Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am thinking about building a Grey Knight army and my buddy suggested I get Razorbacks instead of Rhinos. I looked in the Daemonhunter Codex and nowhere does it meantion Razorbacks which does seem kind of odd since they are supposed to get the best gear that the Imperium has to offer. My buddy says that since they are pretty much the same as SM's they get Razorbacks but I'm not too sure?

Anyone know for sure if they can use 'em?

Grey Knights in Power Armor do not have access to any Transports, unless you purchase a Lander Raider as a Heavy Support choice as well.

(as an aside, something to consider with 5th edition is the fact that your Grey Knights will at least be able to "borrow" your Stormtroopers' Chimeras/Rhinos)

codex DH is an individual codex from codex SM, so if razorbacks arent included in there then you cant buy them for your grey knights...

However

with the new rules for transports in 5th, you may take some allied space marines, buy them a razor back and put your grey knights in it.

OT but, you cannot take Allied SMs with a Main GK force, but you can supplement a Main SM force with GKs. It's a weird rule, but it is also nice way to get good Heavy Support like Predators but still keep your PAGK as the 2 Troops and 1 Fast Attack allies are permitted. and then borrow a SM's Rhino/Razorback.

Razorbacks suck...especially as a concept for GK.

Stick with LR.

Smashotron wrote:Grey Knights in Power Armor do not have access to any Transports, unless you purchase a Lander Raider as a Heavy Support choice as well.

(as an aside, something to consider with 5th edition is the fact that your Grey Knights will at least be able to "borrow" your Stormtroopers' Chimeras/Rhinos)

Certainly, you meant "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" (Terminator Armor) and not "Power Armor."
Yes?

Granted, I haven't cracked my DH codex in a while, but I seem to recall the ability to put them in Rhinos.


They do not, however, have access to razorbacks.


Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:
Certainly, you meant "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" (Terminator Armor) and not "Power Armor."
Yes?

Granted, I haven't cracked my DH codex in a while, but I seem to recall the ability to put them in Rhinos.
Eric

You are incorrect, no Grey Knight in any sort of armor can take a dedicated transport.

Crack that book open again and you won't find yourself a PAGK Transport option at all. That is why PAGK can be taken as Fast Attack to teleport in, a technique that is ruined in 5th edition since teleport homers are now rare and that Fast Attack choice PAGK won't be able to claim objectives like the Troops choice guys that took the time to walk across the board.

For survivability I'll be putting my GK in Stormies Chimeras and popping smoke before dumping out and firing next turn. Takes the unit to combat safer and fast than 4th edition.

Excuse, how are teleport homers rare because of 5E?

It's the same damn book...

Stelek wrote:Excuse, how are teleport homers rare because of 5E?

It's the same damn book...

Fair point. They might be rare for vanilla SMs but DH still have as many as always/

What I think he meant by them being rare was before (in 4e) there was no reason to go with more than 2 'Troops' units of grey knights. If you brought 5 units of the PAGK in total you bring 3 in fast attack and you have the option of deep striking them or not....they wind up able to do basically the same thing.

Now (in 5e) if you want some units that are able to claim objectives its harder...or rarer...to bring these 'teleport' units. They cost the same but cannot claim objectives, deepstriking is'nt much of a tradeoff for that being that it isnt very reliable.

I meant that, based off the DA and BA codexes as a relection of what we might see in 5th ed SM, Veteran Sergeants and Characters no longer have the option in the new, simplified yet restrictive army listings to purchase themselves a teleport homer.

Example: I run Ultramarines with Allied GK. 2 SM Troops base and a Jump Chaplain with teleport homer. Then 2 Assault Squads with a teleport homer each. Fill in the rest with fire support and Predators. This allows me three different locations to safely teleport in PAGK and TAGK, plus Grand Master.

With the way I forsee 5th ed SM being, those possibilities with not exsist. Also, Deadshane1 hit the other part on the nose. But ultimately, the rarity of teleport homers is my new issue. And yes, I know Ravenwing slaps them on the nose of every biker or whatever, but you don't see that helping every other SM force.

kadun wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
Certainly, you meant "Tactical Dreadnought Armor" (Terminator Armor) and not "Power Armor."
Yes?

Granted, I haven't cracked my DH codex in a while, but I seem to recall the ability to put them in Rhinos.
Eric

You are incorrect, no Grey Knight in any sort of armor can take a dedicated transport.

