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In the process of putting together my first army for near enough 10 years; i like to play eldar, and i like to be sneaky

Having read these forums (most informative!) and the shiny new rule book, i've dropped my original plan of having falcons/serpents stuffed full of harlequins/banshees and equipped with star engines for ramming asap and sneaking round the disembarkation rules.

I think i'll go for a Reaper/pathfinder fire base, with harlequins and storm guardians as my main assault force, Hawks/Spiders for tank hunting and general annoyance, Farseer and Autarch HQ.

This all clocks in at about 1200pts. Seeing as i haven't played the game for a looooong time, if someone could help me with a couple of things, i'd be most grateful:

I was wondering if anyone saw any value in putting a squad of scorpions w/exarach + infiltrate into a wave serpent to make use of the new flanking rules. I figure it could be useful for harassing the enemy firebase early on (around turn3).

I have seen alot of criticism in this section of both warpspiders and swoopinghawks towhit, that they are only really useful against horde armies and not as part of a balanced force. Since both are jump infantry (with nice special rules concerning movement) they seem ideal for softening up any units i want to assault/contesting objectives, in addition haywire grenades and death spinners look very tasty for taking out almost all vehicles. I know the deathspinner has ap- but with only a handful of vehicles having a rear av of more than 10 and the spiders ability to deepstrike into position, i would hopefully get enough penetrating hits to knock off its' weapons or immobilise it (then pinging behind cover).

I know this looks a little short on troop choices but, if i move the guardians (fortuned) behind the harlies, a 4+cover save that can be re-rolled looks to make them quite survivable! Unless the VoT power means the cover save doesn't apply?

Sorry if this is posted in the wrong forum, i figured that seeing as it's not strictly a list, more of a plan, that it would be better placed here!

i like where this going, a different army list with a different tactic

I have used warp spiders to great effect. Unfortunately, they are weaker in 5 ed than they were in 4 ed. In 4 ed, you could glance rear armor on a 4+ and then have a 1/6 chance of getting a destroyed result. In 5 ed, you cannot get a destroyed result with a glance -- in fact, the best you can do is destroy a weapon. You have a 1/6 change of getting a destroyed result on a penetration, but now you need a 5+ instead of a 4+.

Against infantry, though, spiders are still gold. Even marines will go down, as they will take a large number of wounds. With farseer support (doom!), even MCs will fall to warp spiders. The ability to withdraw from combat also gives them a lot of tactical flexiibility.

Swooping hawks are terrible. They possess a bizarre combination of fragility and impotence. A unit that dies easily and is hard pressed to kill anything really is not worth your time.

The army you're describing is still seriously lacking in anti-tank. Warp spiders hitting rear armor is not going to cut it.

I think i'll go for a Reaper/pathfinder fire base, with harlequins and storm guardians as my main assault force, Hawks/Spiders for tank hunting and general annoyance, Farseer and Autarch HQ.

Shirou is right, Warp Spider don't cut it against tanks in the new ed. What about heavy support?

i've dropped my original plan of having falcons/serpents stuffed full of harlequins/banshees and equipped with star engines for ramming asap and sneaking round the disembarkation rules.

Why did you drop the plan for a mech army? It still works in the 5th ed. Ramming is neat but not what you want to do in the 1st place.

Yes, you have been out of the way for ten years.

Maybe this will help you:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Eldar_Army_Analysis

I can see that you have some interesting experiments to play out. While many of your choices make good sense on paper, some of them are pretty easy to rule out right away. Basically, it sounds like you want a static infantry firebase, with some mobile (but still foot-mounted) elements. This is doable, but anti-vehicle power will be a primary concern. I must echo the others in saying that Spiders/Hawks are unlikely to be the answer- but I will try to communicate why

First, though, the more glaring problem: Storm Guardians are just too fragile to hold up with the new end-of-combat leadership rules. By way of explanation, tons of them will die (even if they get a few hits in first) in CC. This will cancel out the advantages of the Harlies, and have you taking leadership tests with major minuses while the Harlies take lots of autowounds for being Fearless. CC is really nasty in this edition, and it is unwise to use units as "anvils" unless they are specifically designed for it (like Dire Avengers with PW/SS and Defend). The only way that Stormies are likely to be useful is in 2x flamers plus Destructor Warlock configuration- and they need to be mounted to get near enough to use that.

Perhaps a better choice to complement your Pathfinders, Harlies and Reapers would be Guardian Defenders. They are even more pants in CC, but their heavy weapon support and lethal short-range fire are more useful than the Stormies' negligible CC contribution. They will be more useful holding objectives near your deployment zone. As an added bonus, their heavy weapon can either up your anti-tank capacity or (better IMO) your long-range S6 fire (against infantry or transports).

