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So my illustrious friend pointed out to me I should show how you can beat (or at least minimize) the deep strike defense...

So I'll start with a Demon army, and make my way to a drop pod army.

Demons need to protect their troops. Sure everything else is either gonna kill enemy troops, like bloodcrushers will...and the other slots are all about utility. Troops in 5th is what wins you games (because with the need to bring troops to win SOME missions, everyone will bring more troops), and the more popular ones (letters, ettes) are fragile vs shooting.

Alot of players believe they can 'screen' with their plaguebearers. It's a little too convenient.

You can't screen with MC since they're too small and forming a wall is asking to lose a MC to a bad scatter. lol However if you DO get a bad starting roll and have to drop the MC, you CAN form a wall. At which point grinder should sit his fat ass in the back and fire templates at the other guy. This way, you can still protect your troops. With a icon you can avoid scattering your troops and they can line up right behind the MC wall.

So what to screen with? Soulgrinder. Just one will do. Drop him near a terrain piece, and drop your infantry behind him. If you've played demons, and aren't using the fast attack choices--you're going to lose alot of games. So get the fast attack choices. I don't personally think much of the demon army, but if you want to kill enemy troops they're the ones you want. Anyway you use the fast attack choices to tie the enemy up. Yes, they can kill alot of stuff on their own. They also get owned by good assault troops because there aren't enough of them. That's what your troops are for. If they can't be shot at, you're in a good position to move them into the other guys army. Especially if you can tie up AND pull his army towards you with your fast attack troops.

So imagine it like this:

Wave 1, troops/fast attack + soulgrinder. Vehicles are resilient in 5th, and if you don't get a pen 6 vs him he'll screen everything a demon player puts down except MC.
Speaking of MC...that's usually Wave 2 + a troop or two (mostly for dropping the troop on your own objective).

So why do I not recommend plaguebearers? They don't kill anything. Top tier assault troops mow them down, especially rending troops.

Anyway soulgrinder is a huge model, and odds are you have it and have been wondering what good 1 is.

Toss in 4 Tzeentch MC, Demonettes/Letters for troops and crushers/seekers for fast attack and with some tactics you can squeak past the deep strike defense, but it's going to be an uphill battle for you if you are both equally skilled.

Deep strike defense vs demons hurts an already questionable army, but at least you aren't totally hosed if you play cautiously.

Playing aggressively against the deep strike defense will usually see you tabled as quickly as you can put stuff down.

Good to see you were up for the challenge. Should probably point out that you can counter most bad scatter to still screen by running after the DS - which can be done in 5th.

Will test this. Was personally thinking of two defilers utilizing the 40K "rule of two."

stjohn70 wrote:Good to see you were up for the challenge. Should probably point out that you can counter most bad scatter to still screen by running after the DS - which can be done in 5th.

Right, so you move soulgrinder and put your troops where you want them.

Screening ettes with bearers means they get a 4+ save instead of a 5+ and they still die in droves to shooting. I know I'll shoot ettes and letters before I shoot stupid plaguebearers, who die nicely to CC characters who hopefully have a bike or a jump pack to get out there for a meet n'greet.

I think having real screening where you cannot shoot light weapons at troops is what people need, because if the player running the deep strike defense has setup properly there should be lots of light weapons pointed your way.

Grinder prevents shooting by blocking LOS, and he's really hard to attrition away because of his plethora of weapons. You can only hope someone wrecks him, then not worry about it. lol

I didn't mean that you could screen better with bearers - I meant on the chance that your soulgrinder wasn't providing the screening you were hoping for. As in, not contradicting you - but complimenting the stated tactic.

And with Pods in a tournament, the way to beat this tactic is to read the scenario.

If somebody has really packed it in tight, you can drop any truly close combat forces very close and use the pod to screen. If they collapse on the following turn, leaving a killing ground between you, subsequent drops can continue to pack your opponent in while still give cover to maneuver behind.

Targeting intelligently can also help a great deal - even if they've castled, killing off a leman russ, or the IG commander's squad, or another high pay-off target can still make it worthwhile. Also, if your podding force has a large number of marines, then you may be able to weather the firepower and still have an effective force. Situationally dependent.

Now on to drop pod armies.

How do you defeat a anti-deep strike defense?

Well, the first thing to remember is if there's a castle of vehicles around it...I hope you have some dreads with lascannons so you can drop at range and kill them.