Actually I'm looking at the codex right now and yes GK can use Rhinos. The only restriction in the Daemonhunter Codex is "The Rhino can carry up to ten models but may not carry any models wearing Terminator Armour" end quote

Stelek wrote:
Razorbacks suck...especially as a concept for GK.

Stick with LR.

Um...ok. You're gonna have to explain that one. How does a Razorback not work as a concept for GK? It's hard enough already to get Lascannons, why not put it on a transport that I'm gonna use anyway?

It doesn't say they can't fit inside the rhino. But the PAGK entry also doesn't say that one may take a rhino as a dedicated transport. Since other foot units that may be transported have their options explicitly stated in their entries, and the PAGK has no options, they may not take a rhino unless they car jack your Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

Aeddon. PAGK can't use rhinos or razorbacks in the DH codex as they don't have a transport option in their entries.

The stormtrooper entry below them has a transport option and MAY do so.

In 5th ed, though, nothing will stop you giving stormies a rhino and then using it to transport PAGKs around, though.

CrimsonTurkey wrote:It doesn't say they can't fit inside the rhino. But the PAGK entry also doesn't say that one may take a rhino as a dedicated transport. Since other foot units that may be transported have their options explicitly stated in their entries, and the PAGK has no options, they may not take a rhino unless they car jack your Inquisitorial Stormtroopers.

chromedog wrote:Aeddon. PAGK can't use rhinos or razorbacks in the DH codex as they don't have a transport option in their entries.

The stormtrooper entry below them has a transport option and MAY do so.

In 5th ed, though, nothing will stop you giving stormies a rhino and then using it to transport PAGKs around, though.

Ok so if you say that than you also have to say that GK taking a LR fills a heavy support slot. Here is what the book says in the transport section...

Rhino
The Rhino can carry up to ten models but may not carry any models wearing Terminator Armour

Land Raider
The Land Raider may carry up to ten models


And in the Heavy Support Section...

Grey Knight Land Raider
The Land Raider may carry up to ten Grey Knights in power armour or five Grey Knight Terminators

Grey Knight Land Raider Crusader
A Crusader may carry up to 15 Grey Knights in power armour or 8 Grey Knight Terminators


So what you're saying is that GK in a LR or LRC can only be taken as a Heavy Support choose? I've seen quite a few army lists on this site that would tend to disagree with you on that. So which is it?

And technically there is nowhere in the Grey Knight section that says Grey Knights can even take transports! It only states which transports are capable of carrying them.

First of all, take a look at Inquisitorial Stormtroopers entry on page 29 of Codex Daemonhunters and you'll see the following:

Transport vehicle: The Inquisitorial Stormtroopers may be mounted in a Rhino at an additional cost of +X points or a Chimera at +Y points (see Transports on page 30).

Do you see anything resembling that in any of the Grey Knight entries in the codex? If not, then they have no option for a dedicated transport.

Yes, I see that. Thank you for reiterating my last point.

For the love of the Emperor! How are you not read what everyone else is reading in this topic?!

1) PAGKs do not have a "Transport" option in their entry. SM, IST, SOB, et cetera, et cetera all have "Transport" in their listing. That is why Transport vehicles are listed; for the IST and INQ + Retinue.

2) Yes, if you want 10 PAGKs in a LR or a LRC you have to take the 10 PAGKs as a Troops choice and the LR/LRC as a Heavy Support choice. Thus is the curse/downfall of the DH codex.

3) In a week, it will matter less because (as we keep repeating) 5th edition will allow you to share Transport vehicles within reason.

4) To explain Stelek's point, lets look at a Razorback:

FACTS
-it's job is to transport 6 men as fast as possible
-it possesses a main (non defensive) weapon
-it has the same armour value as a Rhino

PROS
-ZOMG! twin linked lascannon!!

CONS
-you can't fire your awesome weapon if you're actually moving the car
-your Rhino armour + awesome weapon will make you a quick target
-6 guys? with combat squads, its 5 men.

done

Because you keep contradicting yourselves! Look, you just did it again!

Ghaz wrote:First of all, take a look at Inquisitorial Stormtroopers entry on page 29 of Codex Daemonhunters and you'll see the following:


Transport vehicle: The Inquisitorial Stormtroopers may be mounted in a Rhino at an additional cost of +X points or a Chimera at +Y points (see Transports on page 30).

Do you see anything resembling that in any of the Grey Knight entries in the codex? If not, then they have no option for a dedicated transport.

And now you say...

