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OK, per the Eldar Guardian thread, there's a question of what I'm advocating for.

I want the default Craftworld to be more like Biel-Tan, with more of an emphasis on the Aspects which are emblematic of the Eldar way of fighting. The current Guardian-heavy approach gives a Aspects as Elites were fine when Chaos only had generic Marines as Troops. But now that Skittle Cult Marines are Troops, the Eldar should be afforded similar flexibility.


*** Codex: Eldar ***
rev.3

** Special Character HQ **
Avatar (WS10 BS5 S8 T6 W4 I8 A4 Ld10 Sv2+/4++ = 250 pts)
- Fleet of Foot, Fearless, FNP Monster

Phoenix Lord - units of 10 Aspects may be taken as Troops and may be used to meet compulsory minimums

HQ
Autarch
- Fleet of Foot

Farseer

Elite
Exarch Court (3..10)
- Transport: Wave Serpent or Falcon (if NO Jetbikes or Jump Packs)

Seer Council (3..10)
- 0..3 Farseer upgrades
- Transport: Wave Serpent

Wraithguard (3..10, A2 FNP, A2 Wraithcannon) - units of 10 may be taken as Troops
- Transport: Wave Serpent

Harlequins (5..10)
- Fleet of Foot, Jump Infantry

Rangers / Pathfinders (3..10) - units of 10 may be taken as Troops

Troops
Dire Avengers (5..10, A2 8 pts)
- R18" S4 AP5 A2 Shuricat
- Fleet of Foot
- Transport: Wave Serpent or Falcon

Striking Scorpions (5..10, 16 pts)
- Transport: Wave Serpent or Falcon

Fire Dragons (5..10, Sv3+) - non-compulsory
- Transport: Wave Serpent or Falcon

Howling Banshees (5..10, 16 pts) - non-compulsory
- Fleet of Foot
- Transport: Wave Serpent or Falcon

Warp Spiders (5..10) - non-compulsory
- Jump Infantry

Transport
Wave Serpent
- Energy Field - 4++ Cover Save

Falcon
- Holofield = <6" = 6++, 6-12" = 5++; 12-18" = 4++, 18"-24" = 3++ Cover Save

Fast Attack
Shining Spears (3..5)

Swooping Hawks (5..10)
- Jump Infantry, Fleet of Foot

Vyper (1..3)
- Energy Field or Holofield

Heavy Support
Dark Reapers (3..5)
- Slow & Purposeful
- Transport: Wave Serpent or Falcon

Wraithlord
- Fleet of Foot

War Walker (1..3)
- Energy Field

Fire Prism
- Holofield

non-FOC Troops
Guardians (5..10, Sv4+ = 8pts)
- Fleet of Foot
- Warlock included
- Shuricat, Lasblaster, or SP&CCW
- AGP optional
- Transport: Wave Serpent

non-FOC Fast Attack - units of 10 may be taken as Troops
Guardian Jetbikes (3..10) -
- Warlock included
- 1 in 3 Shuricannon upgrade

non-FOC Heavy Support
Guardian Support (5..10)
- Heavy AGP (1..3)
- Slow & Purposeful

Comments

Overall, Eldar are a bit fightier, with more good fighting options. This is deliberate, as the Tau and IG clearly dominate the ranged shooting design space, while Sisters are close-in shooting. So it's really up to the Eldar to lead as the tough S3 T3 close-combat guys. The Eldar minimum armor save bumps to Sv4+, to distinguish from the Sv5+ Dark Eldar.

Avatar should be special, as there is just one per Craftworld. A stats boost (Fleet, FNP, Sv2+) for the Greater Daemon of Khaine makes him more dangerous and harder to kill, and appropiately more expensive.

Elites get a major rework. The Court and Council move here, as 5th does away with Retinues for ICs. Rangers / Pathfinders move up, but gain the ability to be taken as Troops for Alaitoc, just as 10 Wraithguard may be taken for Iyanden. Wraithguard get FNP as they hardly perceive this world.

Troops pick up most of the Aspects. But the "sexy" ones (Spiders w/ JP, Banshees w/ PW, Dragons w/ Fusion) can't be taken for compulsory Troops. Note that Dire Avengers would sub in as Ulthwe's "Black Guardians".

