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I don't hate the Grey Knights book. For that matter I had a Daemonhunters army at one point.
I do hate the dreadknight, and for several seperate reasons.

a) It conflicts with one of the fundamental images of the grey knights - the lone paladin staring up at the monster towering over him. Have a look at the cover of Dark Heresy: Daemonhunter for the sort of thing I mean. They aren't an army which feels like it should be doing pacific rim impressions.

b) A big part of their effectiveness is an option which contradicts itself - the personal teleporter. Interceptor Squads wear powered armour rather than terminator plate because personal teleporters can't cope with the bulk of terminator armour. Apparently, if that terminator armour is strapped to a giant armoured baby carrier three times bigger still, everythings fine....

c) It's really not an especially nice model (personal taste, obviously).

d) The combination of 2+ armour save and T6 monstrous creature with-one-turn-to-kill-it-before-it-reaches-you which started with this is what prompted things like grav weapons being spammable for a ha'porth of points as a counter, which in turn rendered significant chunks of other armies (even more) useless.

e) Taking the above four points, the fact that it's so much damn better point for point than anything else in the codex means that every Grey Knight army I see is heavily built around what I think is an unfluffy, game-balance wrecking, ugly unit. To make matters worse, I have similar views of the Centurion Warsuit....and guess what any Grey Knight army has inevitably allied in and attached to Draigo?

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm going to try to explain this one more time from the perspective of BA and marines in general. Dreadknights voluntarily put themselves in grav range, plasma range, meltagun range, hell, even infernus pistol range sometimes.

This is incredibly hazardous for the Dreadknight whether or not they have a 4++ save going or not.

Compare this to my options against Ritpides. Lascannons? What else can reach them that gets through 2+ saves? Many players in my meta don't even use lascannons anymore.


Now I still think the GK are stupid faction with largely stupid units with stupid fluff, but the Dreadknight is not an issue.

On the other hand, Dreadknights also often put themselves voluntarily in melee, where they can't be shot AT ALL. Riptides seldom do that.

From a Tau perspectuve, I'd rather see triple Riptides on the other side of the table (which I can largely ignore and focus on the juicer parts of his army) than Dreadknights (which will shunt forward, force me to shoot them whether I want it or not, otherwise they will just destroy pretty mych everything they see fit in melee next round, or just lock Riptides in combat, which is a bug advantage for the rest of the MEQ army)

They can't do that the turn they shunt. I only need that one turn usually to get out assault range or gun them down mercilessly. They have the same syndrome as deep striking assault units. The one turn delay assault lag is literally killer. There's a reason DoA went from meaning "Descent of Angels" to "Dead on arrival".

Gunning them down mercilessly: 3 IA/Fusion Riptides and 6 Missilesides do not on average put out enough damage to kill 2 Dreadknights with Sanctuary (about 6.9 hp without Marker support, which is not a given, he.might Incinetator/Psycannon them, might shunt with toe in terrain requiring ignore cover etc.).

Moving out of assault range: Riptides move 6 and jump 2d6. Broadsides move 6 and can run 1d6 if they forfeit shooting. Dreadknight moves 12 and charges 2d6. Not particularly great escape odds.


EDIT: I really am curious about a BA setup that guns down 3 Dreadknights in a round.

Yeah and we are putting more than just DK forward - sometimes interceptors, usually terminators with a few libbies - my GK strategy is always to overwhelm turn 1. It works amazing against tau.

I don't need to kill all of them. Only the ones that will reach on their next turn. Or the one not being visited by the DC w/some power fists. BA speed is good for running away, too.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't need to kill all of them. Only the ones that will reach on their next turn. Or the one not being visited by the DC w/some power fists. BA speed is good for running away, too.

Yeah against a BA army I wouldn't rush in like that. Most my army would be in reserve and I'd just take pot shots at you all game and use my mobilitiy. It would be a decent matchup. Idk what you run in BA but the BA I play against bring 3 SR so I usually am fighting an uphill battle - Usually I'm fighting allong side BA in 2v2's and I know DC aint nothing to mess around with.

