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SGTPozy wrote: Exactly, they CAN one-shot Riptides, just like a lucky smash attack COULD one-shot a Land Raider.
These things could happen, no matter how unlikely.
Let's actually consider the likelihood of a Psilencer one-shotting a Riptide:
Spoiler:
Psilencer 6 shots @ BS4 means 4 hits;
S4 vs Riptide's T6 means ~0.67 wounds inflicted
Riptide 2+ armor mitigates this to a paltry:
~0.11 unsaved wounds
Using a Gatling Psilencer:
Spoiler:
12 shots @ BS4 means 8 hits
S4 vs Riptide T6 is ~1.34 wounds inflicted
Riptide 2+ saves this to ~0.22 unsaved wounds
So tell me again how your Riptide is blapped by a gun with 24" range, that can only fire Snap Shots when used by non-Relentless, moving infantry (IE, PAGK), and that has no AP value to speak of? Especially when the Riptide has a 6+2D6" movement, and is most often fielded with the IA, a 60" range weapon!
SGTPozy wrote: Activating force is no problem when you're playing Grey Knights and their warp charge shenanigans.
At the same time, Grey Knights also have far more useful powers to be activating than "Force" so that they can have a miniscule chance to try and gib a T6 monster that's unlikely to even be damaged at all by the weapon in question.
SGTPozy wrote: What is proposed is that the Psylincer becomes a TLDWBLW +1 since it has double the range AND force and only losing the TL... That is not okay!
My recommendation is that Psilencers can choose one of two profiles- one is S4+Force, while the other is S5+no invulns allowed, and no Force. Oh, by the way, Psilencers have never been twin-linked. Range bonuses are not doubling- the weapon is currently 24", and the recommendation for the infantry-portable model is that it go to Salvo 4/6 36" instead of Heavy 6 24", as the latter is useful only on Relentless infantry (who should be carrying the far superior Psycannon) or in a gunline (which GKs suck at doing).
The only reason for the range buff is because of the gak mechanics of Salvo that cut range in half if you move an inch. If Salvo was changed to only use a reduced RoF when moving, then the Psilencer's 24" range wouldn't be a problem, and it would nicely sync with most other GK-specific shooting weapons.
I'll repeat myself (again), with the current iteration of my recommended Psilencer change:
Spoiler:
Psilencer 36" Salvo 4/6 S4 AP- Force
36" Salvo 4/6 S5 AP- Psi-Shock
Psi-Shock: wounds caused by this weapon ignore invulnerable saves
Which, as we can see- again- is a choice between S4+Force, or S5+denying invulns.
SGTPozy wrote: If other armies can hug cover I'm pretty sure that Space Marine player can too.
It's hard to hug cover against an enemy that can simply ignore it.
I'm not saying that the Psylincer will kill a Riptide, I was refering to how I had mentioned it in the past having a chance of doing so, even if it is extremely unlikely.
Why I meant was that the suggested S6 is way too much just to tackle one unit (just like you wouldn't give a Chimera a jink-ignoring auto-explode cannon just to tackle the Wave Serpent; however GW did create Grav Centurions...)
My comment on force was because you said that you needed to activate it, but if you wanted to activate it you could easily do so.
Your suggestion of either S4 w/ force or S5 w/ no invulnerables is perfectly fine (IMO) and the TL part was to do with the TLDWBLW comparison as they are only ever TL.
Ashiraya wrote: Ignoring invuls altogether is incredibly strong. Maybe making it -1 to invuls or re-rolling sixes?
True; however, I don't see much choice with the alternatives, when I envision such an ability being used to counter some of the 2++ re-rollable invuln shenanigans that are being thrown around. Short of removing the ability to pull that off (which IMO is a much better solution), I don't see much else that could be done that's as clean and simple as "no invulns".
To be fair, Psilencers are still AP-, so they always allow armor saves to be taken. Were the 2++ re-rollable BS not a problem (IE, didn't exist), then I would probably have just said "S5, or S4+Force". A -1 penalty to invulnerable saves (of all kinds, not just Psyker/Daemon specific) would be interesting... but I feel that that would be a better way to recapture the uniqueness of the Psycannon- that the Psycannon imposes a -1 penalty to invulnerable saves taken against it, while the Psilencer has Force and the Incinerator has Soul Blaze.