Transport picks up the Falcon, ending the nonsense of it being a MBT. Energy Field / Holofield are clarified as different kinds of Cover saves. Energy Field is better at low speeds, Holofield better at higher speeds.

Fast Attack is deliberately unremarkable.

Heavy Support is similarly unremarkable, aside from Wraithlord gaining Fleet for the HtH charge.

Guardians generally drop out of the picture, except as supplemental forces, although they are made more flexibile, while being given a points sink in their Warlock. Jetbikes are similar, but gain a mandatory Warlock as they move to Fast Attack - no more 3 Jetbike Troops! Heavy AGPs can add some bulk for flexibility.

From a Craftworlds standpoint, all of the standbys can be built. But a lot of additional options are opened up, and armies can be themed around Aspect Temples again.


rev.3 - added PL placeholder, bumped WG to A2 / A2.

I fell out of my chair when YOU suggested flexibility in a 40K army list.

Mostly flexible anyway.

Not sure why some aspects are compulsory and some aren't though. Is there reasoning behind this?

I'd like a decent CWE book to be done by GW, but so many players who were facing Eldar hated it I don't know if that's doable.

If Phil Kelly wasn't beloved by most of the community, not sure who'd have done the Eldar justice and I don't know if even he can manage to do a CWE book without breaking the game.

I like it, though I see no reason why Seer Councils and Exarch Councils couldn't be taken as retinues for Farseers and Autarchs, respectively, other than that retinues are somewhat less common in fifth edition.

I think they're removing retinues from the game. Since the current Eldar book, there have been no retinues AFAIK.

I don't think spears should be 3-10, 3-5 was fine but if you want it bigger then 3-7 would be a good value.

Personally, I think Exarchs should be WS/BS6 and 2 wound models (and pay for it in points) because fluffwise they are meant to be AMAZING, perhaps even better fighters than the Autarch - but still limited to their aspect (unlike 2nd ed toolbox exarchs). At the moment, they seem like glorified sergeants.

i dont like the way you are making this as you are only looking out for your own interests as a Biel-Tan player and have a bias towards some aspects aposed to others. i think that aspects should work in the same way as wraithguard, take ten and they can be troops but not this bitsa style, sorry, read the old codex:craftworlds and look there but i dont like this, i am an ulthwe play.

Dire Avengers should be the only ones who get the treatment as they are stated as the most common and all-round aspect.

Also, why were Scorpions chosen as the other 'compulsory allowed' choice over Banshees? Backgroundwise, Banshees have a claim to be the second most common in Jain-Zar's profile: She is very active in going around and having shrines founded.

Squig_herder wrote: i think that aspects should work in the same way as wraithguard, take ten and they can be troops but not this bitsa style, sorry, read the old codex:craftworlds and look there but i dont like this, i am an ulthwe play.

I really like this idea. The eldar don't fight like any other armies in 40K. 5th edition punishes them a little for their "should I be a troop or elite" ambiguity. This sounds like a very sensible solution to the problem.

A small squad of scorpions could sneak around doing their elite stalker stuff while a larger squad secures objectives. Rather brilliant in its simplicity.

I didn’t vote because I’m half and half on it. I like that you gave slow and purposeful to dark reapers and the support guns – makes sense. Making falcons transports is new concept not sure how I feel about it.

I like how you used the method of removing units from the FOC. I would have it so for every two squads of guardians as troops you could take a warwalker squad or support weapon squad as a heavy the does not take up FOC.

Seer councils and Exarch courts should be in the HQ section not elites. GWS should just remove the number restriction on troops. That would clean up some of the problems with the eldar armies right now I have 6 units of guardians, 3 jetbike squads, 2 rangers squads, and a squad of dire avengers.

I was hoping for a more interesting split, rather than results right down the middle. Oh, well.

Anyhow: answer time!

Stelek wrote:Not sure why some aspects are compulsory and some aren't though. Is there reasoning behind this?

Actually, yes. The basic Aspects are equipped with basic gear (Shuricat or SP&CCW). The others are much fancier (Melta, SP&PW, multi-Jump), so they are potentially abusive en masse. At least, moreso than Cult Marines, which are still largely armed with B&BP&CCW.