Hawks and Spiders are something that you will have to play with to see their effectiveness in 5th. I don't think the book is closed for or against their efficacy, but I wouldn't expect them to survive much. People will be supporting vehicles with infantry better in this edition than they did in the last 2 editions, as Death or Glory and CC against vehicles are much more effective now. Spiders can do okay against rear armor, but will rarely destroy their target. Hawks are even less empowered in 5th, as their haywire grenades haven't risen much in power compared to other grenades.

A more effective alternative might be Warwalkers, Wraithlords with BL/EML, or mounted units of Fire Dragons. As none of those really fit with your theme, you might just want to try proxying them first to see if you like them enough to compromise your aesthetics for kick-butt-power.

As for the Harlies providing cover or not with VoT, that's a very good question. I think they do (as usual for infantry), as I have seen no rule stating that they do not, regardless of the functioning of VoT.

Finally, if you are fielding an infantry firebase, I cannot recommend Eldrad highly enough. Not only are his 3 powers per turn and decent CC effectiveness more than worth their price, but he allows you to reposition units after deployment. With an infantry firebase force, this is a seriously useful tool. You can either deceive/lure the enemy, or react to unexpected threats if you deploy first.

Your mileage may vary with all these suggestions, depending upon your offensive/defensive play preferences and your common opponents. Please let us know what you think after a few test games.

J.Black wrote:In the process of putting together my first army for near enough 10 years; i like to play eldar, and i like to be sneaky

I think i'll go for a Reaper/pathfinder fire base, with harlequins and storm guardians as my main assault force, Hawks/Spiders for tank hunting and general annoyance, Farseer and Autarch HQ.

I have seen alot of criticism in this section of both warpspiders and swoopinghawks towhit, that they are only really useful against horde armies and not as part of a balanced force. Since both are jump infantry (with nice special rules concerning movement) they seem ideal for softening up any units i want to assault/contesting objectives, in addition haywire grenades and death spinners look very tasty for taking out almost all vehicles. I know the deathspinner has ap- but with only a handful of vehicles having a rear av of more than 10 and the spiders ability to deepstrike into position, i would hopefully get enough penetrating hits to knock off its' weapons or immobilise it (then pinging behind cover).

Reapers, personally I'm not a huge fan because of their lack of mobility. I also don't like that they take up a heavy slot (They might see more play from me if I could field them as elites). That said due to some of the rule changes in 5th Ed mainly the blast template being auto hit and deviation reduced by BS, along with the Exarch being able to ignore cover and I'm slowly starting to think they *might* be worth a heavy slot this edition (5th). Also as I fight Tau more I think they may be handy Vs Range oriented armies.

Warpspiders, they're "okay" but overall they are not that good imo. Now that they can't hold an objective and only contest, they lose a ton of effectiveness. Combine that with the fact that area terrain no longer blocks LOS and it equates to them having less places to hide.

Spiders imo work best in small numbers that act as a reactionary unit (A unit 6 to me is the perfect size as any bigger and it is harder to hide) . Something bad comes your way, they pop out like a trap door spider and blow the crap out of it. That is harder for them to do now, as they are more likely to get shot at prior do doing that duty. 3+ save sounds like it's good but Spiders are too costly to be shot at when you don't want them to be.

Deep strike you say? Spiders have 12" range, which means to effectively deep strike and shoot you have to land down almost perfect. Sure you can now run after DS and use your assault jump move and that can help them get into a good position, but really that's asking for them to get shot and killed (unless you're also pressuring them with your main force). Also DS, won't always happen when you need it to (Example, last game I played with Spiders, they did not show up till turn 5 (lots of 1's)). So imo you're almost always better off starting them on the table.

I also hate that jumping into ruins (difficult terrain) now counts as dangerous for jump troops (As if spiders needed to die more when moving). [If this rule was the same in 4th, my group never used it].

On the plus side, yes they fire a ton of shots and with Str6 they will kill things... and by things I mean other infantry. With the nurf to AP dash weapons, they like necron warriors are less effective against vehicles (granted they can sometimes get around to rear armor hits due to high mobility). Overall they are not easy to use and most effective when a great deal of patience is used (and waiting for the best opportune time to strike).

Hawks... really one of the best things they have going for them is the auto Deep Strike (DS) on turn 5 (and sky leap to jump back in reserves when they want to) along with dropping grenades when they enter from DS. They're over priced and very fragile with weak firepower.

Back in 4th Ed I've seen large squads charge/assault vehicles with some success (but I honestly think Falcon + Firedragons are a better way to go). Vs Monoliths in 4th Hawks used to be better via Intercept but now that speed of the skimmer determines what you need to hit, intercept is not really needed (and is only handy when fighting other Eldar or maybe Tau). In a pinch Hawks can take out a vehicle but they're not great at it and if you do want this to be there primary role you're better off running a large squad (which makes using them to DS/grenade less efficient).