As a faction, I like the Grey Knights, heck the Daemon Hunters were the army that I started 40k with. My main issue with them as present is that they lost alot of the stuff they had in the old 3e book, like Inquisitorial Storm Troopers, to gain Dreadknights.

I don't like Dreadknights, not because of rules, I just don't like the ascetic of the model, nor do I like the concept in the fluff. To me personally the Grey Knights used to be more about the strength of will, and one man against the odds can save the day. Now sure that one man can save the day, but now he's in a giant robot, rather than facing down a Blood Thirster while on foot in his Terminator armor.

That said, I think the Paladins are pretty cool, same for the Interceptor Squads. I had been wanting Teleporter Pack models since DoW: Dark Crusade.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't need to kill all of them. Only the ones that will reach on their next turn. Or the one not being visited by the DC w/some power fists. BA speed is good for running away, too.

Yeah against a BA army I wouldn't rush in like that. Most my army would be in reserve and I'd just take pot shots at you all game and use my mobilitiy. It would be a decent matchup. Idk what you run in BA but the BA I play against bring 3 SR so I usually am fighting an uphill battle - Usually I'm fighting allong side BA in 2v2's and I know DC aint nothing to mess around with.

I usually run zero SR, but run a lot of AP 2 shooting, because most meqs, and lighter units I just punch in the face.

Martel732 wrote:


Sounds like Tau players have no problem handing out the turn 3 tablings, but can't accept them when they come their way.

Just curious, hiw did you get to that conclusion from what I posted?

"Killing even 1 dreadknight with 4++ or ruins cover in 1 turn is real tough for tau to do. If tau goes first I hide the DK in LOS blocking or I just deploy in a method that can get me focused down - I've lost some first turn - usually lose none. If GK go first I kill all marker lights and or fire warriors turn 1 with torrent flamers. Turn 3 tabling often occurs - followed by a lot of tau whining. They'll sit there with 2-3 tide armies and call DK OP. I'm just like...why you mad bro?"

I was referencing this post, not your post. I've been embarrassed by Taudar too many times to times to be completely objective here.

Martel732 wrote:
"Killing even 1 dreadknight with 4++ or ruins cover in 1 turn is real tough for tau to do. If tau goes first I hide the DK in LOS blocking or I just deploy in a method that can get me focused down - I've lost some first turn - usually lose none. If GK go first I kill all marker lights and or fire warriors turn 1 with torrent flamers. Turn 3 tabling often occurs - followed by a lot of tau whining. They'll sit there with 2-3 tide armies and call DK OP. I'm just like...why you mad bro?"

I was referencing this post, not your post. I've been embarrassed by Taudar too many times to times to be completely objective here.

Taudar was in 6th, we're in 7th now buddy. By the same logic we should all hate GKs because of their Ward dex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordBlades wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Sounds like Tau players have no problem handing out the turn 3 tablings, but can't accept them when they come their way.

Just curious, hiw did you get to that conclusion from what I posted?

It's Martel, most of what he says makes no sense

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Killing even 1 dreadknight with 4++ or ruins cover in 1 turn is real tough for tau to do. If tau goes first I hide the DK in LOS blocking or I just deploy in a method that can get me focused down - I've lost some first turn - usually lose none. If GK go first I kill all marker lights and or fire warriors turn 1 with torrent flamers. Turn 3 tabling often occurs - followed by a lot of tau whining. They'll sit there with 2-3 tide armies and call DK OP. I'm just like...why you mad bro?"

I was referencing this post, not your post. I've been embarrassed by Taudar too many times to times to be completely objective here.

Taudar was in 6th, we're in 7th now buddy. By the same logic we should all hate GKs because of their Ward dex.

Dude I still hate hormagaunts because of 2nd.

"It's Martel, most of what he says makes no sense"

You're a bit late. I already explained that post.

