also accept whatever feedback and reactions they get from it*. Also note that people tend to paint things that they enjoy painting unless it's for commission or they are a masochist, which makes a statement.

*of course, this is the internet so people can easily claim "oh I did it for the laughs" but I'm not so sure someone who spent a couple dozen hours meticulously painting such things can claim it's just for the laughs.

For what it is worth, I really don't care one way or another about a fantasy army using historical themes. Run them out on a rail if you want. But I agree with Hordini that historicals is an entirely different matter. Not only that, but I find that trying to change the imagery or sugarcoat Russian or German miniatures is not only wrong, but imbecilic

stonefox wrote:

There are people who, not necessarily accusing anyone here, who will gripe about censorship, but will immediatley call for the removal of anything *they* precieve as racist or offensive.

You weren't calling me out but I did PM GMM about his right to paint and display an army like that due to free speech, as well as my right to do the opposite and call him out on it. I think I've tried to say in the other thread and in this one that while I may not play against such an army, people should be able to paint it if they so please. But if they do, they should not beat around the bush because they did paint it. Also note that people tend to paint things that they enjoy painting unless it's for commission or they are a masochist, which makes a statement.

Understood. I also think that one reason people use base imagery off the Nazi and Communist propaganda devices is that it is very powerful imagery. I think it is one reason that these sort of governments are so successful, that is, the emotional impact of the imagery. I think it is not necessarily a bad thing to explore *why* this is so, without advocating totalitarianism.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Now that the heat has died down, and hopefully cooler heads prevail, I have a curious question:

Why is it that Kriegmarines are OK, but the "other" WW2-themed army was run out of town on a rail?

Would someone care to share some insight?

----
edited to add link to the "other" army...

Primarily because this site is overrun with Miscreant Spayce Marienz (hurr!) apologists...

Blackheart666 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Now that the heat has died down, and hopefully cooler heads prevail, I have a curious question:

Why is it that Kriegmarines are OK, but the "other" WW2-themed army was run out of town on a rail?

Would someone care to share some insight?

----
edited to add link to the "other" army...

Primarily because this site is overrun with Miscreant Spayce Marienz (hurr!) apologists...

Wow I never thought someone could simultaneously derail a thread, insult the board regulars, AND get in a stereotyping insult to someone who chooses to play a certain type of miniature in a fantasy game. You however, have accomplished all three Blackheart

People do love their space marines after all.

Grignard wrote:

Blackheart666 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Now that the heat has died down, and hopefully cooler heads prevail, I have a curious question:

Why is it that Kriegmarines are OK, but the "other" WW2-themed army was run out of town on a rail?

Would someone care to share some insight?

----
edited to add link to the "other" army...

Primarily because this site is overrun with Miscreant Spayce Marienz (hurr!) apologists...

Wow I never thought someone could simultaneously derail a thread, insult the board regulars, AND get in a stereotyping insult to someone who chooses to play a certain type of miniature in a fantasy game. You however, have accomplished all three Blackheart

that wasn't a derail.. but I do appreciate your attempt at crediting me with a trifecta.

~space marines~

Hordini wrote:As said, I doing a 40k army with WWII iconography is kind of wack. This is from a combination of reasons. The first (which is a generalization, I admit) is that most of these armies are poorly researched, and are modeled like people think the Germans looked, but for the most part are nowhere close to accurate about anything, and when you actually talk to the person it's often apparent that their knowledge of the subject is woefully limited. It always seems like they did it because they just think it's "cool" or because "the Germans were l33t" but don't actually know anything about the subject - which again, is something I take issue with even in historical games. They are taking a serious subject and turning it more or less into a crude science fiction inside joke ("My Space Marines are actually German - LOL!") which I find annoying because it dilutes the subject matter and cheapens the whole thing.

I also think that separating the subject from its historical context in some ways is a lot more glorifying (even unintentionally) than model a historical unit. At least with historicals, you are modeling something that happened. When someone does Nazi's in Space, I feel like they are implying (intentionally or not) that they need Nazis in Space because there aren't enough Nazis in the real world.

I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to model and play a German army from WWII, then model and play an actual German army from WWII, and try to develop a little understanding of what you are doing. Learn something from it.

But don't make a Nazis in Space army because you think Waffen-SS camouflage, arm bands, and blood flags look good on Imperial Guard miniatures. Please.

This is the best reason to refrain from doing any historical army in 40k. If you want the style make up your own icons at least so it doesn't look like the 20th century somehow made it all the way through 38,000 years of history. "Based on" is better than "is" in sci fi.

I dunno. I sit in both camps here.