Now I have seen some compare them to Warpspiders with the argument that Hawks due to their move 12", shoot 24" will often get to fire every turn, Vs the Spiders who rarely get to shoot so throwout a whole game the Hawks would average more kills. I think to do this you'll have to be darn good with your hawks and your opponent will need to be presented better targets...

Artist look wise, Hawks are one of my favorite Eldar units of all time. I really really wish they where good, sadly I don't think they are. IMO they should cost less and at the very least have an ability that makes them immune to dangerous terrain... maybe more.


Autarch, I wish they where cool and I would gladly use them more and pay a higher point cost if they had Eternal Warrior (Immune to Instant Death), but with only T3 they can easily get squished or killed in HtH (GK). One of the best ways to utilize an Autarch is on a jet bike with a lance in hand along with a unit of shining spears. The only other reason to take one is for the +1 reserves and so I only think about taking one when playing with Hawks, Spiders, Walkers. Of course now that you can keep anything reserve it does increase his usefulness slightly. I think avoiding most of his war gear and just giving him a fusion gun is the way to go in such cases.

Troop choices, I love Pathfinders (Rangers). Good range, 2+ cover save (one of the tougher Eldar units while in cover), and always move 6" though difficult terrain can have them grabbing mission goals at the end of a game. Can't move and fire their rifles, but overall very solid (and good against MC's, though not daemons). In a pinch they can shoot at vehicles now (not great at cracking them open, but if you have nothing better to shoot, it can be something to try for).

Guardians I only like defender as at least they can take a longer range weapon. Really one of the main reasons I use guardians is to be a baby sitter for my Wraithlords (Wraith sight). So they both hang back in cover and shoot things and often this just means they're shooting their 1 heavy weapon (EML, or Scatter Laser). I'd not go Bright Lance unless you don't have any other anti-vehicle as I personally hate paying for a single shot weapon that is going to miss 50% of the time (Guardians BS sucks). Of course it really depends on what the rest of your force is... some armies (4 units of guardians for example) having bright lances on each one can be good.

Dire Avengers I'm a fan. Tons of shots, longer range than the Guardians and they hit more often. They can take bladestorm for even more shots. They are really good when fighting daemons (tons of shots). They can also chew up many other troops choices (and in a setting where everyone is taking more troops, that can be handy). They used to be good at being a tar pit but now that melee is so deadly (and usually does not last) I'm not sure how good they are at preforming that role, better than most I suspect but I still think it's a hard role to do now, At least unlike most they have tools for it in Defend + Shimmer Shield.

Jet Bikes Great for last min grabs and they have amazing maneuverability (work well with a mech force). I honestly don't have a ton of experience with them as I don't own any (and am holding out till GW release the new figures to buy some, but I've heard it's a year out).

Anyway, It's not that I won't field Hawks or Spiders, I do and it just depends on how competitive I want a list to be and when I do field them I do it as a utility/bonus unit.

It also really matters what type of opponents you facing both in terms of armies (Necron, SM, Tau, etc) and also what type of environment you'll be playing against (Serious tournament players, players who have large collections and can field anything at any number, or other people who can barely field a 1500 point army). For example Spiders might be good against Daemons due to large volume of shots with high strength and due to invulnerable saves AP matters not. But on the flip side 12" range and MC's that want to kill you in melee also mean you'll only get one shot off (and then it'll depend if you survive long enough to even get a chance to Hit & Run).

-Jara

PPS: For example, lately I've been trying to leave room points wise for a small 5 man Hawk unit with an Exarch with Sky Leap but nothing else. Basically the cheapest I can make a DS Hawk unit. I plan on trying to use it to contest on turn 4-6, drop grenades via yo-yo or just stay on the board and take shots at things depending on what is happening in the battle. It's my attempt to make Hawks good/work.

J.Black wrote:

I have seen alot of criticism in this section of both warpspiders and swoopinghawks towhit, that they are only really useful against horde armies and not as part of a balanced force. Since both are jump infantry (with nice special rules concerning movement) they seem ideal for softening up any units i want to assault/contesting objectives, in addition haywire grenades and death spinners look very tasty for taking out almost all vehicles. I know the deathspinner has ap- but with only a handful of vehicles having a rear av of more than 10 and the spiders ability to deepstrike into position, i would hopefully get enough penetrating hits to knock off its' weapons or immobilise it (then pinging behind cover).

I've really enjoyed playing with the Spiders and would definitely give them a go. Great against hordes, sure, but still good against MEQ. Personally, Jump Infantry shine if there are a couple of terrain features they can get behind. If playing on open boards, with no LOS blocking terrain, spiders become and expensive and short lived unit. Good news is more people are building terrain that allows their vehicles covers saves or can hide them. Should be plenty for a unit of spiders to squirrel behind.

