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Summoned Daemons count as troops in all respects except for the slot in your force org chart. Do they still come from your "troops allowance" for purposes of being scoring units?

Thanks!

In the codex are they troops choices? if yes then yes, if no then no

Summoned daemons say that they "do not use up any force organisation chart but are otherwhise treated as a troops unit"

I think this is clearly indicative that the summoned daemons would be scoring units and thus able to secure objectives.

The fact that they aren't listed under the troop category in the codex (they have their own called "summoned daemons") doesn't matter when that sentance is used.

That's what I am not sure of:

"Units of Summoned Lesser Daemons do not use up any force organization chart selection, but are otherwise treated as a Troops unit."

Yet the scoring unit rules talk about your troops "allowance". I suspect I am just over-lawyering it and they are Troops for this purpose.

Thanks.

Ok, i just checked the codex and the rulebook, they answer is NO!!! P.90 BGB "an army's scoring units are all the units that come from its TROOPS ALLOWANCE" daemons are not this so they are NOT scoring units

Can you explain that a bit more in depth Red_Lives, I understand the basis of your stance on it, but I see the fact that the chaos dex says that the summoned daemons are "treated as a troops unit" for a range of things including being scoring units, as being a scoring unit is NOT taking up a FOC slot, even though it relates to the FOC. Why do you think this doesn't apply?

What if we changed the situation around, Elites are scoring units, Dark Eldar get to take a unit of Warp Beasts if they have atleast 1 wych squad in the army and the warp beasts do not take up a force organisation slot despite being listed under the Elites heading. Are the warp beasts scoring units?

Basically I'm wondering if your arguement is "they aren't under the troops heading" or if it's "they aren't part of a unit that's taking up a Force Organisation Slot"

If you go read page 90 i quoted it verbatim "an army's scoring units are all the units that come from its TROOPS ALLOWANCE" Summoned daemons do NOT come from this troops allowance, and by a PURE RAW standpoint do not count as scoring units. That is unless you can prove that summoned daemons are part of this allowance, or better yet can find a "clearer" definition of what a troops allowance is. The BGB doesn't clearly define it *shrugs*

The summoned daemons entry in codex chaos says they are troops in terms of everything but taking up a force organisation slot, as such they are troops that are using up 0 of the available 6 Troop Allowance slots on the FOC, they come from it's troops allowance they simply have a special rule that means they are free in terms of the FOC

they can take objectives, i talked to my local GW and yes they are scoring units

Local gw store's are a very very reliable source for answers on rulequestions.

Drunkspleen wrote:The summoned daemons entry in codex chaos says they are troops in terms of everything but taking up a force organisation slot, as such they are troops that are using up 0 of the available 6 Troop Allowance slots on the FOC, they come from it's troops allowance they simply have a special rule that means they are free in terms of the FOC

This is what I am inclined to think as well, but clearly there is some room to disagree.

Thanks for the opinions!

Red_Lives wrote:If you go read page 90 i quoted it verbatim "an army's scoring units are all the units that come from its TROOPS ALLOWANCE" Summoned daemons do NOT come from this troops allowance, and by a PURE RAW standpoint do not count as scoring units. That is unless you can prove that summoned daemons are part of this allowance, or better yet can find a "clearer" definition of what a troops allowance is. The BGB doesn't clearly define it *shrugs*

And it goes on to further state that "other units may deny an objective....but only Troops can control it." The Chaos Codex states that lesser demons "...do not use up any force organisation chart selection, but are otherwise treated as a Troops unit." It uses the big T for troops.

As they don't take up any slots on the FOC, then I may take any number of lesser demons as a Troops choice, and since they are not limited to just 6 slots, then my Troops allowance for them is unlimited, other than being limited by the points of the game being played.

Lesser Demons have therefore satisfied both requirements, being a Troops choice and coming from the Troops allowance (which for them is unlimited), and therefore count as a scoring unit.

Drunkenspleen and Lord_Mortis are correct.

Red_Lives wrote:If you go read page 90 i quoted it verbatim "an army's scoring units are all the units that come from its TROOPS ALLOWANCE" Summoned daemons do NOT come from this troops allowance, and by a PURE RAW standpoint do not count as scoring units. That is unless you can prove that summoned daemons are part of this allowance, or better yet can find a "clearer" definition of what a troops allowance is. The BGB doesn't clearly define it *shrugs*

If the rule book doesn't deffine it, that doesn't make it undeffinable, it just means that the writer was using a common english deffinition. There by, Troops allowance would simple mean the Troops you are allowed to take. Of further note it's actually formated as Troops allowance, which would indicate that Troops is being used as a proper game term, while allowance isn't.

What about an Etherial's [sp?] honor guard? They don't take up a Force slot, and are not counted as your compulsorily 1+ Fire Warrior squad, but it doesn't specificly say they count as Troops still.

By default, Troops are Scoring.

By rule, Summoned Daemons are taken as Troops.

As Daemons don't have any Special Rule to override this, they're still Scoring status.

I'd easily agree with most of the people here, and count them as a scoring troops choice. Anyone at GW that I've talked to has also said they count.

Gives a decent reason to take them.

mikhaila wrote:I'd easily agree with most of the people here, and count them as a scoring troops choice. Anyone at GW that I've talked to has also said they count.

Gives a decent reason to take them.

I would agree. At first I thought no, but reading a few more posts I think it is entirely logical to treat them as a scoring unit.

Didn't one of the latest battle reports [as reliable as those are...] also talk about how chaos is so great because it can take so many more troops than other armies?

Though in that same battle report it called the defiler BS4 and said plasmaguns were AP3, so I dunno how reliable that is at all lol.