Smashotron wrote:2) Yes, if you want 10 PAGKs in a LR or a LRC you have to take the 10 PAGKs as a Troops choice and the LR/LRC as a Heavy Support choice. Thus is the curse/downfall of the DH codex.

So let's look at this...first the GK's can't have any transports whatsoever and now they can have them but the GK's and their transport take up two completely different force slots at the same time???

I am not trying to be arguementative but I have only been playing for a year and I still consider myself pretty new to this. Now I'd like to pick up a second army and I want to know what my options really are but instead of a straight answer I get conflicting ones.

No. A 'Transport' is bought as a squad upgrade. Just because a vehicle can transport models does not make it a 'Transport'. The second quote of yours never once says anything about a 'Transport', does it? No.

Smashotron wrote:...if you want 10 PAGKs in a LR or a LRC...

So you're saying that if you put 10 PAGK in a LR or a LRC than the LR and LRC do not count as transports? WTF?!

Aeddon wrote:

Smashotron wrote:...if you want 10 PAGKs in a LR or a LRC...

So you're saying that if you put 10 PAGK in a LR or a LRC than the LR and LRC do not count as transports? WTF?!

Look I'll spell it out for you since you apparently cannot grasp concepts on your own.

page 62 of the 4th edition rulebook: "Who can use a transport vehicle? Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex book will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected with the unit. These transport vehicles are directly assigned to that particular unit and are known as dedicated transports. Other transport vehicles are chosen separately and occupy a Force Organisation chart slot (for example, Eldar Falcons), and can be used to provide ad hoc transportation to any unit that can embark on it."

"Dedicated transports may only be used to transport the squad they are selected with plus any independent characters that have joined the squad ..."

If you actually bothered to read the rulebook, and read the Codex, and read everyone else's posts, you'll notice that Grey Knights in Power armor or Terminator armor have NO option to take a dedicated transport.

Yes you can take a Land Raider as a Heavy Support choice and yes any Grey Knight squad can ride in it. Everyone here knows that. No you cannot purchase a Land Raider as a dedicated transport for a Terminator Squad and NO you cannot purchase a Rhino as a dedicated transport for a PAGK squad.

Understand yet?

Once again (Gods this is getting old!!!) I am new to this game! So pardon me if I do not have an intricate understanding of the rules as aparrently you do! Pardon me if I question the answers given when I do not understand the answer! If you read my post titled "Immovable Marines?" you would see that I got screwed from someone who made a bad call on a rule!

Yes I get it! Yes I understand! But there's no reason to turn into a prick about it just because the noob doesn't understand something that you seem to know like the back of your hand!

edit: we understand that, but like ten people have said the same thing and yet you've continued to not understand or contradict us. I hope for your sake and the sake of your opponents it starts to make more sense to you what we're saying. the game is supposed to be fun, and it's not that complicated.

Ok. Look, I do thank you guys for the advice and I apologize for coming off ignorant (which I admit to). To be honest I can't say that I understand the Rhino thing thoroughly but I don't even want to talk about it anymore. Thanks guys.

Aeddon wrote:
Yes I get it! Yes I understand! But there's no reason to turn into a prick about it just because the noob doesn't understand something that you seem to know like the back of your hand!

But its fun to be a prick on the internet

Quiet entertaining whenever an idiot comes calling. Reference to Aeddon.

G

Where's Hellfury to post pictures of the pages in question!

Aeddon,

Quite simply, to be able to take a Rhino (or any vehicle for that matter), the entry in the army list must include that vehicle as an option. Reference the stormtrooper entry in the DH codex. Now look at the PAGT entry. It does not state that they may take a vehicle as a "dedicated" transport.

Now, that being said, in the Heavy Support section of the army list, you will see a Land Raider. It is a main battle tank, but also has a transport capability. A vehicle like this may be purchased as a Heavy Support choice, and then it may be used by any unit that is eligible to be transported throughout the game. The Land Raider would not be "dedicated" because it was purchased separately as a Heavy Support choice.

Moving along again, you will see that an Inquisitor Lord may purchase a Land Raider as a "dedicated" transport for his retinue. In this case, the Land Raider would be purchased out of the HQ points paid for the Inquisitor, and that Land Raider would only be allowed to transport the Inquisitor during the game.

Of course, this will all become moot during 5th edition.

Mod mode on
Whitedragon spelled out the issue completely. Thanks Whitedragon.
This thread is closed.

I am not giving any warnings this time but Kadun, Aeddon, Smashotron, the personal attacks are not acceptable on this forum, and will be delt with more harshly in the future.
Mod mode off.