For those who don't like the aesthetic of the "baby carrier" Dreadknight, I have seen people change it, not putting on the Terminator and instead closing off the front with cool looking bits, and putting an Imperial Knight head on top, so it looks more like an over-sized terminator.

 Xenomancers wrote:
"Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.

I think you misunderstood. I mentioned gun lines as people dislike playing against them as they're boring as you just walk up and remove your guys, just like how against GKs you can't do anything as no army can take out all of the Dreadknights that they field in a single turn.

Like I've said many times before, most Tau play suits and not gun lines in 7th due to Maelstrom.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.

I think you misunderstood. I mentioned gun lines as people dislike playing against them as they're boring as you just walk up and remove your guys, just like how against GKs you can't do anything as no army can take out all of the Dreadknights that they field in a single turn.

Like I've said many times before, most Tau play suits and not gun lines in 7th due to Maelstrom.

I saw a list with six grav cents do it. But yes, it's hard to kill 3-4 MCs in a single turn.

Martel732 wrote:

Dude I still hate hormagaunts because of 2nd.

Wow... That sounds extremely immature, don't you think maybe you should grow up and move on?

Martel732 wrote:
"It's Martel, most of what he says makes no sense"

You're a bit late. I already explained that post.

Still true, just look at all of your posts about BA and crap like that.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.

I think you misunderstood. I mentioned gun lines as people dislike playing against them as they're boring as you just walk up and remove your guys, just like how against GKs you can't do anything as no army can take out all of the Dreadknights that they field in a single turn.

Like I've said many times before, most Tau play suits and not gun lines in 7th due to Maelstrom.

I saw a list with six grav cents do it. But yes, it's hard to kill 3-4 MCs in a single turn.

Well SM and their Grav Cents are extremely cheesy so I am not surprised.

As soon as GW gives me an option to play a non gunline army am all for GK having shunting NDKs.

I have no sympathy for Tau, but seeing GK murder them without breaking a sweat sucks.

Also, the baby carrier is dumb.

SGTPozy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.

I think you misunderstood. I mentioned gun lines as people dislike playing against them as they're boring as you just walk up and remove your guys, just like how against GKs you can't do anything as no army can take out all of the Dreadknights that they field in a single turn.

Like I've said many times before, most Tau play suits and not gun lines in 7th due to Maelstrom.

Tau run a variety of things. It's a result of basically everything in the codex being good enough to play. Unlike GK which have libbies and DK and cheap troop termies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I have no sympathy for Tau, but seeing GK murder them without breaking a sweat sucks.

Also, the baby carrier is dumb.

I really don't have much sympathy for them ether. If I played any other way I'd get wiped out pretty quick and maybe not completely destroy any units in their army.

 Xenomancers wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
"Just Saiyan, just like most people hate gun lines."
I think you hit the nail on the head their Pozy. Dreadknights obliterate gunlines that require a few turns of shooting to have a chance. Most GK armies put at least 4 heard units right in your face turn 1 so tau,AM in particular HATE dreadknights and therefore hate GK. This is the source of most hate. Armies that bring 15 grav guns just laugh at these kinds of armies though - as well as eldar with all their pseudo rending.

I think you misunderstood. I mentioned gun lines as people dislike playing against them as they're boring as you just walk up and remove your guys, just like how against GKs you can't do anything as no army can take out all of the Dreadknights that they field in a single turn.

Like I've said many times before, most Tau play suits and not gun lines in 7th due to Maelstrom.

Tau run a variety of things. It's a result of basically everything in the codex being good enough to play. Unlike GK which have libbies and DK and cheap troop termies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I have no sympathy for Tau, but seeing GK murder them without breaking a sweat sucks.

Also, the baby carrier is dumb.

I really don't have much sympathy for them ether. If I played any other way I'd get wiped out pretty quick and maybe not completely destroy any units in their army.

As a DA player, I know that feeling bro. I have one or two lists that I run that can take Tsu. That's it.

