Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Norade, you keep asking for numbers that don't exist on BOTH sides. Those sheilds (directed at one point as they are) would be more than enough to stave of the attacks from the ships. Yes, it is vulnerable to torpedoes, but you underestimate the amount of dedicated gun crews made for the defense of such places. (not to mention fighters)

Distubance in the Force = Disturbance in the Warp? How can you not say that the two are somehow not connected. As I recall, the warp used to be benign and worked a lot like an interstellar highway, with the fall of eldar it became corrupted and dangerous.

I know! Some of these people! You would think that their blind as bats!

?

Except that they do exists for Star Wars both from fan calculations based on video evidence and scenes from books that can be analyzed. We also have source books with hard numbers in them as of the RoTS: ICS. 40k has calculations derived from its books as well, but I am not well versed in them. However to say that the numbers don't exists shows a deep lack of knowledge.

As for point shields versus full hull shields you leave more exposed that way and stray shots past a point shield can end a fight. As well can point defense on an IoM vessel track at 90% of the speed of light? Also when do they normally face ships as small as GE fighters and munitions as small as a proton torpedo or concussion missile?

You can draw similarities between the force and the warp, but you can not prove that they are the same. So that would need to be set and agreed upon for each versus debate. Obviously if there is no warp in the GE then we get a situation where IoM ships are stuck at sub-light speeds due to not being able to warp.

On a related note it would seem that GE humans would have about as much warp signature as the Tau given the extreme rarity of Jedi and Sith. That would help protect them from the initial ravages of the warp.

Oh for @"£$ sake! Analyzed from movies?!? Are you serious? I would understand if someone IN THE MOVIE talked about thier tech, but people watching it? No. N...O.

Also, fighters moving 90% the speed of light would have NO WAY of accurate firing or bombing. Sure they could shoot, but not accurately aiming for any targets. And the gunners wouldn't NEED to aim. They just throw a lot of flakk out and will probably hit SUMFINK!

(Imperial Capital ships are renowned for having EXTREMELY lucky machine spirits).

Also, entirely unfair to just dismiss the warp and say IoM move at only sub-light speeds. That would be like me saying hyperdrive can't be used in 40k universe. Also, while hyperspace requires certain routes and lanes, in the Star Wars Universe warp travel would not be so restriced and could possibly attack planets at whim (without taking routes).

Finnally, there aren't many Jedi or Sith, but there are a lot of potoentials. And even the average human (both StarWarz and Imperium) registers in the warp.

Oh for @"£$ sake! Analyzed from movies?!? Are you serious? I would understand if someone IN THE MOVIE talked about their tech, but people watching it? No. N...O.

If you're not willing to accept on screen evidence for firepower, accuracy, and numbers you are a fool. To deny such evidence shows an unwillingness to have an even fight. Besides why would you value dialogue over actual observed use of technology?

Also, fighters moving 90% the speed of light would have NO WAY of accurate firing or bombing. Sure they could shoot, but not accurately aiming for any targets. And the gunners wouldn't NEED to aim. They just throw a lot of flakk out and will probably hit SUMFINK!

(Imperial Capital ships are renowned for having EXTREMELY lucky machine spirits).

Try targeting computers, if the IoM doesn't use ECM then they will have a rather easy time hitting. Also just saying flak and mis-spelling words doesn't equal kills they need to defeat armor and their is no reason to think that even a wall of flak will stop all missiles and laser fire and as you have said the shields are focused to an area leaving gaps where every hit will pile on a little more damage.

Also luck has nothing to do with this, either they have good targeting systems or they have poor ones. Luck can't be factored into a debate about technology anymore than it can be factored into an army list built on this site. We plan around averages, not luck or other factors.

Also, entirely unfair to just dismiss the warp and say IoM move at only sub-light speeds. That would be like me saying hyperdrive can't be used in 40k universe. Also, while hyperspace requires certain routes and lanes, in the Star Wars Universe warp travel would not be so restriced and could possibly attack planets at whim (without taking routes).

I posited that as one possible scenario to show how easy it is to shift the balance to one side. However we aren't talking about fair, we're talking about two universes and there is no evidence that their is a Warp in the GE. Thus you must find a counter or prove that they do have a warp, saying Force = Warp will not work. As well simply saying that Hyperdrive won't work when it isn't dependent on a form of magic t run it is idiotic at best and dishonest at worst.

