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Someone tell me if this is a bad 5th edition metagame list design concept:

Base the list around this (Thinking a 1850 point list here...it might struggle at 1500)-

Eldrad
Farseer with guide and fortune.
2 units of 6 Dire avengers (sitting in the tanks if possible).
1-3 Super Falcons
0-2 Super Fire Prism
A small unit of Harlies with shadowseer for the IC's to sit with or another hard/fearless unit.
Add in other units for flavour.

Sit the tanks on a refused flank in response to the enemies deployment behind cover for objectives etc.
Eldrad and Farseer to fortune/guide holofielded Falcons/Prism for 4+ reroll cover then having to deal with the holofield + AV 12. They seem pretty resiliant to me. Effectively 4 hits for 1 roll on the vehicle damage chart with holofields isn't going to take down very many in a game it seems.

Gun options on the tanks are really up to what turns out to be the best metagame build (Either brightlances for anti tank or combining fireprism shots, as they'll be sitting still most of the game, or more dakka for hordes).

It is just whether the vehicles can be used effectively as line of sight blockers for Eldar spearlock squads that are backing them up and can suicide (get their points back into things) when required.

It can zoom out with Troops for objectives at the end game, bladestorming.

I'm not saying that a drop podding army wouldn't be able to do something about it, but the player would be able to react to that play (considering skimmers now block line of sight) and corral their troops + fortune the SMF cover save.

This is more of an exercise in "What I would find extremely annoying to play in 5th edition" and to be honest this one takes the cake.

Has anyone had any experience playing with/against something like this yet?

Been on both sides.

It's annoying.

Lots of things are annoying.

Welcome to 5th Edition.

So, if I blow up your two units of avengers... now what do you do? I don't have to kill your tanks in 5th ed, just hit them enough that they can't shoot. Most armies can do that with your best armor being AV12.

Your really going to feel it in missions where you need troops to win. If your entire army is intact with the exceptions of your two units of avengers and my entire army is obliterated save one troop choice on an objective, I still win.

Tank heavy armies are going to be at a real disadvantage in 5th. Less points for troop scoring units. Who cares if they are harder to kill when you don't even have to kill them in the first place.

How will you kill the troops?

They only come out when the smoke is clearing or are on cleanup duty.

The point is the falcons being stupidly hard to kill(probably harder than 4th edition with the 4+, 4+ cover), combined with Eldrads redeploy, combined with blocking LOS and being able to protect all of your forces from shooting (except the resiliant tanks), and being able to jump and dump in the final stages of the game.

This kind of tank heavy army is at a distinct advantage in 5th because of its combined stalwart and reactionary nature.

You need to kill the tanks because they will be dumping scoring units on objectives in the end game.

I'm not saying that it's unbeatable, but it would be a force that would be easy to lose to, especially in a tourney format.

BeefyG wrote:

It can zoom out with Troops for objectives at the end game, bladestorming.

Since all games have a random turn length that's easier said than done.

Play 1 game against tau.
Have 4+ rerollable cover save removed by markerlights.
Get penetrated by S10 Ap1 Railgun.
Lose one falcon for every 3 shots.

It has a counter now, the days of holofield invincibility will soon be over.

The tanks may be difficult to kill, but they will not be hard at all to neuter, just as they are in this edition. Just shake and ignore. I've been on the receiving end of that equation, and it's what convinced me to rate skimmer shooting as a nice extra, but never a primary asset to rely upon.

I see that you get this, but your follow-up in the form of transported troops isn't nasty enough. The plant to dump a small quantity of troops on objectives is hindered by letting the enemy set up dense units of infantry all over the objectives while your skimmers stand off and get shaken. Even with a Tank Shock on those infantry (and Tank Shock will be more risky than before), unless the enemy falls back (not likely) your transported infantry won't have anywhere to bail out that can score. Again, this is assuming the enemy has troops over/around the objectives becuase your shooting has been mostly neutralized in previous turns.

Don't get me wrong- I think skimmers will still be viable, and Prisms will be quite useful. But you're going to need at least one unit of tenacious troops to clear and claim those objectives. Two units of mounted DAs in Serpents, plus one hammer un it of CC specialists (harlies or Banshees, possibly Spears) will probably work best for this. That plus two Prisms is likely to be the new generic mech mix, with HQ (Fortune seers) and FA to flavor.