You cannot reliably kill vehicles in 5th so they're removed (to give you clear LOS), not without melta weapons...which plays directly into your opponents hands, for as soon as you drop near him and spend your time shooting rhinos or stunning skimmers you're going to lose ALOT of your army on his next turn when his troops move into rapid fire range and his assault troops come out and spank what's left.

If there's a castle of normal troops, you have less issues. You can drop pod right onto someone and survive.

Since you really want to minimize the return fire you are going to take, but drop pods tend to blow up and get removed in 5th (open topped rules, being close to the enemy means meltagun fun) so using them to block LOS is difficult at best.

So how to do it against a troop based army sitting back waiting for you to arrive?

At list design. You need to bring as many units as you can to the party. My SW army for example has 6 troops and 4 dreads in it. That's 10 drop pods, so roughly half should arrive. The troops kill troops, and the dreads kill tanks. Simple as that. With 5 pods, you can pretty much guarantee where you are going to land. Your first pod marks the spot. Use smarts though, and remember the DA pod rules will probably be the C: SM rules. You can deviate OVER your own guys now...and end up in a bad spot. So don't just park next to a friendly pod or unit and hope you don't roll high.

Do remember to block off large shooty units from LOS to anything but pods if you can. Don't be afraid to just shoot the sacrificial units if there is a huge amount of firepower waiting for you. The way you do this is by dropping a wall of pods down perpendicular to his lines and putting your marines on the other side of it. This might mean a unit can't shoot, but it's better to not be shot than be annihilated. Attrition the enemy away a little bit, be in a good spot to take his charge and rapid firing; and prepare for your second wave to arrive.

It's not going to be easy, but you can generally pick and choose where you actually want to fight with a drop pod army. It is stating the obvious, but if you feel you cannot win--drop pod away from him in an unexpected place and see what you can do to his army. Remember you can drop pod and run in 5th, which does change things quite a bit. Once C: SM is released, it'll be alot more friendly to run a pod army. You'll see.

stjohn70 wrote:I didn't mean that you could screen better with bearers - I meant on the chance that your soulgrinder wasn't providing the screening you were hoping for. As in, not contradicting you - but complimenting the stated tactic.

Ah I get it now. Running helps when all you wanna do is hide. For both demons and drop pods. lol

@Papanurgle, were any of your games close the year you won the Gladiator?

Darrian

The second game was close. At least close in the sense of trying to get max points. The other three were not - due to opponents, having 8/8 pods come in on turn 2, or just the scenario.

The game that worried me the most prior to turn 2 was the last one. That would have been a bear with Word Bearers castled up. However, he went first and his demons mostly popped out, allowing 8/8 pods to come in and get the first shot. Once I got pod #8, I felt pretty good about the game...

Legitimate question (at least I feel it is): How does a Soulgrinder block LOS in 5th? If everything is true LOS, it is pretty easy to draw LOS past a Soul Grinder. Is there a rule or are we assuming the 'magic cylinder' with regards to this model.

@PapaNurgle, that Wordbearers guy is a friend of mine, Charlie Nichols. I am playing him next week in our league finals. I hope my dice are as hot as yours were when you played him. He still whines about that beatdown you laid on him.

Darrian

Sarigar wrote:Legitimate question (at least I feel it is): How does a Soulgrinder block LOS in 5th? If everything is true LOS, it is pretty easy to draw LOS past a Soul Grinder. Is there a rule or are we assuming the 'magic cylinder' with regards to this model.

It's easy to draw LOS past the biggest model in the game, sans possibly the Monolith?

Please show me your demonettes, your soulgrinder, and your marines that can see each other past that big defiler model in between...

I think we're getting into the joyous LOS issue. Does the area under the defiler/between legs block LOS? If not then there could be a problem (I'm assuming thats the issue anyway). Personally I look at the defiler's footprint and see where it covers the same space as approx. 3 carnifexes being used for similar effect.

Exactly. This is a big unanswered question unless someone has the final text of the 5th ed rules. Which I haven’t seen anyone admit to yet.

and besides, all this talk of LOS rules and whether or not you can see my daemons is harshing my fun you over-competitive rule lawyers! Can't we all just D6 it?

Mannahnin wrote:Exactly. This is a big unanswered question unless someone has the final text of the 5th ed rules. Which I haven’t seen anyone admit to yet.

I keep admitting to it.

Somehow saying the same thing over and over again makes it less true.

Hmmm...the DakkaEffect?

jfrazell wrote:I think we're getting into the joyous LOS issue. Does the area under the defiler/between legs block LOS? If not then there could be a problem (I'm assuming thats the issue anyway). Personally I look at the defiler's footprint and see where it covers the same space as approx. 3 carnifexes being used for similar effect.