SGTPozy wrote: I'm not saying that the Psylincer will kill a Riptide, I was refering to how I had mentioned it in the past having a chance of doing so, even if it is extremely unlikely.
It's not so much "unlikely", or even "extremely unlikely", as "functionally impossible". Not only is the Psilencer going to have supreme difficulty in actually pushing even just one wound through a Riptide's T6/2+ armor, but the Psilencers have to actually get into range in the first place. Given that it's a 24" range weapon that, if the unit moves, must be Snap fired, and the supposed target is a Riptide that most likely has an Ion Accelerator (a 60" range weapon), then I find it hard to believe the Psilencer will actually get the chance to even fire at the Riptide, let alone to any useful effect.
There's also the issue that Psilencers are currently so terrible that they're functionally useless. On GKTs, you never take Psilencers- always Psycannons. The substantial increase in versatility and firepower simply outweighs any ability to gib T4 multi-wound with wild abandon- and even then it's not that great. On PAGKs, the only viable option (due to lawlSalvo rules) is really the Incinerator. It's hard to say "Psilencers can gib Riptides!" when the possibility is so remote (between hits necessary, to-wound rolls, activating Force, and getting past armor saves), and even worse, the Psilencer is so terrible that it's never actually taken.
SGTPozy wrote: Why I meant was that the suggested S6 is way too much just to tackle one unit (just like you wouldn't give a Chimera a jink-ignoring auto-explode cannon just to tackle the Wave Serpent; however GW did create Grav Centurions...)
Out of curiosity, I ran the numbers for an S6 Psilencer and S6 Gatling Psilencer versus a Riptide. Here's the results:
Spoiler:
S6 Psilencer 6 shots @ BS4 for 4 hits; S6 vs T6 is 2 wounds
2 wounds vs 2+ armor is ~0.33 unsaved wounds
S6 Gatling Psilencer 12 shots @ BS4 for 8 hits; S6 vs T6 is 4 wounds
4 wounds vs 2+ armor is ~0.67 unsaved wounds
Which is, I'm sure you'd agree, incredibly unimpressive- the amount of shots that must be fired to gib a Riptide is incredibly high, even with Strength 6.
It's also worth noting that Necron Warrior blobs spamming Gauss came long before the GravCent did, and realistically does the same job better when considering anti-vehicle usage. Nobody seems to complain about that aspect of 'Crons... or really that aspect of GravCents TBH.
SGTPozy wrote: My comment on force was because you said that you needed to activate it, but if you wanted to activate it you could easily do so.
And I pointed out that GKs have a notable number of far more useful/game-changing powers to spend Warp Charge on than activating Force just so some Psilencers can instagib something.
SGTPozy wrote: Your suggestion of either S4 w/ force or S5 w/ no invulnerables is perfectly fine (IMO) and the TL part was to do with the TLDWBLW comparison as they are only ever TL.
Ashiraya wrote: Ignoring invuls altogether is incredibly strong. Maybe making it -1 to invuls or re-rolling sixes?
Ignoring invulnerables is useless as it still is AP-, there will always be a save there, which is why I recommended rending. You really need to think more thoroughly.
Ashiraya wrote: Ignoring invuls altogether is incredibly strong. Maybe making it -1 to invuls or re-rolling sixes?
Ignoring invulnerables is useless as it still is AP-, there will always be a save there, which is why I recommended rending. You really need to think more thoroughly.
Not at all. There's many units with better invul than armour, or even only invul. Hesperax and her wyches, harlequins, Crusaders, PFG, any daemon, and so on and so forth.
I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a
Ashiraya wrote: Ignoring invuls altogether is incredibly strong. Maybe making it -1 to invuls or re-rolling sixes?
Ignoring invulnerables is useless as it still is AP-, there will always be a save there, which is why I recommended rending. You really need to think more thoroughly.
Not at all. There's many units with better invul than armour, or even only invul. Hesperax and her wyches, harlequins, Crusaders, PFG, any daemon, and so on and so forth.
Those units already die to bolter fire. I don't need to ignore invuln saves to kill them.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Ashiraya wrote: Ignoring invuls altogether is incredibly strong. Maybe making it -1 to invuls or re-rolling sixes?
Ignoring invulnerables is useless as it still is AP-, there will always be a save there, which is why I recommended rending. You really need to think more thoroughly.
Not at all. There's many units with better invul than armour, or even only invul. Hesperax and her wyches, harlequins, Crusaders, PFG, any daemon, and so on and so forth.