On a tangential note, I'd like to express how pissed off I am that bikes can't claim objectives. They would have been the perfect troops to do so, and could have added another element to the balance of vehicles vs. infantry in the new edition. As-is, it looks like they will be an afterthought at best. Blah.

PS- Jetbike Seers will be better than foot seers (even Eldrad) in your list, as moving your tanks about will allow them to recuperate from shaken results and get some shooting in at least every other round. At least one mounted seer is a good idea to stay within 6" of those moving tanks, even if some of them stay put. Plus they can be Foruned on the first turn without having to leave at least one Seer in the dust.

Moz wrote:Play 1 game against tau.
Have 4+ rerollable cover save removed by markerlights.
Get penetrated by S10 Ap1 Railgun.
Lose one falcon for every 3 shots.

It has a counter now, the days of holofield invincibility will soon be over.

stinkin' tau!

my brother once wiped out a formerly concealed guardian squad with a hammerhead, TO THE MAN. BS5 Pie plate + burstcannons

I cry.

only time they have ever actually been _killed_, rather than just running their girlie asses off the table.

Well, the enemy weren't shooting that railgun at Apsect Warriors, WLs or vehicles. Therefore, the Guardians did their job.

Savnock wrote:Well, the enemy weren't shooting that railgun at Apsect Warriors, WLs or vehicles. Therefore, the Guardians did their job.

true enough. It also sucked up ... five? markerlight shots. Something would have had to pay.

I keep hearing how fortune is going to make eldar tanks unstoppable, but isn't it only 6" in range? Doesn't sound like that is going to be an easy, or sure thing.

And if people start using it more, there are going to more psychic hoods appearing. That also puts a hit on it being a sure thing. All it takes is failing it once and you have a problem.

It's a lot better than it is now. I will take that chance at getting a penetrating shot...

Bikeseer, bikeseer, bikeseer. No other conversion-necessary mini has ever paid off so much for me before. Makes that 6" range much less of a liability, AND it makes him a very viable anti-tank weapon. That BS5 S9 spear has saved my bacon from Leman Russes more than once. More importantly, he can zoom from hotspot to hotspot to Fortune when needed, especially in ugly CC sessions later in the batttle.

As for the hood, that's a problem no matter what vs. Imperials. I always expect to see those fricking things on the table in any competitive game.

You're right that one shouldn't consider it a sure thing. It's also just one (occasionally two, and three tops but only with Eldrad) tank. We'll mostly have to use cover like everyone else.

Bikeseer will need an escort in 5th and can only Fortune one tank. Makes the whole thing a lot less appealing.

Good points raised:

I think I should clarify a bit further that this is merely a list design concept that seems solidly annoying to face in the new edition of 40k "in terms of tourney metagame". I know that a lot of things are easier said than done concerning in game mechanics...but I'm only throwing theories about.

Yakface - That is the conundrum that would need to be solved through the choice of those extra units and using the falcon wall tactically. The random game length is the biggy, but hopefully you would have dented the opponents army/ability to respond significantly by that stage. If not then I think you are playing for a draw at best anyway.

Moz - Getting that number of markerlight hits on the one unit in a game where your opponent can see where you are putting them and react accordingly means that most times they will be target number 1 and will be placed out of range of them if at all possible 1st turn...and as you'll know who has first turn you can choose to either be out of range...or guess who's going to die first? Therefore I feel that is one of those "easier said than done's" as well.

Savnock - You raise several good points. The problem will be in the increased volume required to get that stun and move on. When 75% of all the hits (which would be on average a bit better than half the number of shots for most armies) are flat out ignored, then the number of shots required to normally shake and ignore goes up considerably. I'm not sure how army builds will change in the near future but with the emphasis on troops etc...that will mean less of those big guns that would be required to deal with this.

I agree with your point that the troops (whether it turns out to be 3 squads of avengers in three falcons or not) are'nt nasty enough. It's what you do with the left over points (About 800 give or take) in the rest of your army that will help decide how it really plays.