If I have to I'll attach a prosthetic to the frigging thing so you can't see under it.

Yes, it'll be 3 carnifexes wide.

That's how we roll in the Eye.

The local GW near me has a copy of the actual 5th ed book. (St. Louis Mills GW) I will check tonight when I am up there and report back on the LOS issue, but it seems to me with a laser pointer, it would be pretty easy to see past a soul grinder's legs.

How is the Soul Grinder Good doesnt it have an armValue JW ? ? ? Cause 3 Rockets or 3 Autocannons from a guard Heavy weapon team could take it down JW ?

And your Leg Idea well if LOS is and Issue then just use a laser Pen and what ever see thur it you can shot it.... And even if you made it that big and if it does have a Arm. Value then 1 Rocket can kill it.

Stelek wrote:

jfrazell wrote:I think we're getting into the joyous LOS issue. Does the area under the defiler/between legs block LOS? If not then there could be a problem (I'm assuming thats the issue anyway). Personally I look at the defiler's footprint and see where it covers the same space as approx. 3 carnifexes being used for similar effect.

If I have to I'll attach a prosthetic to the frigging thing so you can't see under it.

Yes, it'll be 3 carnifexes wide.

That's how we roll in the Eye.

Hah!!! beat you to it. Putting my two shaggoths on defiler sized 'bases.' The only LOS my opponent will see is a wave of Tzeentchian terrain coming at them.

Go using Modeling to your advantage lol GO GW !!!!!!!!

Stelek wrote:

Sarigar wrote:Legitimate question (at least I feel it is): How does a Soulgrinder block LOS in 5th? If everything is true LOS, it is pretty easy to draw LOS past a Soul Grinder. Is there a rule or are we assuming the 'magic cylinder' with regards to this model.

It's easy to draw LOS past the biggest model in the game, sans possibly the Monolith?

Please show me your demonettes, your soulgrinder, and your marines that can see each other past that big defiler model in between...

Well, I look at my Defiler (as I don't have a Soulgrinder, but the chassis is the same) and I can clearly see under the body of the defiler to the models on the other side. I ask b/c all I hear about is true LOS in 5th edition. Now, if I didn't glue the legs to the body and have it 'sink' down like I've seen some models, then it blocks LOS from underneath. However, I modeled mine in a similar fashion to GW IE: Not sitting on the ground.

Stelek: Next time, try answering a question rather than deflecting it with another question. It serves no purpose and wastes time and space.

Im just curious.. is the advice to model a soulgrinder so you cant see under or inbetween it?

No. Alot of people think you can draw LOS under a defiler.

I disagree. At least, that's not how MY copy of the rules reads. Others may disagree, but if it ends up being true..

Put large grass on a very big plate and stick it under him.

People like myself are speculating about real LOS compounded with the fact GW will soon be supplying a pen light (of sorts) to help determine LOS. To date, I've not read anywhere (from those who have read rulebook, not PDF) that what I'm asking is prohibited or made to be an exception. If we can fire through window openings in ruins through area terrain, I don't see a big difference than firing under the legs of a Defiler/Soulgrinder. Both require true LOS and both can be drawn from the firing model to the target, even with a penlight.

Creative modelling to get an ingame advantage is not sound advice. While it may, technically speaking, be legal, if I play against someone in a tourney who is doing this (like your own example to block LOS), they should not be suprised when they get a lower than expected sportsmanship score.

If it's a pickup game and the creative modelling is really getting out of hand with in game advantages, they shouldn't be suprised if I decide not to play them again.

Or just get thrown out, since many tournaments consider it illegal.

Whew, on the LOS thing and the soulgrinder/defiler, I think people should check out yak's LOS article. Count me with the faction that is OK shooting over the ""shoulder" of the defiler, but totally not OK with people trying to shoot under its legs. Under the legs is lame people, and it doesn't matter what GW says about it.

Biz, none of the folks here are in doubt about what the current (4th edition) rules say. The speculation is about what exactly the 5th edition rules are going to say.

Like Mannahnin pointed out, 5th edition LOS is what is the crux of the matter.

To take it a bit further, I'd find it even more difficult to fire through a window slot at someone. Putting your silhoette in a window is a huge no-go when training for urban combat. But, the game seems to be going in the direction that if you can see a model, you can shoot at it (cover saves as applicable).

I'm not debating the pros/cons of the LOS rules, but is there an actual rule that gives exception to actual LOS- as in shooting underneath the Defiler/Soulgrinder despite being able to draw LOS.