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I have to say I like the new rules other than a few minor things such as defensive weapons being nerfed and wound allocation. Though I have found a huge NERF to the guard when I read the scenarios.. The annihilate mission which I though was just VP turned out to be Kill points. Now if any of you haven’t read what that means its simple. For every unit you destroy or wipe out you get a KP the player with the most KP at the end of the game wins.

Now isn’t this complete and utter B.S., so your telling me my 60 point guard squad gives the same points as a 300 point Assault Marine Squad. Point for point this isn’t fair at all, the SM player gets 5 times the amount of KP for killing the same amount of VPs. This one really only hurt the guard because the squads are forced to be small and have crummy stats. They are meant to die in mass. Orcs can take mobs and same with tyranids, so this won’t really affect them much at all.

I hope that these scenarios never come up in a tournament or any game I play in, I might as well walk away against marines. I was hoping you would only get a KP if you killed the entire platoon which could make this fair but alas, nope its not in a FAQ.

#$#$

My entire 2000 point Ork army gives up 9KP's total. Goodtimes.

Don't forget the other bonuses Guard get, though. Not being able to consolidate into fresh squads, blast weapons (read: ordnance) being more effective, vehicles being tougher, less plasma overheats and so on. I don't think it's all doom and gloom as you seem to believe.

Cheexsta wrote:Don't forget the other bonuses Guard get, though. Not being able to consolidate into fresh squads, blast weapons (read: ordnance) being more effective, vehicles being tougher, less plasma overheats and so on. I don't think it's all doom and gloom as you seem to believe.

Sure they dont die as fast but comon think of hard it is to wipe out any SM squad then imagine how hard it is to destroy a IG squad. Doom and gloom is a understatement. If that scenerio comes up IG are in for a HUGE disadvantage, guard die in droves they are meant to with a 5+ save. What makes it worse they are forced into 10 man squads while other horde armies are not.

An IG army can have easily 15-20 KP in their army a SM well can have easily 25% of that and be more deadly.

Agreed. Honestly, if you are taking 60 point IG squads, you're just giving your enemy kill points. Kinda makes you rethink your build, eh?

DaBoss wrote:Agreed. Honestly, if you are taking 60 point IG squads, you're just giving your enemy kill points. Kinda makes you rethink your build, eh?

Have you SEEN the guard Codex? they are REQUIRED to take an ungodly amount of squads, Have you SEEN an infantry platoon? That's a MINIMUM of 3 kill points per 1 FO chart.

DaBoss wrote:Agreed. Honestly, if you are taking 60 point IG squads, you're just giving your enemy kill points. Kinda makes you rethink your build, eh?

Well sir im forced to take at least 4 of them plus the 2 command squads for a total of 6 KP right of the bat. This is taking the bare minimum in troops I can.

GO GO CARAPACE ARMOR DOCTRINE

Now, quick question, because no, I have never played with or against IG, though I do own the codex. Does the platoon count as the unit or do each individual squads? The only reference to this I can find is pg 44 of the 'dex at the top, which in reference to platoons, "Each Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the Force Organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves. Otherwise, they function as independent units". May seem obvious, but I lack any experience with this army.

Grenadiers!

for now...

Red_Lives wrote:GO GO CARAPACE ARMOR DOCTRINE

Only problem with that is now we are forced to pay to pay even more for the third worse unit in the game conscripts and grots only being worse.

To be honest I know why they did it, to keep people from min/maxing squads such as the 5 man las/plas squads. This really only screws over the IG who are forced to take crummy small units. If they changed it so only platoons count towards the KP then this would all be fixed. Other horde armies are not affected by this to bad.

I know what you mean. A lot of people are affected some more than others. I play CSM and I was playing a game against Eldar on Friday night. He had 3 squads wrathguards (Eldrad was here btw, just thought I'd let you know he is still on every planet on every battlefield), Pathfinders, and some basic troops (Forget what these are called) with Uriel. I have 2 Squads of CSM, 1 Squad of Plague Marines (5 man), a squad of Oblits, a DP, and a Sorc. I get into combat with the Wraithguard and they destroy a squad of CSM, the Base guys with Uriel kill a squad (lucky rolls and high I). Then the wraithguard finish off the Plague Marines. My Sorc and DP got double mind warred out kind of early (turns 2 and 3) and couldn't really use their pyschic powers. Then my Oblits just shoot plasma the entire time. But no... everyone has cover ALWAYS. No exceptions. Haven't fired a shot without cover with a plasma since 5th came out.