I use them to hunt out/tie down heavy weapon squads, thin down assault units and contest objectives.

Here's my break down:

Jump Infantry: I love jump infantry. If there is a couple of pieces of terrain, on the board, you just duck behind there and get ready for a second turn shot/assault.

Lots of wounding shots: Sure, your opponent gets to make saves, but they usually won't make them all! Unit of 10 WS can put out 1-2 wounds per model on most units 10-12 models. Chance of knocking out the powerfist and/or special weapon is alright. If they have an T3 IC, in there, you may be able to ID him/her. S6 may not destroy many vehicles but you'll have them weaponless or stunned with that many shots. Still a neutered vehicle, if only for a turn. Still, you'll have better things for taking out vehicles. Use the spiders if there is nothing else.

Assaults: Spiders aren't great at killing things in Assault but they are tough enough to survive a round with non-assault units. You can usually soften a unit up pretty good with the shooting so charging in and striking first you can usually cull a few more before they get to hit you back with the few that are left. PF will mess up your WS and if you don't have PowerBlades really don't even bother with MEQ. What you want is to be in HTH (so you don't get shot at) and then Hit and Run at the end of his CC round. Hop out and hose another unit (or the same one) on your turn. You'll want to watch counter-assaulting units coming in on his turn.

Fast: With Hit and Run you can cover quite a bit of ground (average 10.5" H&R + 12" Jump) before you start your shooting phase. Then you can run/warp jump after that depending on where the WS need to be. That's a respectable 28.5" charge/contest range.

Deep Striking: I'd leave it behind. Sure you can move afterwords but not having the unit for 1-2 turns doesn't quite work for me. Autarch would improve things but I think you can get where you need to be by starting on the board.

All in all, there might be a lot better units out there but you can definitely have some fun with Spiders. I use them primarily to get in the face of units in my opponents back court or things on his flanks.

Give them a whirl, it's just one game

I borrowed a friend's Eldar to try out a few things in a tournament today.

Star player: Warwalkers
Assist: Farseer

I had 3 Warwalkers each with 2 Missile Lauchers. A Farseer with Guide tagged along for some fun. 6 twin linked 8/2 weapons were great against vehicles or Ork bikes. But they really shined, and caught people off guard, when I fired 6 4/4 Blast rounds, rerolled the scatter if it was bad, and forced a pinning check too. At one point I had 27 hits against 4 Guard squads to resolve. Excellent flexiblity. A bit pricy, but since they can move an then shoot (what Eldar can't?) they always started behind some obstruction and then poked around the corner just enough to lauch their rockets. Keep in mind that vehicle squadons do not block their own line of sight (like any other shooting unit, even though they are vehicles) so you can present a low profile if the terrain allows it.

I also took a unit of 10 Scorpions with all the toys and used them with Outflank. With some luck to get them where I needed them, they killed the scoring units on/near objectives in two games.

Proxy a few games and see if you like how these units play now with the new Outflank and Blast/Scatter rules.

Nothing to see here.... move along....

Having played Eldar with the 5th in several battles I can say that I definately enjoy the Scorpions w/ Exarch ability to Outflank.

I usually play with two five man squads each with exarch. a bit pricey but I increase my chances of ending up on the board side I want. In my games with regular opponents I have had huge success. In the tourney I played this weekend they helped immensely in contesting objectives.

I will say that your list is seriously lacking in anti-tank fire power. I had horrible time in my tourney dealing with a Land Raider in one match and a Monolith in the other. I have a more troop orientated list and lacked the firepower to deal with them. But I give outflanking Scorpions a thumbs up all the way!

Apologies for my seemigly lack of interest. Internet has been utterly unavailable for a few months now.

Have played a few games, using my original list, with moderate success. Definitely need more anti-tank; leman russes and land raiders were pretty much game enders. Monoliths less of a problem as their massive points cost made it easy to phase out the entire army.

Have to agree with the last point. Flanking scorpions in a transport are just plain nasty. Especially when taking 2 autarchs - not a great idea on paper - i was able to put them into action just when needed!

thanks for all the feedback (belatedly)! I will post my curent list and some photos, background etc... as soon as possible.

Lol more Necromancy

J.Black you need to check the date the thread was post before posting a reply

(edit) i know this is your thread but its often better to start a new one or just leaving it dead after this lenth of time

Mod in:

Yes. Thread necro is generally discouraged on Dakka. It's just a question of tidiness.

There is nothing against J.Black for this. I mean it's not a sackable offence unless you do it all the time.

Please start a fresh thread to discuss your current list.

I will lock this thread.