As for hyperspace lanes, yes they're used to cut down on calculations of jump time as well as to allow for increased speeds as they need to worry less about obstacles in their path, but they aren't as restrictive as you think. Any clear path between systems and obstacles is a hyper route.

Finally, there aren't many Jedi or Sith, but there are a lot of potoentials. And even the average human (both StarWarz and Imperium) registers in the warp.

True, but they will need to exert more effort to break through to a culture that has a lower warp signature and doesn't worship them to consciously let them in. We also have no evidence of the warp working through a fully shielded vessel with no breaks in coverage. They still need to transfer energy through the shield and I'm unsure they can do that. We also don't know that the warp can touch a vessel hyperspace which is not at all warp based. We also don't know how a Gellar filed works so it could be possible that the GE has a device that can be re-purposed for that job, but for this scenario I will say they must go without.

Hmm. According to this the acclamator transport's turbolasers put out about 200 gigatons.

Seems like that'd scale to around a teraton or two for a Star Destroyer turbolaser.

Yeah, that is about accepted in the versus community right now. Though I still need to see numbers for lances and missiles from the IoM to really compare.

Problem is, I don't think there are any numbers.

Canon in 40k is "maybe it is, maybe it isn't... OoOoOoOoh mysterious..."

Eh? Double post?

That is a problem because they vary so much.

Also, there is NO WAY luke was travelling at 90% light speed when he was killing the Death Star, that would mean he would have gone down the chute in an eyeblink, and not even had time to register the fact that he needed to full out of the tunnel or even press the trigger (let alone aim). It seems more likely that (even IF they can move that fast) this is more of a desperate burst of speed, where almost all the energy is used up in go, hardly a viable combat speed.

Also, what I was saying is that you can't calculate how many megatons of power you get from a single star destroyer shot by simply watching the movie. (If LucasArts posted that in a FAQ sheet then mabye).

Also, apart from the Super Star Destroyer, the Empire has nothing on the Imperium Battleships. Nothing to sheer size. (IoM Battleships are far more common than Super Star Destroyers).

Also, I only mentioned the amazing luck of the IoM's battleships becuase their missiles always seem to be hit exactly the right point, thier laser are unneringly accurate at EXACTLY the right time. That could be called amazingly accurate, or just having the best damn ship in the OONIVERSE!

Emperors Faithful wrote:That is a problem because they vary so much.

They do, however people who have the books should post descriptions of lance strikes and cyclonic torpedoes in great detail.

Also, there is NO WAY luke was travelling at 90% light speed when he was killing the Death Star, that would mean he would have gone down the chute in an eyeblink, and not even had time to register the fact that he needed to full out of the tunnel or even press the trigger (let alone aim). It seems more likely that (even IF they can move that fast) this is more of a desperate burst of speed, where almost all the energy is used up in go, hardly a viable combat speed.

First ff flying through a trench that fast seems like it would be a bad idea even if it wasn't blanketed in ECM. This was why the targeting computers were having such a hard time with the shot and Luke needed to use the force to make the shot. As far as them moving that fast it is written in the New Jedi Order series that they can and not contradicted by anything so they can, and it takes less fuel to accelerate to 90% of light than to go to hyperspace so it isn't even a huge fuel drain. Also it isn't as if they need to burn engines after that unless you think that spaceships constantly burn their engines in space...

As well you're being very ignorant in your assumptions in the matter and make statements with no backing, so please educate yourself before posting unfounded supposition. Right now it seems as if you're arguing for what you want to see rather than what is actually there.

Also, what I was saying is that you can't calculate how many megatons of power you get from a single star destroyer shot by simply watching the movie. (If LucasArts posted that in a FAQ sheet then maybe).

For those with knowledge you certainly can, the energy to destroy and asteroid of a given size and composition with a given weapon is easy to determine by watching the movies and doing some simply physics based math. I suggest you read the asteroid calculation page to see exactly how this is done, before saying that it can't be.

Also, apart from the Super Star Destroyer, the Empire has nothing on the Imperium Battleships. Nothing to sheer size. (IoM Battleships are far more common than Super Star Destroyers).

Yes they have more size, but from the few calculations I have seen in the past (I'm having trouble digging through 40k calculations to find them again) it seems that for their size a Battle Barge has only the same power as an ISD.

Also, I only mentioned the amazing luck of the IoM's battleships becuase their missiles always seem to be hit exactly the right point, thier laser are unneringly accurate at EXACTLY the right time. That could be called amazingly accurate, or just having the best damn ship in the OONIVERSE!

