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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.




The Divine Pronouncement Witch Hunter psychic power says (pg 14): "Designate a single enemy unit within 18" and not in close combat -- this unit must take a Morale check as if it had just suffered 25% casualties from shooting. . .If the test is failed, the target unit will immediately fall back according to the normal rules."

The Fear of the Darkness Space Marine psychic power says (4th edition codex, pg 26): "Every enemy unit within 12" of the Librarian not Locked in an assault must take a Morale check (as though they had taken 25% casualties) with a -2 modifier to their Leadership, or fall back."

Other similar game effects include: The Deceiver's 'Deceive' ability, Witch Hunter's Holy Prometheum, etc.


The Morale rules on page 46 of the rulebook say: "Troops who are falling back automatically fail all Morale checks, except those to regroup."

Page 45 says: "Units make a fall back move immediately upon failing a Morale test."





QUESTION: If a unit suffers an effect that seems to cause it to fall back mid-shooting phase and it also suffers 25% casualties that phase, how will you choose to play the game?



OPTION A. The rules as written (RAW): The unit immediately falls back mid-phase. At the end of the phase if the unit actually suffered 25% casualties that phase it will fall back a second time.


OPTION B. The unit immediately falls back mid-phase. However I ignore the morale rules and play that a unit can only make one fall back move per turn (and so it will not fall back again at the end of the phase).


OPTION C. Since none of these rules state that the morale check itself is taken "immediately" I play that these effects are resolved at the end of the shooting phase and essentially just force a morale check (with some additional negative modifiers) regardless of whether the unit suffered 25% casualties or not. In short, only a single morale check will be taken at the end of the phase in this situation.


OPTION D. Similar to 'Option C', I play that the check is taken at the end of the phase but it doesn't supercede the normal morale check for 25% casualties. Therefore, the unit would have to take two morale checks at the end of the phase (one with all the negative penalties for the special rule) and if either (or both) of these tests are failed the unit makes one fall back move.


OPTION E. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

I think as there are two different effects you test for both (as they both cause it) and make one fall back move if you fail either.

Edit: so I chose D.

yakface wrote:
The Fury of the Ancients Space Marine psychic power says (4th edition codex, pg 26): "Every enemy unit within 12" of the Librarian not Locked in an assault must take a Morale check (as though they had taken 25% casualties) with a -2 modifier to their Leadership, or fall back."

Don't you mean Fear of the Darkness?

skyth wrote:

yakface wrote:
The Fury of the Ancients Space Marine psychic power says (4th edition codex, pg 26): "Every enemy unit within 12" of the Librarian not Locked in an assault must take a Morale check (as though they had taken 25% casualties) with a -2 modifier to their Leadership, or fall back."

Don't you mean Fear of the Darkness?

Whoopsee.

Thanks, it's fixed now.

I picked D too. Did I get it right Yak?

I've always done B. I've done it that way because it was such a rare case that I didn't think about them being forced to make another at the end. I've always played you can only runaway once in a turn.

I agree that they can only fall back once, but think they should test for both before hand.

Datajax wrote:I've always done B. I've done it that way because it was such a rare case that I didn't think about them being forced to make another at the end. I've always played you can only runaway once in a turn.

Just to clarify, what is new in this 5th edition equation is the bit about falling back unit automatically failing all morale checks.

That is entirely new and seems purposely designed to allow units to make multiple fall back units in the same turn. . .but I'm interested to see how everyone else will be playing it.

Hmmm. This is confusing?

"...unit must take a Morale check as if it had just suffered 25% casualties from shooting. . .If the test is failed, the target unit will immediately fall back"

"Units make a fall back move immediately".

Holy Promethium:

"...will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a Morale Check as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties."

Effect of both: IMMEDIATE. Cause a casualty, you WILL take a morale check right now. There's no fething around, since when did GW write permissive rule sets? Where does it direct you to take morale checks when you want to? All of the powers you list are IMMEDIATE effects.

I use my power, you fail the test, you run away. If you suffered 25%, you get to run away again. If I have multiple effects to trigger on you, you keep running as each occurs.

Your new way: I suffer the effect but like some wierd game of magic I can wait until the end of the "phase" to suffer them, and the effects "stack" so you only suffer it once.

I note that all of these abilities occur in the shooting phase and have in their codex or the FAQ's that these are "instead of firing a weapon".

If I shoot you with psychic powers do you get to "choose" to take the models off at the end of the shooting phase? No. Everything is resolved immediately.

Only ACTUALLY suffering 25% casualties will trigger a morale check at the end of the phase.

Why? That's the only instance where you are told to check at the end of the phase.

GW changed the rules from 4th edition, and wanting it to go back to 4th edition is not going to help any.

Stelek wrote:Hmmm. This is confusing?

Your new way: I suffer the effect but like some wierd game of magic I can wait until the end of the "phase" to suffer them, and the effects "stack" so you only suffer it once.

Whose new way? Who are you referring to?