I have yet to test my Daemons, but I think they have some more flexibility.

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Dude I still hate hormagaunts because of 2nd.

Wow... That sounds extremely immature, don't you think maybe you should grow up and move on?

I'll say the same to you. You're stuck on a rage train against GKs that left the station when 6th edition came out.

It sounds like I'm being called out for not understanding BA. Or that my posts about them make no sense. Is this correct? And if so, please provide some specifics.

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Dude I still hate hormagaunts because of 2nd.

Wow... That sounds extremely immature, don't you think maybe you should grow up and move on?

I'll say the same to you. You're stuck on a rage train against GKs that left the station when 6th edition came out.

The difference is that Martel loves to say about how his army sucks because he cannot play them whilst I hate on the most ridiculous army in the game as their net-list players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It sounds like I'm being called out for not understanding BA. Or that my posts about them make no sense. Is this correct? And if so, please provide some specifics.

Drop pods suck because YOU cannot get them to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about we not go down this road on this thread? I'll be happy to continue in pm but let's not derail this thread, okay?

GK is the most ridiculous army in the game? Really?

Most rational posters put BA in the bottom 25% of lists. Pretty sure if we army swapped I'd massacre you. BA are a pain to run in a TAC environment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SGTPozy wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Dude I still hate hormagaunts because of 2nd.

Wow... That sounds extremely immature, don't you think maybe you should grow up and move on?

I'll say the same to you. You're stuck on a rage train against GKs that left the station when 6th edition came out.

The difference is that Martel loves to say about how his army sucks because he cannot play them whilst I hate on the most ridiculous army in the game as their net-list players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
It sounds like I'm being called out for not understanding BA. Or that my posts about them make no sense. Is this correct? And if so, please provide some specifics.

Drop pods suck because YOU cannot get them to work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about we not go down this road on this thread? I'll be happy to continue in pm but let's not derail this thread, okay?

You brought it up, chief. I'm not going to run off to PM when I didn't start it.

"Drop pods suck because YOU cannot get them to work"

Not true. I don't think they are a good choice for a TAC environment. With a priori knowledge, I'd use them a lot more. I don't think BA are a good pod list in general though.

Martel732 wrote:
GK is the most ridiculous army in the game? Really?

Most rational posters put BA in the bottom 25% of lists. Pretty sure if we army swapped I'd massacre you. BA are a pain to run in a TAC environment.

No, I'd win by exploiting allies.

Martel732 wrote:

You brought it up, chief. I'm not going to run off to PM when I didn't start it.

Well, I've already said about how drop pods are 'useless'.

You say that your troops (so tactical marines) are 'useless' even though if used TACTICALLY, they are good.

You think that you have no useful fire power as it "isn't as good as xeno's".

You view terminators as being a storm bolter, when their main feature is their 2+ 5++.

Mephiston 'sucks' apparently.

Need I continue?

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
GK is the most ridiculous army in the game? Really?

Most rational posters put BA in the bottom 25% of lists. Pretty sure if we army swapped I'd massacre you. BA are a pain to run in a TAC environment.

No, I'd win by exploiting allies.

Martel732 wrote:

You brought it up, chief. I'm not going to run off to PM when I didn't start it.

Well, I've already said about how drop pods are 'useless'.

You say that your troops (so tactical marines) are 'useless' even though if used TACTICALLY, they are good.

You think that you have no useful fire power as it "isn't as good as xeno's".

You view terminators as being a storm bolter, when their main feature is their 2+ 5++.

Mephiston 'sucks' apparently.

Need I continue?

I don't own allies. I'm not giving GW that kind of jack. It's not THAT important. So if that's your big plan if we list swap, you are t-totally hosed.

Drop pods aren't useless, just not a good choice for TAC BA lists. I seem to have a lot more success defending against drop lists than you. Who is complaining about their army now?

I hate tac marines. Lots of other posters find them terrible as well. Lots of posters think they are great. That seems like a split decision there.