It's pretty bogus. I can't wait to roll up Annhilation with Dawn of War deployment. I figure I can save 2.5 hours and just shake my opponents hand and concede.

This could all be fixed fairly easily if they changed it so that a platoon counts as one kill point. Getting kill points for killing a 5 man command squad is beyond slowed.

Can always hope the new IG Codex in '09 does some good old fasion rule bending!

Polonius wrote:It's pretty bogus. I can't wait to roll up Annhilation with Dawn of War deployment. I figure I can save 2.5 hours and just shake my opponents hand and concede.

You ARE aware you start with 2 infantry platoons AND a command platoon in that situation right?

Red_Lives wrote:

Polonius wrote:It's pretty bogus. I can't wait to roll up Annhilation with Dawn of War deployment. I figure I can save 2.5 hours and just shake my opponents hand and concede.

You ARE aware you start with 2 infantry platoons AND a command platoon in that situation right?

I hope I'm wrong, but I read that it said Units, not FOC choices. the rule actually says "up to two units from your troops selections", not two troops selections. The example specifies a units transport counting as the second troops choice, for example.

Doesn't the guard codex say a platoon counts as a single choice for deploying? (i know it was meant that you had to deploy an entire platoon at once but hey)

Ok, looking in codex IG. Command platoons include the following rule:
"A command platoon counts as a single unit for army selection, deployment, and reserves purposes."

However Infantry Platoons and Heavy weapon platoons do no include that language, and only say they count as a single "choice".

The BGB is pretty clear that units bought in one FOC act independatnly in every way, but codex rules override basic rules, right?

Yes they do?

And that is the wording i was referring to. So ARGUMENTS BEGIN!!!

(keep in mind if guard don't get this they are SHAFTED in Dawn of war)

don't have my copy to hand, but from what i remember and what you're saying, I'd take it that a command platoon can be deployed at once, whereas a troops platoon is deployed as individual squads. I'm never playing this kill points thing. The HQ platoon thing has come up in other threads, but the opposite way around - e.g. take sentinals as fast attack rather than HQ, this gives more freedom with their deployment, so yes a HQ will deploy at once, the footsloegrs? who cares about them anyway?.....oh wait, your opponent does now they make super soft targets......

Yup ... dawn of war annhilation sucks for guard because while 1 Infantry Platoon is one CHOICE it is comprised of three (or more) individual UNITS.

I think the codex saying it's the once choice for deployment does mean that you could whack down all 3 units - however the example saying that a dedicated transport counts as the second unit sort of screws things up. My dawn of war deployment is the HQ squad (without their support squads) plus my armoured fist squad (10 guys + transport) - I'd rather drop down my HQ and two infantry FOC slots / choices (a hq unit + support squads, plus 2x infantry command squad + 2 infantry squads) ... but allas .... the rules only allow me to deploy distinct "units".

This has mainly come up because of the huge changes between 3rd ed and 5th ed. I only very rarley ever won with my guard ... guess nothings going to change there.

Also the whole KP thing is a very sneaky way of trying to force balanced lists (provided you're using 5th ed codices). Overall I like it ... but my guard are on the shelf till they get a new codex.

On the bright side .... at least it only happens 1/9 games. Plus if you're playing a friendly game you can always re-roll it.

Yes you give up a KP for every unit destroyed period. Some Forge Org choices contain multiple units like IG platoons, Tyranid Zoanthropes, dedicated transports, etc.

In all cases, *all* units give up a KP when destroyed.

Yes, this makes it very difficult for IG to win KP games.

But on the positive side the massive amount of Troops units is great in the other two types of missions (66% of the time).


My suggestion for anyone in charge of running a tournament who wants to use something like Kill Points:

Use Kill Point ratios instead to determine the victor.


Each player has to total up the number of kill points their army would give up if it were totally wiped out. Then at the end of the game they divide the actual number of Kill Points they gave up by this total to get a Kill Point ratio.


Whichever side has the lower Kill Point ratio wins the game.


For example, Ork player A's army has a total of 7 Kill Points in it if the entire army was wiped out.

IG Player B has a total of 14 Kill Points in his army if the whole thing was wipe dout.