One reason that it can possibly be confusing is because some of those effects say they cause a morale check as if the unit had suffered 25% casualties. And if you flip to the rules for such a morale check it states that it is taken at the end of the phase, ergo possible confusion.

But regardless, I'm certainly not proposing any "new way" just trying to gauge how people are playing this situation.

If you had a power which said "Target unit is forced to take an immediate morale check." then a falling back unit subject to that power would be forced to make an immediate fallback move.

But all of those powers which say test as if you'd taken 25% casualties powers are confusing because the wording is redundant. If you're doing the casualty test according to main book, you take at most one casualty test per shooting phase as the last thing to do in that phase. The 'immediate' for falling back is relative to when the test in actually done (which is completely as normal in the rules), not to when the power is used.

I answered 'A' because I didn't notice the line about "as if it had taken 25% casualties" but I would actually play it as 'C' for those powers. From the description of the Deceiver's ability and the Witch Hunter Devine Pronouncement, it just says that the target unit has to take a morale check as if it had taken 25% casualties, which is case 'C'.

If it just said 'Take a morale check or fall back', that would be case 'A'. Are there any powers like that in the game?

solkan wrote:

If it just said 'Take a morale check or fall back', that would be case 'A'. Are there any powers like that in the game?

I'm on the same page, as Slokan.

I was thinking about this, again. If the test is made immediately (roll LD and possibly fallback, right away) what is left to make the test like "suffering 25% casualties"? Wouldn't it simply be forcing LD test for a fallback move?

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties " (WH pg23). "A unit losing 25% pr more of its models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase" (BRB pg 44). If I fail, I fallback. It doesn't say "immediately" anywhere for this upgrade. The effect paid for is that only one wound need to be inflicted to cause the test. If the unit takes the casualty, I would not take further Casualties tests for the phase, as the 25% rule had already been satisfied (the one wound being treated as 25+% casualties).

Divine Pronouncement uses the word "immediately" when talking about the fall back and *not* when the morale test. That seems redundant as: "Units make a fall back move immediately upon failing a Morale test." (BRB pg 45). Badly written pyschic power, IMHO. I would play it the same as above, though. "-this unit must take a morale check as if it had just suffered 25% causalities from shooting" (WH pg14). Again, "A unit losing 25% pr more of its models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase" (BRB pg 44). I would not roll further casualty tests as the condition for 25% Casualties had already been fulfilled.

For the record, I originally voted "D".

Cheers.

A) Mostly because quite often there's a more immediate tactical concern to the use of the abilities. Clearing assault lanes, backing up units that you don't want assaulting you, moving a cheap screening unit out of the way at what you really want to pound. These types of powers seemed to be more directed to that type of usage, and to wait till after all the shooting is done to see if they pass or fail at the end of the shooting phase would be a blow to the purchasers tactical options. And since Ld tests can be passed, it's not like it's a guaranteed result anyhow.

GW put the rule in for 25% casualties so fearless units are not affected and they don't have to say that in every description. They can just have the main rules say it for them.

In short, you take a morale check from 25% casualties at the end of the phase (because the main rulebook tells you at the end of any phase in which you ACTUALLY suffered 25% casualties you have to take the test) but these abilities direct you to take the test 'as if you had suffered' which is not actually suffering 25% casualties.

All of them tell you to take the test, why would you assume you take it at the end of the phase? If the rule does not tell you to take a test later, you do it now.

As soon as you actually suffer 25% casualties from one of these abilities, then you can delay the test until the end of the phase per the wording in the main rulebook.

In short, I think this is perfectly clear and is rules abuse at it's worst.

Stelek wrote:GW put the rule in for 25% casualties so fearless units are not affected and they don't have to say that in every description. They can just have the main rules say it for them.

Not too sure what Fearlessness has to do with this.

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties "

would affect a fearless unit the same as this would:

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test "

Less text in the second one and certainly clearer as to when the test would be made.

Fearless units are immune to morale checks per the main rulebook.

In essence, they "take" all morale and pinning checks. And then they pass them.

Where everyone else, does not.

In effect it works like this:

Forced to take morale or pinning check:

a) Roll dice if not fearless
b) Autopass test if fearless

The main rules tell you only to take the end of phase morale check if you suffer 25% casualties, and so that is the only instance in which you should do so.

There are no delayed phases in the game other than those GW tells you about, because GW makes explicit, not permissive, game systems.

Put another way:

1) Your mother tells you to put away your clothes.

Or,

2) Your mother tells you to put away your clothes when you go to bed.

What makes you think she meant #1 to be the same as #2?

I know if I received #1, I'd go put away my clothes because she sure didn't mean "whenever you feel like it".

Voted and am now moving along to avoid pointless arguing of semantics in a thread meant to collect peoples opinions on how they play.

Good advice, I've got some Scorpions to paint.

kid_happy wrote:

Stelek wrote:GW put the rule in for 25% casualties so fearless units are not affected and they don't have to say that in every description. They can just have the main rules say it for them.

Not too sure what Fearlessness has to do with this.