Xeno dedicated firepower lists have a lot more firepower than most marine lists, and especially BA lists. In a shooting edition, that seems like a big advantage to me.

Tac Terminators are perhaps the worst unit in C:SM or BA and there is non-trivial level of consensus that they are, at best, poor.

Mephiston is terrific. Better than in the Wardex, imo.

And I was thinking this was something about Dark Eldar and/or Harlequin transports and Grey Knights...

All kidding aside - RULE #1 everyone.

locarno24 wrote:
I don't hate the Grey Knights book. For that matter I had a Daemonhunters army at one point.
I do hate the dreadknight, and for several seperate reasons.

a) It conflicts with one of the fundamental images of the grey knights - the lone paladin staring up at the monster towering over him. Have a look at the cover of Dark Heresy: Daemonhunter for the sort of thing I mean. They aren't an army which feels like it should be doing pacific rim impressions.

This was explained in the 5th Ed DreadKnight unit entry, pre-Pacific Rim: <paraphrasing> "to fight the greatest of Greater Daemons, the Nemesis DreadKnight was created."

b) A big part of their effectiveness is an option which contradicts itself - the personal teleporter. Interceptor Squads wear powered armour rather than terminator plate because personal teleporters can't cope with the bulk of terminator armour. Apparently, if that terminator armour is strapped to a giant armoured baby carrier three times bigger still, everythings fine....

Also explained in the unit entry, Interceptors are Strikers with the mental fortitude to shield themselves whle transisting the Warp, because their Power Armor does not include the same shielding as Tactical Dreadnought Armor. While no further mention as made as to why TDA does not mount their own Personal Teleporters, it as implied that Nemesis DreadKnights have the power to use their own PTs. One could say its a power to mass issue.

c) It's really not an especially nice model (personal taste, obviously).

Aesthetics are a personal things, do can't fault you for that. On the other hand, as a huge Shirow Masamune fan, I quite like the look.

d) The combination of 2+ armour save and T6 monstrous creature with-one-turn-to-kill-it-before-it-reaches-you which started with this is what prompted things like grav weapons being spammable for a ha'porth of points as a counter, which in turn rendered significant chunks of other armies (even more) useless.

DreadKnights are actually pretty weak stat wise for a 200+ point Monstrous Creature. 2+/5+++ T6 is nothing special when most AP1-2 is S8+. Being a Jump MC at 200-230 points is a huge nerf when all the other Jump MC ftom 5th got promoted to Flying MCs in 6th. Add to that Grav weapons, hidden powerklaws, Riptide-Broadside-Marklight shenanigans, and WraithKnights, all solid DK-Killers, knocking the DK down even further. At this point, if you are afraid of a couple DreadKnights, you need to switch to a different game of toy soldiers. Yes, people can still field 8 DKs at 1850 in a Battleforged list, but you can also field 5 Imperial Knights at 1850, or an entire Flying Nid army, or an entire T5 Grav Marine list. I mean seriously, either play better, or play better people.

e) Taking the above four points, the fact that it's so much damn better point for point than anything else in the codex means that every Grey Knight army I see is heavily built around what I think is an unfluffy, game-balance wrecking, ugly unit. To make matters worse, I have similar views of the Centurion Warsuit....and guess what any Grey Knight army has inevitably allied in and attached to Draigo?

Taking all the above points, the fact that you are adverse to change is pretty clear. Sorry to hear.

SJ

"DreadKnights are actually pretty weak stat wise for a 200+ point Monstrous Creature"

Aneurysms in 3... 2... 1...

I wouldn't say weak, but they are certainly nothing special at all. Especially given the range of their weapons.

Grey Knights were to 5th edition what Daemons of Chaos were to 7th in Fantasy, namely, they were the single army that utterly ruined the game for a majority of players & simply left you with a bad taste in your mouth.