On the one hand, I see no real problem with a player wanting to add a little historical flavor to 40k. People base 40k vehicles off of 1/48 WWII kits all the time. Usually, it's some sort of German (read: Nazi) vehicle. AFV or otherwise. Also, as was mentioned earlier, Valhallans (WWII Russia) which are clearly modeled after the Stalinist regime. A regime well known for its brutality, cruelty, and mass murder. They had death camps, too. No ovens but, rather, freezers (Siberian labor camps). Praetorian Guard are modeled after the "Darkest Africa" era British. If anyone knows about South Africa back in the day, where a soldier wore a Pith Helmet and an overcoat with shiny brass buttons, they will know that the Brits weren't exactly nice to the indiginous peoples, to put it mildly. Or the Ogre Kingdoms, which are of obvious asiatic origins. This 'flavor' could easily be construed as Japanese, who were BRUTAL to the early war Chinese as well as US, British, and Australian POWs. As brutal, if not more so, than the Nazis. Believe it. researhc the Japanese atrocites in WWII.
All those arguements aside, I believe in giving credit where credit is due. The poster painted a nice-looking army. His painting skill is far and away better than the average 40k player. The ones that paint, that is. Subject matter aside, the OP did some extremely nice paint jobs and should maybe receive kudos for that.


On the other hand...
His army theme and paint scheme probably is paying homage to Neo-Nazi ideals, and I find that dispicable, distasteful, immature, and downright disrespectful, if that is the case (which it stongly seems to be). Fine. You have the right to believe what you want to believe. The OP has every right to think like a knuckle-dragging primate that knows and thrives on hatefully motivated ideology. What he does not have a right to do is thrust that upon others with complete disregard for social boundaries.
He has no idea what kind of people the community of DakkaDakka.com is made up of. Nor does he care. This is the internet where there are rarely reprocussions or consequences for your words or virtual actions. This is the immature, disrespectful bit. Getting flamed here is about the worst fallout he will get for being an asspickle racist (again, if that is truly his motivation with that army).


I absolutely love anything WWII-related. I love documentaries (Ken Burns' "The War..." omg), movies (Saving Pvt. Ryan, The Longest Day), etc. Most of all, though, I love period gaming in WWII. When I play WWII historical games, I prefer to play as Germans. I love the german war engine. The Whermacht was downright mean. The navy and Lufftwaffe, too. The ground vehicles, from the humble Schwimmwagon to the mighty King Tiger, to the MG-42, Panzerfaust, and STG-44 (1st ever Assault rifle), all the way to the Me-262 (1st jet-powered plane ever). The German war engine pioneered sooooooo many things mankind use today. When I play WWII hinstoricals, I will use SS troops without hesitation. Especially if the scenario calls for them. They were crack eliete troops and had roles to play in WWII (and the gaming of) that were not only made up of mass murder and anti-semitism. They acted on these roles exceptionally well, too.
I paint all my WWII vehicles with appropriate period markings with actual photographs used as reference material. If the tank squadron I am painting had red arial recognition flags with a swastika on a white circle draped over the engine decks, then that's what I will model on the tanks.

The Germans were not alone in their atrocities, either. the Russians were just as ruthless. Post-war, they were as ruthless to their own people. Also, let's not forget about the Japanese. Nanking. The Battan Death March. Every bit is atrocious as the Nazis. It is argued that BOTH sides of the war committed atrocities. Every country bombed cities with extreme predjudice. Hiroshima? Nagasaki?

None of this means that I am a nazi sympathizer nor do I even think about the atrocities anyone committed against humanity while I am playing a WWII game. The same could easily be said for WWII-themed 40k armies. Of course, this is merely my opinion and I do not expect it to be a common opinion. I would play against the OP's army without hesitation. I would even compliment his work. However, the minute he started spouting any neo-Nazi or hate -driven rhetoric, I would pack up my stuff, lay into him, and tell him what an ass he was.



Ghidorah
Who has zero tolerance for racism.

I have to agree with HF's first post. Quasi-Nazi imagery (principally the cross and the colours red, white and black) is present in both armies.

There seems no reason why one army is beyond the pale and the other is within, except that it is more complete and better done.

Gentleman,
I fail to understand the reactions to either thread.
We are simply talking about painting toy soldiers right?

Those of you opposed to the depictions on either army:
What are your reactions to those who paint FLAMES OF WAR Nazi miniatures?

How about those players who happen to CHOOSE to play in a fantasy game where they are the Nazi Faction? Isn't that... in a sense, fantasizing you are a Nazi?

In your opinion, at what point does the emotional reactions evoked and graphic statements depicted in a medium of art facilitate your ability to discern what the true intentions of the artist are?

What, in your eyes, is discernible art and what is agenda oriented political propaganda?

Do you know any one that fought in WW2 or for that matter are you related to anyone that was held in a detention camp for being Jewish or NON-Aryan?