Toreador - Good point if this build does start to dominate the scene (Lets face it, there are enough players with these damn models already) we will inevitably see more of the psychic stoppers put to use. We'll have to see how codex marines pans out before any certain decisions can be made about viable tourney builds though.
"...putting a hit on it will be a sure thing..." Ahh it will still be a 50/50 no?, and sure a penetrating hit is good but still 2 dice make it a good chance of only shaking after that.

Moz's point that things have a counter in 5th is valid, but in terms of taking a balanced competative army to the tourney scene I don't place much value in easy solutions. True the Tau, as would be Crons (always were) are those armies better equiped to get a win against this build...thinking how those armies will fair in the new edition adds further complexity to the equation however.

I never stated that it would be unbeatable, just quite flexible and hard at the same time , able to dominate the flow of the game.

The problem of using the seer on bike with cohort is fine, except that eldrad is a requirement thus you are going to be stuck with two types of force (unless dropping models to fit him in transports). Is he allowed to use fortune on another vehicle while inside?

Having the all mech force means you can lose out covering table edge area (important to stop infiltrating/scout reserves in 5th). The Serpents could make up for the much needed antitank in the force (using the falcon wall as cover).

Both would have their advantages.

Sorry Toreador, I mis-read your post. Please ignore my mis-quote.

Jayden63 wrote:So, if I blow up your two units of avengers... now what do you do? I don't have to kill your tanks in 5th ed, just hit them enough that they can't shoot. Most armies can do that with your best armor being AV12.

Much easier said than done. Those avengers are going to be sitting behind either line of sight blocking terrain or behind wall of line of sight blocking tanks (or both). And they are not going to be moving at all until the end of the game draws near. So killing them off is going to be a challenge. However, if you do manage it, you will probably win the game, so its something to shoot for. As for killing the tanks, its not the AV12 that keeps them from dieing, it’s the 4+ cover save and fortune that makes 75% of the shots at them just go away that keeps them alive (not to mention the new, less deadly damage tables). Running the math, it takes 9 las cannon shots or 12 missile launcher shots (on average) from marines (or other bs4 sources) to do damage (at all) to a falcon or a prism under these conditions. Good luck with that. I think what this list fears significantly more than its tanks dieing is something podding down and killing the avengers (assuming they are not embarked).

Savnock wrote:I see that you get this, but your follow-up in the form of transported troops isn't nasty enough. The plant to dump a small quantity of troops on objectives is hindered by letting the enemy set up dense units of infantry all over the objectives while your skimmers stand off and get shaken. Even with a Tank Shock on those infantry (and Tank Shock will be more risky than before), unless the enemy falls back (not likely) your transported infantry won't have anywhere to bail out that can score. Again, this is assuming the enemy has troops over/around the objectives because your shooting has been mostly neutralized in previous turns.

Again, look at the numbers. With it taking 9-12 anti tank weapons a turn to shake an eldar tank, I don’t think it’s going to be a big hindrance on them. Not many armies are going to be fielding that kind of fire power. The enemy will, however, be very likely to have lots of troops pilling up on the objectives. This is where prisms come in handy. Nothing takes out big globs of troops like pie plates. Late game tank shock will also be helpful, but mostly for pushing the troops away. The tactic is fairly simple. Move the first tank right on top of the objective (or just to one side depending on how the enemy is arranged) so that the enemy must move away from the objective. Next, tank shock with a second tank right next to the first, so that the enemy is pushed even further from the objective. Repeat as many times as you have tanks. Even if you don’t break them, you can push them off the objective and then shoot them (assuming you can still disembark).

Now, if the eldar player has to rely on the dire avengers killing off the troops that are at the objective, then you are correct in saying that it’s a lost cause. However, I’m not convinced that it will be necessary.

Toreador wrote:I keep hearing how fortune is going to make eldar tanks unstoppable, but isn't it only 6" in range? Doesn't sound like that is going to be an easy, or sure thing.

And if people start using it more, there are going to more psychic hoods appearing. That also puts a hit on it being a sure thing. All it takes is failing it once and you have a problem.