Salvation122 wrote:I like it, though I see no reason why Seer Councils and Exarch Councils couldn't be taken as retinues for Farseers and Autarchs, respectively, other than that retinues are somewhat less common in fifth edition.

You answered your own question. In 5th Edition, ICs like Farseers & Avatars don't get Retinues as "free" HQs that don't appear on the FOC. Instead, they join Retinue-like units that consume an Elite choice.

Daba wrote:I don't think spears should be 3-10,

Personally, I think Exarchs should be WS/BS6 and 2 wound models (and pay for it in points) because fluffwise they are meant to be AMAZING, perhaps even better fighters than the Autarch - but still limited to their aspect (unlike 2nd ed toolbox exarchs). At the moment, they seem like glorified sergeants.

OK, Spears can go back to 3-5. No biggie.

I could see Exarchs either way. Or both, at different points costs. Probably 2 steps are better - Exarch Sergeant has 1 power, Exach Hero has 2 powers and better stats.

Squig_herder wrote:i dont like the way you are making this as you are only looking out for your own interests as a Biel-Tan player and have a bias towards some aspects aposed to others. i think that aspects should work in the same way as wraithguard,

read the old codex:craftworlds and look there but i dont like this,

i am an ulthwe play.

I don't think that you really understand what my proposed Codex is capable of. It can do pretty much everything that the current Codex can do, *and* it can also field full Skittles Aspect Biel-Tan - something that the current Codex does rather poorly.

Also, I have every Eldar list going back to Rogue Trader, so I think I have a pretty good idea of what I want the list to do (or not do).

OK, what can't you do with your Ulthwe army? If you're Ulthwe, you can field Farseer HQs with Seer Council(s) as Elite. You aren't forced to take a Seer Council, nor are you prevented from having your Farseers stay as ICs. For Troops, you can take Dire Avengers as your Black Guardians, gaining +1WS, +1BS, +1Ld over regular Guardians, but you aren't limited in number or required to take them. Your regular Guardians gained Sv4+ and the Lasblaster option. Your Jetbikes are still there, and you can take bunches to have them as Scoring Troops. Everything else is still there. The only change is that you're required to take a Warlock, which you should be doing as Ulthwe, anyways.

Daba wrote:Dire Avengers should be the only ones who get the treatment as they are stated as the most common and all-round aspect.

Also, why were Scorpions chosen as the other 'compulsory allowed' choice over Banshees?

Backgroundwise, Banshees have a claim to be the second most common

As above, Dire Avengers are shooty, so a CC Aspect is desirable as an alternative.

Scorpions have the benefit of having a standard Aspect statline and being armed very simply with BP&CCW.

Background changes every edition, so this is totally unimportant and can be ignored in favor of making a better list.

Grunt13 wrote:I like that you gave slow and purposeful to dark reapers and the support guns – makes sense.

Making falcons transports is new concept not sure how I feel about it.

for every two squads of guardians as troops you could take a warwalker squad or support weapon squad as a heavy the does not take up FOC.

Seer councils and Exarch courts should be in the HQ section not elites.

GWS should just remove the number restriction on troops. That would clean up some of the problems with the eldar armies right now I have 6 units of guardians, 3 jetbike squads, 2 rangers squads, and a squad of dire avengers.

S&P keeps Eldar firing on the move. Pure mobility, but some things move faster than others.

I figured to keep things simple - if it Transports, it's Transport. It's not like a Land Raider with massively heavier Armor & Weapons kit, so following the Rhino / Razorback split for SM leads to a Wave Serpent / Falcon split for Eldar.

I don't like attaching or linking things like that, as that's more of a Guard concept: buy the Command Squad, get a squad of Sentinels for FREE!

I'm OK with the number restriction, because it helps force players into having some kind of common structure for their armies. Besides, most of the newer armies can "break" it in some minor way, so no biggie..

As above, Dire Avengers are shooty, so a CC Aspect is desirable as an alternative.

Scorpions have the benefit of having a standard Aspect statline and being armed very simply with BP&CCW.

Background changes every edition, so this is totally unimportant and can be ignored in favor of making a better list.

But Scorpions don't have a normal CCW. The Scorpion Chainsword is as 'normal' as the Banshee Ignore Armour sword. Not to mention they get another attack.

I think fixing the Shuriken Catapult would go a long way; it should be better than the storm bolter.