You could say that, however the 40k books have many scenes of hyperbole in them, such as Marine chapter masters slicing through mountains. I will provide more examples as I find them, but that is the one that sticks out in my mind. It could be that they're exaggerated, they also have a massive case of hero ships and character shielding in 40k and whether it is the Emperor's luck, writers fiat, or dumb luck it can't be brought into a debate. Now if it turns out that it ism simply good aim and you're describing it as luck with your poorly articulated wordings I will retract my statements.

The figures required are range, rate of fire and destructive capability against an established target. As the shields of both universes may be vastly different, the only useful information pertaining to capability is going to be planetary strikes.

What effect do various weapons have against planets and other bodies like asteroids?

Any other comparison is silly as the biggest SW ship may not be able to get through the shields of the smallest 40K ship or vice versa.

@Norade: Do you realise how fast the speed of light is? There is no possible way that Luke was going 90% the speed of light when he:
1) Spotted the rench
2) Went in the trench
3) Got shot at for a while
4) Aimed
5) Stoped aiming
6) Listened to Obi-Wan
7) Got saved by Han
8) Shot the torpedoes
9) Got the hell out of dodge.
At 90% of the speed of light, Luke would not have even had time to register the EXISTENCE of the tunnel below him. I'm not saying they can't, but they most certainly can[edit}N'T do it AND try to shoot the enemy with any accuracy.

Cadbren, you are right we do usually only establish power from known and quantifiable events to keep things as easy as possible. If you go back a page or two I posted links to calculations about Imperial-class Star Destroyers vaporizing asteroids which shows how the math was derived.

As for a universe that can't touch another one that is what Star Wars vs Star Trek became. Trek was so outmatched that a few ships could destroy them in short order without losses. It is silly to debate once that is known, but along the way it can be fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Emperor, I never said he was, I suggest reading my post again because I say that would be a terrible idea due to ECM and tight spaces. I agree that he wasn't going that fast in that scene, however we know from the books that X-Wings can achieve those speeds and they are used in combat, you not liking that fact doesn't make it any less true. The enemy being faced at the time, the Vong, didn't uses the same level of ECM, if any at all, as the DS was putting out though. However seeing as I know nothing of ECM in 40k and neither do you by the look of things, we can't say for sure if it would work, but it is worth noting anyway.

After consideration, I think I'd actually put the Empire as more likely to win, against the Imperium.

Not because of differences in space capabilities (as that's really sketchy as hell) so much as the differences in industry. The Imperium really controls less of the galaxy than the orks do, so they're kind of limited in that regard. Meanwhile, the Empire has some impressive city-planets, they seem to have a much better network of resources. The key then is the Empire's internal unity, but I think that with the Imperium acting the way it does, most of the Empire's subjects wouldn't have much to gain by defecting. (A third possible scenario would be that the Empire is overthrown by a sort of rebellion, while the Imperium is destroyed by the new Republic that follows. Probably not as likely as the Empire mainting control, but it's not out of the question.)

In a universe v universe battle in which the universes were united, the Emperor and Chaos joining forces - with the necrons, orks, and tyranids along for the ride - would be enough to destroy Episode 4 level Star Wars by a fair margin. Things such as omniscience, time travel, the ability to ignore the laws of physics, necron-level technology, and quintillions of troops make the 40k universe too powerful if united. (If they were united against the Star Wars galaxy at a different period I don't know. I'm not aware of any period that could take on the universe of 40k, but I'm not an expert on the Expanded Universe.)

In a free for all, I think the winner would either be The Emperor of Man reborn, Chaos, the necrons or possibly the Empire. I really have a hard time believing that Palpatine would be able to resist the corruption of Chaos, unless the Dark Side somehow overrides a possible claim (not necessarily probable, as corruption from both seems to entail many of the same things, and they seem to have similar goals). The reborn Emperor could pretty much reenact Star Wars in the formation of a rebellion, that's very speculative. The Empire's reliance on technology could make them The Dragon's bitch, but that's also very speculative, as we don't know much about him. Another possible outcome is that freebootin' Mandalorkians are made of awesome and win.

Orks control more galaxy than Imperium?!? HERESY!!! Infesting is not the same as control.

A more likely scenario than Empire winning is Chuck Norris rising from his thousand-year-old slumber and anihilating all with his awesome aura.