Eldar psy powers have been very powerful ever since 3ed edition (well ok, ever since 1st but that’s a bit out of context now) and while psychic hoods have been popular, I don’t think they will be any more so than they are now. Another point to note is that fortune happens before the movement phase, so if a hood does shut it down, the eldar player knows this and will be able to move the tank to a safe location (like behind other tanks that did get fortune) to minimize the risk of it getting killed. As far as the 6” thing goes, it isn’t hard to work out. A farseer on a bike can move faster than the tanks will be able to in 5th (and in 4th he can move exactly as fast as the tanks). Even if the farseer is on foot, it’s not like the tanks are going to be running all over the board. They are going to be sitting back in a pile of 4+ terrain somewhere, so staying within 6” shouldn’t be difficult (particularly with an IC that can run/fleet).


All in all, I think that this tactic is going to be viable, but not a whole lot of fun to play with or against. It is also prone to quick failure if the eldar opponent gets off a few lucky shots early in the game.

It's also not going to capture many objectives.

Intact buildings seem to be the only thing that actually block line of sight now, with even forests being pure line of sight, so hiding those tanks is a lot harder not to mention the dire avengers. Yes, you can sit in the woods which I hear is a decent inv save now, but then you have to decide if fortune saves them, or the falcon. Skimmers also never block line of sight to anything behind them do they? Much harder to position said vehicles behind others then. Having up to 5 vehicles, and only two Farseers means that there are always going to be vulnerable vehicles. It will be a good game of cat and mouse. Watch out for drop pods and other deep strikers too. If they can land and position themselves in good spots they can get great shots on either farseers or non fortuned vehicles,... and in the rear. Also all infiltrators and scouts could also pose this same problem. Sitting in the backfield may not always be a great thing in the new edition.

I think that if the expectation is that Eldar forces will run with fortuned Falcons, a lot more anti psyker tools will make an appearance. Always glancing you can do nothing about. Fortune you can. It will also stop last turn land grabs. Running the falcon out to capture an objective in the last few turns won't be near as nasty as a 5+ save isn't near the invulnerability.

The fewer units you have on the table also makes it a lot easier for me to pick out said Farseer on bike.

Now don't take what I am saying wrong. I like the tactics you are coming up with. I am coming up with counters for them, which is something you can't do in 4th ed vs the eldar vehicles. In my opinion this is what makes it a much better game. It's going to be a big game of cat and mouse between you and your opponent, which is what a good game is about. Gives me hope....

I just thought of something else interesting. Reaper with missle launcher exarch ignores cover saves doesn't he..... wow. Might actually be a useful option now.

Toreador wrote: Skimmers also never block line of sight to anything behind them do they?

In 5th they do. Which is a large part of why this tactic works. You mostly only need to expose 2-3 tanks at a time so if one gets shaken, it just moves back and another moves up to shoot. They can then switch places again later as needed. It ends up being the vehicle equilevent of the tactical two step. In addition to keeping the tanks safe, the fact that you can't shoot through them (or their wrecks should they get destroyed) also means that the farseers are perfectly safe from anything save indirect fire or deep strikers that manage to land in a very good position.

As far as last turn objective grabbing goes, you are correct to state that this army will have some difficulty with it. With only a few scoring units it may be tough, but it may still work depending on how it plays out on the battlefield. In games where there are 2 objectives (one in each deployment zone) this army will more or less be ensured of keeping theirs and more or less be ensured of not getting the enemy's so it comes down to victory points, which it is very likely to win. Although a last turn contestment of the enemy objective might be possible. In games where there are several objectives around the board, this build will probably struggle. In kill point missions, this army will probably do very well since it functions as a denial army. So 2/3 of the missions look to be rather favorable to it.

I just thought of something else interesting. Reaper with missle launcher exarch ignores cover saves doesn't he..... wow. Might actually be a useful option now.

If given crack shot, yes. You make a rather interesting point there. I'll have to give that some consideration.

Phoenix, please play 5th before commenting.

Most of what you've said is worthless.

You CAN shoot other tanks hiding behind other tanks, as all you need is to be able to see part of it.

Sure, that other tank gets a cover save--but so what?