Seer Councils / Exarch Council should go into HQ but not take a slot (like the current Warlock unit) - if they go into elites then probably all 'regular' aspects should go into Troops, and have the 6 restriction removed.

The problem with eldar is that they are supposed to have some of the best short ranged weaponry and high mobility, but are very fragile, like the DE.

However, that isn't the case. Guardians are fragile, but they can't kick out all that much firepower. 12' S4 Assault 2 at BS 3 just isn't a whole lot compared to everything else out there. The short range really limits you to one turn of firing, if you are lucky. That is why DA got bumped to 18' range.

They really needed to up the number of shots on shuricat weapons. Assault 3 rifles and assault 2 pistols.

Wraithguard need an extra 6' on their guns as well, or make them blast.

Daba wrote:But Scorpions don't have a normal CCW. The Scorpion Chainsword is as 'normal' as the Banshee Ignore Armour sword. Not to mention they get another attack.

I think fixing the Shuriken Catapult would go a long way; it should be better than the storm bolter.

Seer Councils / Exarch Council should go into HQ but not take a slot (like the current Warlock unit) - if they go into elites then probably all 'regular' aspects should go into Troops, and have the 6 restriction removed.

Rules-wise, there is nothing about Scorpions that can't be done with their statline. S4 A2 SP&CCW. Simple. No extra rules about power weapons, melta, etc. Rules-wise, they conform to the basic rules more than the Banshees.

The only way the Shuricat can be better than a Storm Bolter is if you make it R18" A2 Rending, and I sorely doubt anyone would accept that. Although, it would be closer to the Classic version. And Rending has come down quite a bit in power. I think I'd be OK with it just being a useful R18" vs the current R12". At least that way, they would have some useful standoff range.

If you go back to the top, you'll see that all of the "regular" Aspects (Avengers, Banshees, Dragons, Scorpions) were moved to Troops. Besides, when you look at how shiny the SM Veterans are becoming, Exarch / Seer Council makes a very fair Elite. The 6 restriction is universe-wide, and I don't think that a High-Elfy FOC exception is particularly desirable. Besides, Eldar would have Guardians to break the cap on Scoring Troops.

Durandal wrote:Guardians are fragile, but they can't kick out all that much firepower. 12' S4 Assault 2 at BS 3 just isn't a whole lot compared to everything else out there. The short range really limits you to one turn of firing, if you are lucky. That is why DA got bumped to 18' range.

They really needed to up the number of shots on shuricat weapons. Assault 3 rifles and assault 2 pistols.

Wraithguard need an extra 6' on their guns as well, or make them blast.

When I look at Guardians, I'm OK with the S4 AP5 A2 guns - that's better than anything except the Tau, which slot between the Guardians and Aspects. The problem is that they're WS3 T3 A1 with 12" guns, which means they need to be too close to survive. Extra shot doesn't change them - they still end up being 1-shot suicide squads when they use their Shuricats. An extra bit of range like the Dire Avengers gets their range back where it needs to be for a support/standoff unit. And the option for R24" Lasblasters gets them even farther back, option-wise where they should have been all along.

Wraithguard have been a problem unit for a long time. For starters, I'd want to see FNP on them, because I think that they're just a bit too easily killed. I'd rather have their guns go to as A2 instead of Blast. Then, if you look at 5 Wraithguard vs 10 Dragons, the survivability is similar, along with the shot count.


Good comments, thanks guys.

When I look at Guardians, I'm OK with the S4 AP5 A2 guns - that's better than anything except the Tau

And Ork Avenger Catapults.

Why would it not be accepted? it was actually the case in 2nd ed. The only difference between the Shuricat and the Storm Bolter was the Shuricat had better Armour Save Modifier. In 1st ed, the Shuricat was one of the best small arms you could get.

Wraithguard have been a problem unit for a long time. For starters, I'd want to see FNP on them, because I think that they're just a bit too easily killed. I'd rather have their guns go to as A2 instead of Blast. Then, if you look at 5 Wraithguard vs 10 Dragons, the survivability is similar, along with the shot count.

Just give them two wounds if they are killed to easily; they had two wounds in 2nd ed (and cost the same as it does now, when everything else cost more; a marine was 25 points, a Dire Avenger was 22 points).