While they didn't cause an excessive case of 'power-creep', (due to them being the last "true" 5th edition codex, unlike DoC which were only the 4th book of 7th), they certainly did force multiple armies to pretty much just quit and sit on the sidelines...
1. Daemons were actually unable to even legally deploy against GK's due to Warp Quake. Even just a single Quake-capable squad, used properly, would utterly bone the entire Daemon army due to the massive bubble of instant mishap it created. RAW, 'juggling' misshaping units between/within quake bubble(s) was possible to ensure a 50/50 shot at auto-killing any unit that had the misfortune of scattering into a quake zone.
On top of all the other obnoxious crap GK's got to help pick on Daemons (and by extension other Psykers), specifically.

2. Tyranids were rendered completely harmless by both Coteaz armies and min/maxed Purifyer spam. They had no defense other than their SitW to guard against the aptly named "Winning Flame" which would outright decimate their units.
Those walls of Psybacks were a pain as well, due to 5th making even light transports 'uber, combined with a sickening lack of viable anti-tank within the Tyranid codex.
All those massed Psycannons everywhere, on top of S5 Storm Bolters helped to chew up their supposed numbers advantage. The frankly broken as feth I6! Pointy-Death-Sticks simply made all the medium & monstrous bugs, bar the Swarmlord cry... I guess they still had the Doom as well, but, overall, Knights simply laughed at the bugs.

3. Orks were shoehorned into playing a 'Kanwall' + max Lootas army, occasionally sprinkled with a Battlewagon or two. But again, a Xenos close combat army was utterly neutered simply by the combinations (and popularity) of Purifyers, who had an answer for absolutely anything the Orks could throw at them. (flamez da Boyz, force da Toyz)

4. BA's were forced into playing av11/av13 wall. All their uniqueness of being the 'close combat Marine army' and 'jump pack specialists' were nerfed to Kingdom Come simply because GK's in combat were BA's +1000. Power toys for almost everyone to remove saves & FnP, I6 to auto-counter even charging BA's, Warp Quake to remove any DoA potential...
GK's sucked for BA's more so than any other updated Marine Chapter.

Plus all the additional gimmicks such as 'suck-my-****' grenades that could auto-win any combat, obnoxiously undercosted upgrades such as 5pts Psybolts on dual Autocannon Dreads, Fortitude on Rhinos/Razorbacks...
Draigo allowing GK's to build the ultimate Deathstar unit at the time, during a point in the game where not only were counters to a multi-wound 2+/5++ models lacking, but the missions for most part also heavily favoured such as unit as well. (Kill Points for example was pretty much an auto-win for Draigowing!)



All this epicness meant that seemingly every single power gamer, cheesehead and/or TFG flocked to GK's en mass. They were all you ever seemed to see, and there was no such thing for the most part of a 'fun' GK list to face.
Most of the time, it seemed you ended up fighting one of the 3 staple power lists, (Draigowing/Crowewing/Henchmen spam), and most games simply turned into an exercise in how to get tabled & handle it with grace.

While Grey Knights are nothing like that anymore, it does take a long time for people to forget, let alone forgive 'That One Army' which ended up ruining the game for them... Hell, look at Fantasy! Daemons of Chaos are the outright most abysmal book of 8th edition. (you think GK's is lacking in choice - try playing Tzeentch of Khorne in Fantasy!)
Yet because of 'that one summer' where a minority of ***hats trolled everyone with abusive DoC armies, every single Daemon player is still taking a large amount of flack because of it.

That was an impressive explanation.

Anyone else remember 2nd ed hormagaunts? That's definitely going on with GK.

Martel732 wrote:
"DreadKnights are actually pretty weak stat wise for a 200+ point Monstrous Creature"

Aneurysms in 3... 2... 1...

I wouldn't say weak, but they are certainly nothing special at all. Especially given the range of their weapons.

Okay, Martel, I was thinking they're crazy for caling you crazy, but c'mon. Breaking down the statline, a DK is pretty good. It's too bad their range sucks, if only they could move clo-oh wait, they can do exactly that!