Lets look at it this way. There are 3 modes for combat. 1 is Space Battles (only ships), 2 is ranged weapons (both ground conflicts and boarding actions) and 3 is close combat (both ground and boarding actions).
No single aspect can excel entirely on it's own. (Blowing planets up from space is not going to forge an Empire that sucessfully).

1) Naval Battles : Still undecided.
2) Ranged Combat : Again, not quite clear, bot sides claiming victory.
3) Close Combat : Undeniably in favour of 40k.

We should resolve points 1 & 2.

The production means that even with parity and 1:1 loses that the GE wins. They can replace lost vessels quicker and many classes of ships are considered to be throw away items.

In ranged combat it's bolters and lasguns vs. blasters and ion guns and they each carry the same punch, but the delivery is different. The question is how they effect guard and space marines and how well stormtroopers and Imperial tanks hold up versus the IoM.

Stormies, based on the evidence shown in the movies will surviving bolter and lasgun rounds, but will likely be knocked unconscious for a time due to the impact. The Imperial army is a bit of an unknown, but we know that Imperial tanks are going to be much faster than the Imperiums and most have shields and that has to play a factor in the big picture on the ground.

In close, I would agree with you that 40k is better, but Star Wars does have counters, just not in large numbers. Though the have droids far above humans in strength and skill in specialized duelist droids as well as droids based off famous assassin droids.

StormTroopers would survive lasguns yes (well, mabye not on full auto), yet Boltguns tear through WALLS and would shred Storm Trooper armour. Pleez don't deny this ONE little thing (cue googly eyes)...pleez?

I'm not aware of any Imperial tanks at any large rate, but they probably would have shields (why didn't AT-AT, AT-ST's have shields?), but the Leman Russ's (and baneblades) would be far more resilient.

Also, why do you think the production is so great for GE?

Norade wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:That is a problem because they vary so much.

They do, however people who have the books should post descriptions of lance strikes and cyclonic torpedoes in great detail.

Lances are designed to pierce a ship's shields, and go through the ship. It's basically one big beam of "FREEM". Cyclonic Torpedoes are meant to more or less obliterate an enemy ship in a salvo, or wipe out all life on a planet with constant, sustained salvos. Any Space Marine or Inquisitorial warships large enough are almost guaranteed to be equipped with these. Most of the heavier Imperial Navy warships are equipped with them as well. Think of Cyclonic Torpedoes as the Deff' Star laser in missile form (And minus the destroying the planet part - these just turn it into a barren, lifeless rock). And no, Abbadon the Despoiler is not part of the Imperium. He was Captain of the Luna Wolves, and like the rest of his Legion, turned to Chaos during the great Heresy. He now leads the Black Legion and the armies of Chaos in the 13th Black Crusade. And yes, he does have a planet-blower-upper-Lance on his ship as was mentioned. If you can find the artist rendition of it in action from the 4th ed Chaos Codex, it's a beauty of a picture.

Also, there is NO WAY luke was travelling at 90% light speed when he was killing the Death Star, that would mean he would have gone down the chute in an eyeblink, and not even had time to register the fact that he needed to full out of the tunnel or even press the trigger (let alone aim). It seems more likely that (even IF they can move that fast) this is more of a desperate burst of speed, where almost all the energy is used up in go, hardly a viable combat speed.

First ff flying through a trench that fast seems like it would be a bad idea even if it wasn't blanketed in ECM. This was why the targeting computers were having such a hard time with the shot and Luke needed to use the force to make the shot. As far as them moving that fast it is written in the New Jedi Order series that they can and not contradicted by anything so they can, and it takes less fuel to accelerate to 90% of light than to go to hyperspace so it isn't even a huge fuel drain. Also it isn't as if they need to burn engines after that unless you think that spaceships constantly burn their engines in space...

As well you're being very ignorant in your assumptions in the matter and make statements with no backing, so please educate yourself before posting unfounded supposition. Right now it seems as if you're arguing for what you want to see rather than what is actually there.

Woah woah. Before you start calling him ignorant, he's got a valid point in that it's highly doubtful (impossible even) that a fighter could've flown down a trench that full of obstacles, crossfire, and enemy craft, and not just crashed right into something. Force or no, the ship can only handle so well in it's maneuvers. If you were flying an old, outdated ship at 90% the speed of light down a trench that was maybe a few hundred metres wide and filled with towers, gun emplacements, pipes, and random blocks that don't do anything other than get in your way, I'm pretty sure you'd be smashing into something as you quickly moved to avoid hitting something else. Whatever source said that they werre flying as fast was likely just trying to glorify things a bit more. Yes those fighters are capable of travelling at the speed of light. But no, they did not fly anywhere near that fast in the trench, or they would've all crashed into various things within the first 100Km or so.