Those units already die to bolter fire. I don't need to ignore invuln saves to kill them.
sure but it'd be basicly a hard counter to some very specific builds. mostly by deamons.
not nesscarily a bad thing. if deamons have an ability that's a little too awesome, giving GKs a specific hard counter is an intreasting way to address it. GKs shou;dn't be a hard counter to deamons of any type. but allowing em to counter a few of their more rediculas tricks might be fair.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Psilencers should be Poison 4+, AP -, Heavy 6, Force, while the Heavy version is Poison 4+, AP -, Heavy 12, Force, because why not? It's a flashlight that rips the souls out of living things, making vehicles immune, and armor relevant (although S6 would be more balanced than Poison, IMO).
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
There's still the issue that a 24" range weapon with the Heavy type on infantry that's heavily incentivized to move around (IE, PAGKs) is a terrible combination.
It still relegates the infantry version to a halfway useless gunline weapon.
The real issue with Psilencers, IMO, actually comes from the fact that they can't fire on the move with any useful effect, since they're forced to snapfire.
It's honestly the same problem that the Heavy Bolter has- it's just that HBs are also overcosted, while Psilencers are overly short ranged for their current weapon type.
Reminder, I have another thread where this conversation was supposed to be.
Spoiler:
Bill1138 wrote: To get this train back on track, my most recent suggestion involves fixing the Psilencer and Psycannon to bring the Grey Knights back into the shooting phase.
Psilencer: 36", S4, AP-, Salvo 4/6, Fleshbane, Force
Psycannon: 36", S7, AP-, Salvo 2/4, Armorbane
Both are good against infantry, but the Psilencer is also good against Monstrous Creatures, while the Psycannon is good against vehicles, and neither is particularly good against the other's specialty.
Salvo for the Psilencer is because the current Heavy 6 is worthless.
36" range on both makes their half range a usable 18", while the maximum range sacrifices the rest of the unit's shooting as they have only a 24" range.
Fleshbane on the Psilencer is because all enemy units get their saves against it, so it needs most of its shots to wound to have more than a laughable chance of any of them being unsaved.
Armorbane on the S7, AP4 Psycannon gives the Psycannon a fair chance at damaging AV13 like Soulgrinders. And being AP4 without Rending means it can't cause explosions, so the 2 or 4 shots are justified.
This suggestion brings the Grey Knights back into the shooting phase, which is so heavily emphasized in 7th Edition. If you crunch the numbers, this makes the Psilencer and Psycannon pretty much on par with what other codexes have access to in terms of their potential to remove models from the table.
Also, it makes both weapons unique, the Psycannon having a distinct profile, rather than being a "better Assault Cannon", and my suggestion doesn't require adding another gun that's just a "better Meltagun". This means my suggestion doesn't require any new models, and makes the current ones viable, which I believe makes it the best option for a rules change.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/07 16:26:34
Now to get this thread back on track (supposing people don't choose to let it fade into the background)...
Some people hold a grudge against the Grey Knights because of how powerful they were at the end of 5th Edition. This does not seem rational to me. Each Codex has been good, and has been bad, and right now, the Grey Knights are closer to bad than they are to good. If you ask a person what the best thing about the Grey Knights is, they'll likely tell you about some way of abusing the allies system. The Grey Knights are not over-powered if the best thing about them is what they give to another Codex. The broken combos people can make just mean the allies system is too open-ended.
Some people hate the Grey Knights for being to much of a Mary Sue. This does not seem rational to me either, as they are a military extention of the Emperor. The Emperor is about as much of a Mary Sue as you can make, yet only Chaos players seem to freely offer snarky comments about him. The Emperor is the Grey Knights' Primarch, and thus they share many of his traits. And while I'm on the topic of Mary Sues, Chaos is by definition the most powerful force in 40k, in that it doesn't matter how powerful or pure the Grey Knights or the Emperor is, because the Chaos gods will win in the end because they draw power from practically everything, including their enemies' hatred of them.
Some people hate the Grey Knights for "only spamming the same list of their best units". If one pays attention to the Grey Knight Codex, there aren't many good units in there, so there's going to be multiples in lists. Taking 2 of something does not constitute "spamming". And even when Grey Knights players do spam only the best models, they still lose half of their games, which means their ultimate cheese lists are only on-par with the regular lists other codexes can make. So this line of thought doesn't seem rational to me either.