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties "

would affect a fearless unit the same as this would:

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test "

Less text in the second one and certainly clearer as to when the test would be made.

as said in the bgb fearless units AUTOMATICALLY pass morale checks. so
fearless units takes moral check, but cuz of the fearless rule it automatically passes it. rendering the power useless

enmitee wrote:

kid_happy wrote:
Not too sure what Fearlessness has to do with this.

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties "

would affect a fearless unit the same as this would:

Holy Promethium: "will force a unit it causes a casualty upon to take a morale test "

Less text in the second one and certainly clearer as to when the test would be made.

as said in the bgb fearless units AUTOMATICALLY pass morale checks. so
fearless units takes moral check, but cuz of the fearless rule it automatically passes it. rendering the power useless

Yes, but both indicate that the unit takes a morale test which a fearless unit automatically passes, the extra text "as if it had just suffered 25% or more casualties" has no effect on how a fearless unit treats a morale test, if it's called a morale test they automatically pass, fullstop, that's all there is to it.

I'm in the boat that because they have that addition to the sentence then you treat it exactly as though it was 25% casualties, and take it at the end of the phase (immediately referring to the fall back relative to the test as others have pointed out) and not testing more than once if you do actually take 25% casualties.

Yep, very much in the boat that you treat it exactly like you had taken 25% casualties from shooting, which means you only take one test at the end of the phase. The whole "as if they had taken 25% casualties" overrules anything else, and points to that section of the morale rules, where it is very explicit, one check.

Amazing, your insight into the mind of the development staff.

It's just RAW. Fear of the Darkness even throws in a sub clause that covers Fearless. It says nothing about immediately. All it say is it counts as though it had taken 25% casualties, which you then follow the normal morale rules for taking 25% casualties, but with a -2 modifier. It then states that all normal modifiers and/or exceptions apply (ie, units that never fall back are immune to this power), which covers fearless.

You have a predisposition to assume that your mother always wants you to put your clothing away now, and not at your first convenience. In this instance the blanket rule for morale checks caused by taking 25% casualties is that you only take a single test a turn, and it is taken at the end of the round. If the wording of a test includes immediately and 25% casualties I would say you are right, that it is an immediate test, like tank shock and the rest of the rules follow like you took 25% casualties. But any power that does not include that wording and that only counts as shooting would follow the normal rules

It's also interesting to make a poll this early into the new edition. We have been running a league, and even half way through it we are finding more and more rules that people are playing totally wrong as a whole. To me it seems that raising awareness then seeing how people play a month down the line would be a more realistic poll. There is so much right now that people don't even realize they are playing the old way.

Yet, it's not. And your assumptions on what is RAW are based off your 4th edition GW assumptions, which isn't 5th edition GW.

So, whatever.

A is what i voted. I assume those special abilities were intended and thus written to have a devastating tactical effect on the game. thus being able to run someone off the board seems entirely feasible when faced with terrifying units or psychic abilities of awesome might... and yes you might scurry a bit fast if you also getting shot up while fleeing in terror in the first place.

.02

Option C as expressed above "as if 25%"

Stelek wrote:In short, you take a morale check from 25% casualties at the end of the phase (because the main rulebook tells you at the end of any phase in which you ACTUALLY suffered 25% casualties you have to take the test) but these abilities direct you to take the test 'as if you had suffered' which is not actually suffering 25% casualties.

All of them tell you to take the test, why would you assume you take it at the end of the phase? If the rule does not tell you to take a test later, you do it now.

I would assume you take the test at the end of the phase because that's what the rules say to do. If you actually take 25% casualties, do you test immediatly or do you wait till the end of the phase? You wait till the end of the phase. So if you take a test as if you had suffered 25% casualties do you take it immediatly or do you wait till the end of the phase? I can't see how the answer to the two could be different when one tells you to do things exactly like the other. The rules for taking 25% casualties say to take the test at the end of the phase so that's what you do for both. The only difference is that in some of the powers, you don't have to actually lose models. Seems open and shut to me but obviously you think differently. So, where in the rules does it say to take the test immediatly? The only mention of immediatly that I can find anywhere is once you've failed the test, but at that point I think everyone already agrees on what happens.

When do you take morale tests when a unit suffers 25% causalities? Immediately? I would think not. It happens at the end of the phase, so the "as if it had taken 25%" implies that you take it when you normally take the 25% test. (at the end of the phase)

Not much of a 4th ed assumption as much as a 5th ed assumption. I assume that any morale checks caused by 25% casualties are taken at the end of the phase they were caused in, as this is the 5th ed rules. When a rule, written for 4th ed, states that you treat it as you had suffered 25% casualties I assume that since I am using 5th edition rules, I would use those rules to figure out how morale was checked. I think you have your logic flipped. You are assuming it is like 4th ed. I see no other way to read it by RAW. If it said it was an immediate test, I would assume otherwise as that conflicts with the 5th ed rule for morale checks. But wouldn't the 5th ed rules still trump any 4th ed wording?