Also, what I was saying is that you can't calculate how many megatons of power you get from a single star destroyer shot by simply watching the movie. (If LucasArts posted that in a FAQ sheet then maybe).

For those with knowledge you certainly can, the energy to destroy and asteroid of a given size and composition with a given weapon is easy to determine by watching the movies and doing some simply physics based math. I suggest you read the asteroid calculation page to see exactly how this is done, before saying that it can't be.

Asteroids always explode in Sci Fi movies. No matter what they're shot with. That's just the general rule. It's like Exploding Barrels in video games. If there're no exploding barrels, it's not a worthwhile game. It's just the way the world works.

Also, apart from the Super Star Destroyer, the Empire has nothing on the Imperium Battleships. Nothing to sheer size. (IoM Battleships are far more common than Super Star Destroyers).

Yes they have more size, but from the few calculations I have seen in the past (I'm having trouble digging through 40k calculations to find them again) it seems that for their size a Battle Barge has only the same power as an ISD.

That's because a Battle Barge is a Space Marine vessel equipped for drop-podding Marines and deploying Thunderhawks. It's hardly a naval combat vessel. It's weapons are mostly designed for defense of the ship, and to support the Marines as they make Planetfall. Imperial Navy ships are all about firepower, as they have dedicated transport ships. From what I've seen of ISD's in the movies and a few of the games, they lack a quantity of guns, instead focusing on a few powerful ones. The Imperium on the other hand... Well... Basically, the Imperium loves to make everything excessive. They've gone for both numbers and power at the expense of some speed. If they can pile it on, they will. for the most part, Imperial ships are little more than powerful weapon stations encased in a hull. If you've never seen a picture or video of an Imperial ship engaging an enemy, it's generally little more than a solid wall of battery fire. Imperial Ships don't mount a tonne of forward firing weapons. Most of them are on the sides of the ships. It seems at first like a disadvantage, but the thing is, they can also turn on the spot thanks to the fact that most of them are equipped with turning engines as well. It gives them sort of a "Turning Forklift" effect. From what I've seen of ISDs, they have to make an arc turn. This would leave them right open to be raked along their flanks as they were making a turn.

Also, I only mentioned the amazing luck of the IoM's battleships becuase their missiles always seem to be hit exactly the right point, thier laser are unneringly accurate at EXACTLY the right time. That could be called amazingly accurate, or just having the best damn ship in the OONIVERSE!

You could say that, however the 40k books have many scenes of hyperbole in them, such as Marine chapter masters slicing through mountains. I will provide more examples as I find them, but that is the one that sticks out in my mind. It could be that they're exaggerated, they also have a massive case of hero ships and character shielding in 40k and whether it is the Emperor's luck, writers fiat, or dumb luck it can't be brought into a debate. Now if it turns out that it ism simply good aim and you're describing it as luck with your poorly articulated wordings I will retract my statements.

Things like that are often cases of folklore within the 40K background, and usually concern the Primarch, not necessarily the current chapter master of 10,000 years later. Most Space Marine Primarchs grew up on Feral Human Worlds, having been scattered by an unknown force throughout the galaxy. These worlds were once colonies of humanity but had been long since forgotten and they remained so until the Great Crusade, in which the Emperor reclaimed the galaxy. Being that the Primarchs were superhuman in every sense from the moment they were born, they naturally rose to positions of power and Legend. Some were even worshipped as gods by their primitive kinsmen. It's no suprise then, that the Space Wolves Chapter, for example, tell tales among themselves of the great feats of their Primarch, Leman Russ. Things like how Russ's warcry could shake the snow from mountain peaks the world over. How, with his strength, each day he could move the mountains into whatever arrangement he wished. Obviously these are just folk tales from a Space Marine Chapter rooted in Nordic Cultures, but they serve as a good example as to how intentional exaggeration of a scenario is common in 40K writings. Undoubtedly, Russ did let out his share of Warcries in his lifetime, but perhaps it only shook the snow from one mountain. And perhaps only because that mountain was on the very verge of Avalanche anyway. The stories are written with a dab of folklore in them to sort of make the reader feel present in the story, instead of leaving them with just text on paper.