It seems the Grey Knights are just simply the whipping-boy for the rest of the fandom.
Maybe its just because they trashed me last night, but I don't think GK are that low on the totem pole.
Moving a Rhino 12" then Cleansing Flaming? 9" bubble assault 2d6 -on each unit- ignores cover/los/combat status/etc? Took out 500 points of Harlequins on the bottom of 1! Can't handle at range. Can't get close. Oww.
And Interceptors with double S6 flamers? Some armies fry reap easy that way.
Not saying they are OP, but they aren't weak.
(Also, Fleshbane Force with high ROF? Even at AP-, you still drop a Wraithlord in single round on average dice. Are you sure that's right?)
Bharring wrote: Maybe its just because they trashed me last night, but I don't think GK are that low on the totem pole.
Moving a Rhino 12" then Cleansing Flaming? 9" bubble assault 2d6 -on each unit- ignores cover/los/combat status/etc? Took out 500 points of Harlequins on the bottom of 1! Can't handle at range. Can't get close. Oww.
And Interceptors with double S6 flamers? Some armies fry reap easy that way.
Not saying they are OP, but they aren't weak.
How can you not handle Grey Knights at range? They only have up to 24" on virtually everything. And aren't the Eldar a shooty army? They're less good at close combat because they have so much shooting potential. Am I right, or did I completely miss something?
And the Cleansing Flames taking out your Harlequins on the bottom of turn 1 means you moved up to them instead of staying back and shooting what you could to wreck the Rhino for an easy First Blood (or simply to deny the Purifiers that mobility), allowing them to do that, so that success was just tactics, not so much the overt power of the Cleansing flame.
and 2 Incinerators on an Interceptor Squad means he's fielding a 10 man squad of Interceptors, That's a pretty expensive unit, so its effectiveness is payed for.
(Also, Fleshbane Force with high ROF? Even at AP-, you still drop a Wraithlord in single round on average dice. Are you sure that's right?)
That's not the topic of this thread, and that suggestion was already scrapped for a new one. If you want to discuss that, it is on the "Proposed Rules" page under the title "Rounding out the Grey Knights Codex:".
Bharring wrote: Maybe its just because they trashed me last night, but I don't think GK are that low on the totem pole.
Moving a Rhino 12" then Cleansing Flaming? 9" bubble assault 2d6 -on each unit- ignores cover/los/combat status/etc? Took out 500 points of Harlequins on the bottom of 1! Can't handle at range. Can't get close. Oww.
And Interceptors with double S6 flamers? Some armies fry reap easy that way.
Not saying they are OP, but they aren't weak.
(Also, Fleshbane Force with high ROF? Even at AP-, you still drop a Wraithlord in single round on average dice. Are you sure that's right?)
Yeah - cleansing flame is one of our best tricks. Rhinos however are garbage and purfiers are just 24 point 1 W 3+ saves. The only time Cleansing flame really works is when you can get purfiers in drop pods through ally shenanigans or when you get it on your libby and go ham with GOI.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You know what other army has nothing longer than 24"?
Harlequins.
VoidWeavers and Skyweavers have some quite mild 24" antitank capabilities. Death Jesters, Shadow Seers, and Sky/Star/Void weavers have a little dakka at 24". But not much.
Most Harlequin shooting is capped at 12". Our only antitank infantry weapon is capped at 6".
GK get stormbolters at 24"
GK will routinely destroy harlequins if they try to stay at range.
How are Harlies going to hurt GK at range?
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Our only antitank pistol infantry is 30point t3 5++...)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/07 16:52:20
Shooting his Rhino with all my dakka that can hurt it outside 6"?
At 1000 points:
One S7 shot
2 Haywire blasts
A couple non-twinlinked ShuriCannons
Odds are, even if everything can get a clean shot with nothing intervening, its probably surviving. And now I've spent a full turn of dakka doing nothing, and leaving most of my army exposed.
I'm not saying there aren't things I can do. I'm just saying GK aren't bad right now.
Bharring wrote: Shooting his Rhino with all my dakka that can hurt it outside 6"?
At 1000 points:
One S7 shot
2 Haywire blasts
A couple non-twinlinked ShuriCannons
Odds are, even if everything can get a clean shot with nothing intervening, its probably surviving. And now I've spent a full turn of dakka doing nothing, and leaving most of my army exposed.