4+ save in a forest with a re-roll...or that tank in the back with a 4+ save and no re-roll. Hmmm, guess I'll shoot the guy with no re-roll.

If you really think you can tank shock someone off an objective, let me enlighten you as to the stupidity this tactic incurs when actually applied.

I move my Land Raider onto the objective, with a scoring troop unit inside it.

TADA! I win. You cannot tank shock me off the objective, and if you don't have lance weapons on your serpent you aren't going to shoot me off it either.

If it's a LRC run by templars, well, pray you don't play a mission with objectives.

This army build sucks, btw. It's totally worthless as an army, as 'denial' armies have been nerfed to gak--and against good players, never worked anyway.

Play the mission, not your opponent's army; when the opponent has a force not able to play the mission.

It's simple, it's easy to remember: Do it.

And the Farseer on bike will need to be in a bike squadron or anyone can pick them out.

Independent characters that have not joined a
unit can be targeted as normal, being separate
units.

Very good target for those long range weapons otherwise. Heck, good target even in a bike squad, especially with the new improved rending snipers.

I didn't see anything in the leaked rules saying they don't, but I wonder if scoring units in vehicles will count or not.

Toreador wrote:And the Farseer on bike will need to be in a bike squadron or anyone can pick them out.

Independent characters that have not joined a
unit can be targeted as normal, being separate
units.

Unless I missed something (and that's possible) being on a bike doesn't make you any more targatable than being on foot other than being a larger target for line of sight purposes. It isn't like being a monsterous creature where you can always be seen over things in front of you (size 3 for 4th edition purposes). So as long as he move up to within 2" of a squad, he's considered to have joined it and can't be picked out. The other option would be to just stay behind a tank. Drawing line of sight to him at that point should prove to be difficult (but rewarding if you can pull it off).

I didn't see anything in the leaked rules saying they don't, but I wonder if scoring units in vehicles will count or not.

I was pokeing around it a bit too and I didn't notice anything of that sort either. If that's the case and they don't reinstitute the "if it's in a transport, then its off the board" idea, a transport full of troops can capture an objective.

The one thing I didn't see was the protections about being the closest unit like in the current edition. So if your Dire Avengers are in the vehicles you have a very vulnerable Farseer as he can be shot at just like any other unit. If he is next to the Dire Avenger squad, they are going to be a prime target AND they are going to be much harder to hide. Whirlwinds and such will love those targets.

They automatically join any unit they are within 2" of, but with only six dire avengers in each unit he is going to be getting allocated hits and or making panic checks quickly.

Can an IC sit with Harlequins and gain protection from The Veil of Tears? Seems odd if he can, but if so there is protection, but again you are really limiting what you can do with the harlequins by having to keep them near tanks, and limit the mobility of the bike farseer as he has to get near the tanks that need it.

Bout the bikeseer: I'm used to having things hunt my bikeseer. I use mobility, JSJ and terrain to stay out of LOS as much as possible. He Fortunes, hits a vehicle or two, and then joins in a combat with the (infantry) unit that he's Fortuning in the last couple of rounds. He dies every once in a while, but pays for himself several times over whether he lives or dies.

Pheonix wrote:

Savnock wrote:I see that you get this, but your follow-up in the form of transported troops isn't nasty enough. The plant to dump a small quantity of troops on objectives is hindered by letting the enemy set up dense units of infantry all over the objectives while your skimmers stand off and get shaken. Even with a Tank Shock on those infantry (and Tank Shock will be more risky than before), unless the enemy falls back (not likely) your transported infantry won't have anywhere to bail out that can score. Again, this is assuming the enemy has troops over/around the objectives because your shooting has been mostly neutralized in previous turns.

Again, look at the numbers. With it taking 9-12 anti tank weapons a turn to shake an eldar tank, I don’t think it’s going to be a big hindrance on them. Not many armies are going to be fielding that kind of fire power. The enemy will, however, be very likely to have lots of troops pilling up on the objectives. This is where prisms come in handy. Nothing takes out big globs of troops like pie plates.

...Now, if the eldar player has to rely on the dire avengers killing off the troops that are at the objective, then you are correct in saying that it’s a lost cause. However, I’m not convinced that it will be necessary.