As for the Navy ships, when you consider the billions, even trillions, (And likely even more than that, size and population of the Imperium considered) of ships the Imperium is fielding at any time, the number of lucky shots that are made on a daily basis doesn't seem so miraculous. It's like pool - If you play pool for 2 weeks, and you get 1 or 2 impossibly lucky fluke shots every second game you play, that seems like a pretty good number of flukes in the span of 2 weeks. But fast forward twenty years. Let's say you're still avidly playing pool. You're still averaging 1 or 2 fluke shots every second or third game. But total up the number or times you've played the game and not gotten any fluke shots, and suddenly your number of flukes to your number of non-flukes seems pretty insignifigant.

Essentially, it's a simple matter of ratios. Lucky shots to total "daily" naval engagements around the Imperium. Good luck finding any numbers for that. The Cadian Gate alone sees several hundred engagements per 24h segment

As for Storm Troopers surviving Bolters... put it this way... If they're killed by a lasgun/blaster in the movies, then a Bolter, which doubles as an anti LAV weapon, will explode them. Bolters are essentially small-scale missile launchers with fully auto, semi auto, and single round settings. A bolter round is designed as such:

Round is fired. Bolter Rounds make use of a gas-powered self-propulsion system in the rear of the shell. This means that the round will not lose velocity after leaving the barrel, and infact will actually start gaining speed for a short time after a few dozen feet.

Round impacts target. Bolter rounds are not designed to explode on impact. When it hits the target, it acts like a slug, punching through an enemy soldier's armour. Assuming the round does not simply pass clean through it's target, it becomes lodged in the opponent's body, wherein it stops moving and detonates

Round stops moving, detonates. The Bolter round is designed to explode only after it stops moving. To a living organism, this is a horrible, and not always immediate, way to die. The round explodes inside the enemy's body, shredding their bones and internal organs with shrapnel. If a bolter is equipped with Frag rounds, then additional Frag-Tiles coating the nose of the shell all but liquefy the target's body. In an LAV (Light Armoured Vehicle) a Bolter round can be used as a deadly fragmentation device, and a bolter shot through a closed top-hatch, window slit, or rear panel/deployment ramp has proven to be brutally effective in the absence of a frag grenade or a missile launcher for dispatching crew and/or troop cargo.


Armour: IG/Stormtroopers are on Parity. But short of a tank, there's little in the Star Wars setting that could face up to a Space Marine. They've multiples of several organs. They spit acid. They can safely eat and digest -anything-. Literally. Anything. They have a thick carapace under their skin that acts as an interface and makes their power armour a living extension of their bodies. Their Power Armour itself is practically Ceramic, Rockcrete (Like Concrete on steroids), various layers of metallic and non-metallic plating, reinforced synthetic muscles, and a full hydraulic skeleton contained within the armour. And that's noting next to Terminator Armour, which IS akin to a tank. The GE could easily go toe to toe with the Imperial Guard and Navy, but facing a Marine Chapter, or even one company from that Chapter, they're probably better off just leaving well enough alone. Especially if we're talking about the Black Templars

That is another factor not being considered, boarding actions. They happen in Star Wars about as often as they happen in the real world, as in they usually resolve with the bigger ship seizing whatever they are looking for. In 40K boarding actions are like old school pirates vs. EITC or GB vs. the world, as in swords and pistols carry the day.

A battle barge holds the capability to deploy over 300 Space Marines vs their opponent. 100 Marines could easily handle the crews of one ISD, given the standard marine force multiplier of tight spaces, terrifying speed, and close combat power. While this is just the Space Marines alone, it is worth considering that a battlebarges greatest offensive weapon is its passengers.

That was an example to the GE in industrial capacity, if they can do it in decade (From prototype to finshed design with delays) in secret for the first DS, and in under a year for what was finished on the second DS, think of what they can do in public on a larger scale? As well they could have been kept secret the way our government keeps things secret to hide the prohect from enemies. As for routing things out the ISB, COMPNOR, and the like are the GE's equivalent and they work very well, in fact they likely played a big part in keeping the projects secret.

I understand that it demonstrates how long it took to make in secret but do we have a comparison to how long it would take to build not in secret but on a production line. Without that information then the speed at which they made it at secret could be months slower than if in the open and then the speed of secret is no longer that impressive.

The speed of production would still be the same but it would show that building it in secret would take a heavy toll on time therefore showing that the Empire doesn't have that good of an industry.

Read most of the thread. Here's my angle.