I'm not saying there aren't things I can do. I'm just saying GK aren't bad right now.
OK, so you're playing the Harlequin Codex and not the Harlequins from the Eldar Codex. I looked through the Harlequin codex, and unless I'm missing something, it looks like it is just objectively the weakest Codex in the game. It's more "meh" at everything than even the Grey Knights are, and the Grey Knights are pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none.
Bharring that is a such a flimsy argument it doesn't warrant nothing but a cursory reply.
You knew what you were getting into with Harlies, you knew they were a complimentary force to your other Eldar forces. Grey knights on the otherhand have history of being "standalone". The current dex has kneecapped certain options, rendering certain units useless, in a already small dex.
I'm *not* saying GK is OP. I'm saying they aren't bottom-of-the-stack either.
Not everything that isn't OP is trash.
Harlequins are quite 'meh', not really holding their own. But they aren't the only "army" feeling some pain from GK. I was just showcasing that they do have some nice options.
The claim that:
A) GK need a buff. Don't tell me to play something else, and
B) Anything weaker than GK? Go play a "real" 'Dex!
Rings a bit hollow.
GK definitely have too few options these days, and even among them, many are simply inferior. And there are armies that are basically better. But they do have some strong options, compared to most Dexes.
BrianDavion,
The point behind that comment was in response to the claim that, obviously GK wreaked if I got close, I should just destroy them at range. Because, apparently, Harlequins do that. Mostly, a misunderstanding (OP thought I was fielding CW Eldar).
Bharring, you're saying the Grey Knights aren't the bottom of the barrel by comparing them to the floor. Harlequins are an ally to Eldar, and were never intended to be a stand-alone army. The Grey Knights on the other hand have always been a stand-alone army. Compared to the other stand-alone Codexes, the Grey Knights are towards the bottom.
The claim that:
A) GK need a buff. Don't tell me to play something else, and
B) Anything weaker than GK? Go play a "real" 'Dex!
Rings a bit hollow.
A) The Grey Knights need balance, not a couple units being "must takes" and several others being handycaps on any army they're a part of. Fixing the weak and over-priced units isn't about buffing the Codex in relation to other Codexes, it's about re-introducing diversity to make it more fun to play, and to play against.
B) Other Codexes need fixes too. The problem of poor internal balance isn't just for the Grey Knights. But Harlequins have never been a stand-alone Codex any more than Inquisition, or Assassins (both of which I might point out were torn out of the Grey Knight Codex to make allied forces). If you're fielding an army that was created to be an ally, then you're going to be outmatched by any full stand-alone Codex. You knew what you were getting into, and a stand-alone 'dex being more powerful than an allied 'dex does not mean it's up to snuff when compared to the rest of the game.
I can beat GK with BA pretty consistently. That's not a ringing endorsement for the efficacy of GK, because I think the BA basically stink in the final analysis. BA also have bad firepower outside 24".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/07 18:31:34
I used my most recent game with them to show that they do have things that can do things. Harlequins have less of a Dex than GK, definitely. And probably should be that way. It was an anecdote, not a body of data.
But how do GK stand up to Orkz? Dark Eldar? CSM? Dark Angels? Serpent Spam and Grav and Riptides aren't the only books around.
We got off topic where we started talking about my Harlequins needing to hang back and outshoot them. Got my back up a little, and wasted a lot of peoples' time.
Bharring wrote: I used my most recent game with them to show that they do have things that can do things. Harlequins have less of a Dex than GK, definitely. And probably should be that way. It was an anecdote, not a body of data.
But how do GK stand up to Orkz? Dark Eldar? CSM? Dark Angels? Serpent Spam and Grav and Riptides aren't the only books around.
We got off topic where we started talking about my Harlequins needing to hang back and outshoot them. Got my back up a little, and wasted a lot of peoples' time.
In my meta, my Orks have consistently beat GK largely because we act as a pretty heavy counter for their super-elite army status. Green Tide has too many bodies and hidden klaws for even multiple dreadknights to handle, and they can shunt all they want but they can't stop my horde from controlling at least half the board and its objectives. Even against Battlewagon Rush lists, GK are limited given their lack of melta weaponry and reliable anti-tank outside of CC, so I normally am able to pair up my battlewagon units to combo-charge Dreadknights and wipe them out. Their terminators pose an even smaller threat given the amount of dakka we have to torrent them down.