I agree with you that the Prisms will do much of the thinning at range. I just think the DA's fire and occupation will be important enough that two units of 6 aren't enough. Tank Shock and Prisms can't do the job of holding the objective, only resilient Troops can do so. If they can add to the firepower dislodging the enemy from the objective too, that's a good thing.

And where do you get the 9-12 antitank weapons to shake? In 4+ cover half of shots will still get through, shaking at least if they gleance/pen. Even with Fortune (which will be in high demand elsewhere, and no more than 2 tanks most times), that's still pretty good odds to shake the tank. 3 autocannons or 4 missile launchers could do it no problem, couldn't they?

Late game tank shock will also be helpful, but mostly for pushing the troops away. The tactic is fairly simple. Move the first tank right on top of the objective (or just to one side depending on how the enemy is arranged) so that the enemy must move away from the objective. Next, tank shock with a second tank right next to the first, so that the enemy is pushed even further from the objective. Repeat as many times as you have tanks. Even if you don’t break them, you can push them off the objective and then shoot them (assuming you can still disembark).

Ladies and gentlemen, the Rhino Rush of 5th edition has reared it's ugly head. Everyone with tanks will be doing this. This must be why Death or Glory got nastier. It's also why Troops with decent anti-tank weapons will be better at holding objectives.

Falcons look to be less ideal... but what about a normal farseer (now that perils got less unfriendly) with a full squad of War Walkers in the trees? Depending on walker load out, it's cheaper than a tricked out falcon... and with perils less devastating, you can afford to use the cheaper farseer.

4 missile launchers shots at BS4 = less than 4 hits.

You need 4 hits on average to get through the fortuned cover. That is also not accounting for shots that ping off the armour. I think you'd need more like 7 shots with missile launchers to reliably get a roll on the damage table.

Umm you are missing the point people. The crux of the army is using the tanks as LOS blocking very hard to kill things, castling in a corner on reaction and combining nasty shooting with the ability to run/jump scoring units out on the objectives towards the end game after pummelling their forces for 4-5 turns.

True there are things that will make it hard to achieve such as missions that require you to cross a large portion of the board. I think phoenix summed it up well. It seems to cover a good portion of the mission array.

Saying that you can always shoot tanks behind other tanks is getting into another argument altogether. I firmly beleive this kind of gaming approach leads to the encouragement of using modeling to your advantage. e.g. Person a) I can see 1/400th of your serpent through your obviously deployed line of falcon tanks! Person b) Sucks it up for this game, goes home and re-models his falcons slightly to become a solid wall when placed next to each other.

I beleive that person a) is being a bint here, person b) is not being "cheesy" by using modeling to his advantage...he is using modeling to avoid bints. I think that there is an arbitrary limit to this modelling to your advantage but i always beleived the magic cylinder approach was much cleaner than letting people do whatever they like.

I'll repeat that I don't place any value in those easy solutions (e.g.) my black templar landraider brings all the boys to the yard. How many black templar armies are used in the tourney scene? How many of them bring the upgrade to the landraider? How does it stop firedragons? Whether bringing prisms to the wall or falcons(with lances or no) you do have some anti tank options there. (Although I admit that this falls into the same category as the Tau and cron disadvantage for this example).

Toreador - Having up to 5 vehicles is very easy. If you are deploying on reaction into a corner, 3 falcon hulls will block los to a couple of serpents hiding behind them.

Sure there will be situations where you'll get shot. I'm not saying that there won't be, but in theory you should be ok for 2 or 3 turns at the start of the game. Hey if you're thinking that something isn't going to get shot by something else in a game of 40k you're living in a fantasy world...hehe pun!

This isn't a falcon spam list from 4th edition where the rules are stupid and you are at an inherent advantage from taking it. It combines several tactics and needs good decisions made through the game to react to the opponent.

I never said you could always shoot tanks behind other tanks.

If you can SEE the tank, even from a oblique angle to the side...you can shoot it. All it gets is a cover save.

There's nothing in the rules against this, this is simply how the rules read now.

i.e. You can setup a line of Falcons, and I can get down to models eye view and see right past it. Why don't you give it a whirl, and see how Falcons stacked hull to hull don't block LOS to other Falcons behind them except for directly ahead.