It all comes down to technological superiority. In general, Imperium technology is shoddy, unreliable, and more importantly, enginseers and tech priests don't actually know how a lot of their "thinking engines" were built and can barely manage to service the things. Additionally, that said, most technology is hidden from the public and kept secret.

In the Star Wars universe, an eight year old built a droid from scratch.

I vote Star Wars for obvious technological superiority.

I think the Emperor at eight would have been more impressive.

@Marshall2Crusaders: Thank you for pointing that out, mate. I did try to make that point but obviously not with enough clarity.

@Frosty Hardtop: It would certainly not be the first time the Imperium has bested a technologically-superior foe thorugh sheer grit.

@metallifan: Congrats, I dp believe that is the most structured, stimulated response that I have heard on this thread. Even Norade should be pleased.

I doubt a stormtrooper could survive a bolter.

Bolters are armor piercing shells. Which explode inside their target.

(Also, lolEwokArrows. )

I followed this thread for quite a while now and do not want to really get involved, I just wanted to say two things about these Star Wars numbers and data that is thrown around here.


1)

There is a calculation about the power of ISD turbo lasers according to the fact that they totally evaporate asteroids in ESB.

Am I the only one here thinking that those asteroids evaporate because George Lucas and his team didn't have the tech (how ironic) to make the destruction look more realistic? Something going PEW and then being not there any more is quite easy, asteroid parts exploding, flying in different directions, interacting/colliding with each other was not so easy in the old days.

Therefore, I find those calculations to prove the firepower of ISDs highly debatable.


2)

Someone linked to a site where people had this STAR WARS VS STAR TREK comparison. Okay, it was impressive, so high numbers on the Star Wars side!

Now, just one thing. There was a mention of Boba Fetts Slave I firing kiloton blasts at 480rpm. That means...I can't emphasise this enough. This means hiroshima scale destruction AND MORE in every second of shooting!

And his funny sonic charges do even higher damage, according to those charts. Boy, I have to keep my Capslock away, although it is tempting.

In the movie sequence (and those are, it seems, are very important for this stuff to star wars fans) where Slave I is after Obi-Wan in one of the newer movies, hunting it with sonic charges and blasters and whatnot - does it fething look like those blasts were 1,000,000 times as big as Hiroshima bomb explosion?* NO! NO WAY! If every little bomb of Slave I had this firepower, the whole fething asteroid field they were flying through would have been blasted away in all directions and those puny little ships, slave I and obi-wans space scooter would have been flung away like toys, because Boba Fett was apparently firing megaton blasts that detonated a few hundred meters away from his ship.

There are more cases of contradictory evidence. Reactors of big starships are supposed to be in the tera-giga-whatnot scale. In the movies, when they explode, there is just a little "Pop" compared to what should happen when one of these reactors is destroyed and the energy (and the munition of all the gigaton weapons) is set free.

The whole space area and a few near planets would be engulfed in the explosion.


My final statement is: Star Wars numbers and Star Wars movies are VERY inconsistent, therefore I personally politely refuse to accept any "facts" posted here about Star Wars technology and firepower as true and real.


(I'm not on the side of 40k here. I'm on no side. It's just that Star Wars and those "OMG TERAGIGAPOWATON" numbers get the engineer in me steamed up.)

Witzkatz out.

* Hiroshima bomb: 13 kilotons
seismic charge mines: 12.000.000 kilotons

I completely agree with Wizkatz, considering each universe is a work of fiction then there is probably going to be some incosistoncies where they have budget cut or different authors have made different comments.

Oh yea, that was awesome Wizkats, thanks for the information!

Thanks for the support. I edited the post a few times to get some quickly written numbers correct. I have to emphasise this again, Boba Fetts sonic/seismic charge stuff is supposed to be like a million hiroshima bombs. That guy could blow up whole planets with his little space scooter. Why bother headhunting on foot? Find out what city your target is in, hit the fire button once and back to the contractor.

(This is sarcasm. Therefore nobody needs to come up with "But he doesn't do it because that would interfere with imperial law too much and the consequences, the consequences!" stuff.)

In my opinion, Star Wars has some nice movies, even nice books, but the power level described in some of these...these...don't know "background books" that are quoted here...they just don't fit. For me, they destroy the credibility of the universe, especially when looked at how stuff is described in stories and seen in movies.

Witzkatz wrote:There is a calculation about the power of ISD turbo lasers according to the fact that they totally evaporate asteroids in ESB.