At the end of the game the IG player has lost 7 of his 14 Kill Points while the Ork player has lost 4 of his 7 Kill Points. So the KP ratios are:

IG player: 7/14 = .50 KP ratio

Ork player: 4/7 = .57 KP ratio.


The IG player has a smaller KP ratio and thus wins the game despite technically giving up more KPs.

However KP ratios would give IG an advantage 100% of the time as opposed to the current 66%

Since a ratio system would overly reward an army that took massive amounts of units.

yakface wrote:
My suggestion for anyone in charge of running a tournament who wants to use something like Kill Points:

Use Kill Point ratios instead to determine the victor.

Now there's a fine idea indeed. I certainly hope that the TOs take this idea on board.

The main reason I like it is that it doesn't punish or reward taking smaller or bigger units; plus it takes into consideration that not all units are created equal (that's why they have points values after all).

Red_Lives wrote:Since a ratio system would overly reward an army that took massive amounts of units.

I contest that idea simply because smaller units are by their very nature easier to kill than large ones. That means an army with a lot of KPs has a bunch of small, fairly easy to kill units (as the IG do).

The Kill Point ratio system simply gives a better overall representation of which side has accomplished killing the opposing force as a whole.

There certainly are some cases where the system could be abused, like someone taking 3 Death Cult assassins which are a total of 3 KPs and then keeping them hidden the whole game to preserve extra KPs, but I think in general the system is MUCH more fair than the Kill Point rules straight out of the book.

I loathe to think about trying to explain a 'Ratio' to Joe gamer at a tournament. I agree that the concept is more fair and balanced, but we're talking about people who groan at the complexity of simple addition in standard VP games.

Maybe some sort of visual aid would help, using apples or something similarly bright and appealing.

@ OP:
I realized this as well, but you have to realize that having more squads gives you more units, and therefore more flexibility. This changes things so that it is not a no-brainer to fracture your squads up as much as possible to maximise objective-grabbing potential. I believe that was the intention of GW, and also to streamline the gaming process.

Burning Star IV wrote:@ OP:
I realized this as well, but you have to realize that having more squads gives you more units, and therefore more flexibility. This changes things so that it is not a no-brainer to fracture your squads up as much as possible to maximise objective-grabbing potential. I believe that was the intention of GW, and also to streamline the gaming process.

Keep in mind that IG have no option to combine squads. Every other army can take larger squads, IG can only take more squads.

The kids on Warseer are pretty convinced that IG players are simply whining, and I think some of it is ignorance of how IG work (mulitple squads, lots of required ICs), and some of it is natural Warseer disdain for anything remotely "negative," and some is dismissed as being balanced by the IGs strengths in the other missions.

The lynchpin of my argument is that while every other army has ways to minimize KPs, in line with the balance between lots of scoring units, IG don't have that option. Outside of stupidly conscript heavy armies, there's no way to build large units in the IG codex.

I agree with the OP and think that the Kill Point system is heavily biased towards certain armies. My 1500 Ork army offers up no less than 13 kill points!

1 - Ork Warboss
2 - Ork Boyz Mob
3,4 - Ork Boyz Mob with Trukk
5,6 - Ork Boyz Mob with Trukk
7,8 - Ork Boyz Mob with Trukk
9 - Wartrak squadron
10 - Buggy squadron
11 - Stormboyz Mob
12 - Looted Wagon
13 - Battlewagon

Now personally, I think this is a nice balanced list. It performs reasonably well in the other two mission types but it certainly isn't built to capitalize on those missions. It is extremely challenging to win an Annihilation game though. Except for the Battlewagon, all of my vehicles are very easy to destroy. It's extremely hard to hide them all safely in the backfield. And if they are hiding away from danger then they certainly aren't helping my boyz get their job done.

I faced a 1500 Marine army that only consisted of 6 kill points (A Commander, Terminator Command Squad, Land Raider, 3 Tactical Squads). In the end I ended up killing all three tactical squads, the Terminator Squad and his Commander. This earned me 5 Kill Points. He destroyed all three of my Trukks, My looted Wagon, A squadron of buggies and one Ork Boyz Squad. Now on Paper I killed about 1250 points of his stuff and wiped out all but his Land Raider. He killed around 500 points of my stuff and I still had seven units running around the board. However because of Kill Points he ended up winning 6-5!?

When the enemy is ignoring my Ork Boyz squads to shoot at the empty Trukk behind them, then something is wrong with the scenario design here.