Most Eldar armies have Falcons. If you can't deliver them into short range, those mighty meltaguns don't do squat. You might cripple a LR, but kill it? Highly unlikely with 5 meltaguns that don't get double dice. Even with double dice, it's nowhere near as easy to do as it is in 4th edition.

If you believe you can survive against a shooty Eldar army with 1 fortuned tank from a jetbike seer...you're crazy.

Falcon hulls do not block LOS to wave serpents. You have a turret, and it's easy to see.

Thanks Stelek,

That was a very reasonable post and well backed up.

So the Wave Serpents hiding tactic would be out.

Can we still assume then that the use of the 3 falcons or prisms can block LOS to the shooty bike/infantry squads behind?

I posted originally with the idea of having eldrad + farseer on foot hiding in harlequins (Whether several smaller units with death jesters or a larger unit would be up to the individual). This wall tactic is used to let the eldar player choose when and what the shootyness hiding behind the wall get to see/shoot and get reciprocally seen and shot by. Once the tank hunting units are targetted and annihilated the eldar player becomes freer to decide to up the output of those tanks using guide.

Stelek - I think you got this as being the ideology behind it when you posted the "Its annoying" remark.

Savnock - Yes the falcon/prism shooting is a bonus but if you look at phoenix's examples of the kind of shooting requirements merely to get a roll on the tank damage table, you will be able to start to rely on getting at least 1 or 2 tanks shooting per round.

I'm happy discussing the pro's and cons of the farseer on bike but as I stated before, taking it means you'll have to play the army a certain way (Basically becoming a total denial army which has its own inherent problems in terms of completing objectives.

It's nice to spread the discussion around to take in all points for something interesting to do.

The concept you stated works fine, and it's a staple of 5th edition (I mean...3rd edition...2nd edition...ok the Jervis-wins and AndyChambers loses hahahaha edition).

It is not impossible to see Jetbikes behind Wave Serpents. The problem is the curve on each side, and if there is any elevation for the enemy. Either one and it's quite easy to see you. Is it possible to shoot you? Usually not (see covering fire) but on occasion it is possible.

Can infantry see you from close range and shoot you? Most of the time, if you have everything on the right size bases...not a chance they'll see you.

My bikes are a little higher than normal, but I can still rush forward behind a falcon screen and hide my bike council + spears. They can then in turn jump over and wack anything they need to in the next turn.

However, it can backfire. When you lose a vehicle, it gets treated as if it's 'landed'. So if someone runs up and pops part of your 'wall', the stuff behind it will suddenly be visible. Ground troops, not so much, but jetbikes surely will be.

Savnock wrote:And where do you get the 9-12 antitank weapons to shake? In 4+ cover half of shots will still get through, shaking at least if they gleance/pen. Even with Fortune (which will be in high demand elsewhere, and no more than 2 tanks most times), that's still pretty good odds to shake the tank. 3 autocannons or 4 missile launchers could do it no problem, couldn't they?

Marines shooting 9 las cannons.

9 shots, need 3+ to hit (2/3 of shots hit) = 6 hits

Strength 9 vs AV 12 needs 3 to get past armor (2/3 of hits get past armor) = 4 damaging hits

4+ cover save (1/2 of damaging hits get though cover) = 2 damaging hits get past cover save

4+ cover save again due to fortune (1/2 of initial damaging hits get past second cover save) = 1 actual damage roll against a fortuned vehicle in 4+ cover from 9 bs 4 las cannon shots

Working out the same process with missile launchers takes 12 shots because they glance on a 4+ rather than 3+. Auto cannons work out the same as las cannons (twice as many shots but half as likely to get though the armor) however the down side of autocannons is it is much harder to penetrate with them than it is with las cannons so against falcons and prisms, they are not as good.

Of course, one shot can take down a skimmer.

Funny thing, my old Falcons were very vulnerable and died every game. In 5th, they're back to being shot at repeatedly until they're dead.

Of course, that's because I'm not running 1200 points of 'Save The Tanks' army since it isn't very effective--just annoying. You deal with it and win the mission, and who cares.