Am I the only one here thinking that those asteroids evaporate because George Lucas and his team didn't have the tech (how ironic) to make the destruction look more realistic? Something going PEW and then being not there any more is quite easy, asteroid parts exploding, flying in different directions, interacting/colliding with each other was not so easy in the old days.

Therefore, I find those calculations to prove the firepower of ISDs highly debatable.

That isn't how things work, you can't say that if they had more budget things would have been X or Y, you have to use what is on screen for this debate as outlined in LucasArts official canon policy. Just because you don't feel something is realistic doesn't mean that is not how it happened. As well we have other sources, namely the oft mentioned Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross Sections that state the reactor output of a troop transport at 2 x10e23 watts, that is more than the entire United States used in 1995 (they used 9.53 × 10e19 Joules over the course of a year less than one shot from an Acclaators heavy guns!)

2)

Someone linked to a site where people had this STAR WARS VS STAR TREK comparison. Okay, it was impressive, so high numbers on the Star Wars side!

Now, just one thing. There was a mention of Boba Fetts Slave I firing kiloton blasts at 480rpm. That means...I can't emphasise this enough. This means hiroshima scale destruction AND MORE in every second of shooting!

And his funny sonic charges do even higher damage, according to those charts. Boy, I have to keep my Capslock away, although it is tempting.

In the movie sequence (and those are, it seems, are very important for this stuff to star wars fans) where Slave I is after Obi-Wan in one of the newer movies, hunting it with sonic charges and blasters and whatnot - does it fething look like those blasts were 1,000,000 times as big as Hiroshima bomb explosion?* NO! NO WAY! If every little bomb of Slave I had this firepower, the whole fething asteroid field they were flying through would have been blasted away in all directions and those puny little ships, slave I and obi-wans space scooter would have been flung away like toys, because Boba Fett was apparently firing megaton blasts that detonated a few hundred meters away from his ship.

There are more cases of contradictory evidence. Reactors of big starships are supposed to be in the tera-giga-whatnot scale. In the movies, when they explode, there is just a little "Pop" compared to what should happen when one of these reactors is destroyed and the energy (and the munition of all the gigaton weapons) is set free.

The whole space area and a few near planets would be engulfed in the explosion.

So this comes down to you saying that you're unwilling to believe the numbers because they're too high for you to understand and your expectation that a reactor will always explode when breached. First off some asteroids release as much energy as that and they don't 'engulf the planet' though they do cause climate change on a wide scale when they hit the earth. You also have the expectation that a teraton is a huge amount on the grand scale when it really isn't, if you think one TT will clear an asteroid field what do you think a neutron star or a super nova could do? They contain far more energy and can't even destroy everything in a solar system.

I bet you're they type to think that a reactor in a nuclear sub will make a mushroom cloud if the ship is hit by a torpedo... Please educate yourself and quit arguing that the numbers just don't 'feel' right and do some research on the subject instead of just whining that they don't look right without having anything besides your say so to back yourself up.

My final statement is: Star Wars numbers and Star Wars movies are VERY inconsistent, therefore I personally politely refuse to accept any "facts" posted here about Star Wars technology and firepower as true and real.


(I'm not on the side of 40k here. I'm on no side. It's just that Star Wars and those "OMG TERAGIGAPOWATON" numbers get the engineer in me steamed up.)

Witzkatz out.

You claim that they're inconsistent, yet you have given not one fact on the issue and have thrown out only wild asses guess based on nothing. If you claim that a million Fat man bombs can destroy a planet find the math to back you up. Also your whinning in another post about hwo the numbers don't add up to the way you see things is dishonest as you provide no proof besides your feels (Awe I'm touched) and have obviously not done any math on the subject.

Yeah, I believe that you're an engineer with a doctorate such as Darth Wong (The owner of Stardestroyer.net) or maybe even an Astrophysicist like Curtis Saxton (Co-author of the RoTS:ICS)...



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I doubt a stormtrooper could survive a bolter.

Bolters are armor piercing shells. Which explode inside their target.

(Also, lolEwokArrows. )

I have provided evidence of a scene where a Stormie is hit with a spear, thrown across a room by the impact, and his armor is only nicked and he is only knocked about within his armor. While the explosive force may deal damage along the seams we do not know the properties of the underlying bodyglove.

As for 'lolEwokArrows', Space Marines have been dragged down by primative cultists as well so it isn't a big deal to me.