If you go back to the top, you'll see that all of the "regular" Aspects (Avengers, Banshees, Dragons, Scorpions) were moved to Troops. Besides, when you look at how shiny the SM Veterans are becoming, Exarch / Seer Council makes a very fair Elite. The 6 restriction is universe-wide, and I don't think that a High-Elfy FOC exception is particularly desirable. Besides, Eldar would have Guardians to break the cap on Scoring Troops.

Good point, I didn't notice the amendment.

I still like WS / BS 6; W2 exarchs though, but I'm not sure if they would work in a unit like that..

Daba wrote:The only difference between the Shuricat and the Storm Bolter was the Shuricat had better Armour Save Modifier. In 1st ed, the Shuricat was one of the best small arms you could get.

I'm well aware of how good the old Shuricat used to be in RT and 2E. And it wasn't just "one of the best", because that implies that there were other races with small arms that were equal or better - it was clearly *the* best.

No, the real problem is that, if the Shuricat becomes a Rending Storm Bolter, the masses of SM (Hurr!) players would feel inadeqate.

Just give them two wounds if they are killed to easily; they had two wounds in 2nd ed

Of course, they also had an AV back then. W2 *and* FNP isn't a bad idea. It makes them into super-tough bricks, so the cost might take another look...

I still like WS / BS 6; W2 exarchs though, but I'm not sure if they would work in a unit like that..

Yeah, I'm not sure, either.

As someone who is in new to playing eldar but has played them on a regular basis for almost two years, I really don't see what all is wrong with the current Eldar codex in terms of flexibility. It allows you to do pretty much anything you want and still be a solid list, and under 4th had some flat out ridiculous builds.

While it may be cool to see some Biel tan all-aspect type lists again, trying to balance that while still keeping it capable of being used as an all-around list would be nigh impossible I think. Currently the Eldar codex is extremely powerful, fluffy (even for Biel Tan, as the DA aspect are perfectly fluffy as Troops in such an army) and flexible. It's got great shooting units, great fast units, great assault untis, great missile magnets, and more, in fact next to Orks its probably still the best book out there.

Eldar didn't get hit nearly as bad in terms of fielding fluffy armies as Chaos did (although granted it did get hit, we don't see the grousing about it that we still see about C:CSM) and have been hugely successful as a power army. Making their awesome units dedicated transports and Troops I don't think would help anything.

Now if seperate sublists with re-costings and unit restrictions/additions came out for individual craftworlds, basically as mini-codex's with some limits, I could see something cool and fun resulting, but just allowing a mix and match of everything to suit every sort of possible fluffy craftworld army will lead to horrifically abusive mix/match armies, even more so than the 4E Flying Eldrad Harlequin-Falcon circus.

Vaktathi wrote:As someone who is in new to playing eldar but has played them on a regular basis for almost two years, I really don't see what all is wrong with the current Eldar codex in terms of flexibility.

While it may be cool to see some Biel tan all-aspect type lists again, trying to balance that while still keeping it capable of being used as an all-around list would be nigh impossible I think.

next to Orks its probably still the best book out there.

Making their awesome units dedicated transports and Troops I don't think would help anything.

Now if seperate sublists with re-costings and unit restrictions/additions came out for individual craftworlds, basically as mini-codex's with some limits, I could see something cool and fun resulting, but just allowing a mix and match of everything to suit every sort of possible fluffy craftworld army will lead to horrifically abusive mix/match armies, even more so than the 4E Flying Eldrad Harlequin-Falcon circus.

As an 10+ year Eldar player coming from 2E/3E, I have a very different perspective than you do. In 2E and 3E C:CW, you could (and should) take Aspects as Core / Troops. In 5E, skittles Biel-Tan doesn't work, and I would like to see that return. Hence, this list.

OK, let's talk about balance issues with a Biel-Tan list. First, are there issues with the Aspects? Nope, because they're largely not fielded in a competitive environment. And largely unchanged from previous versions. But the real problem is that Harlequins are so good and compete so strongly with the HtH Aspects, that Banshees are completely redundant, and Scorpions largely so. Also, Fire Dragons are so much better than Wraithguard, that there is a similar situation writ small. So from a practical standpoint, those Aspects might as well be Troops to encourage some variety. IOW, it's the same issue that CSM had with trying to allow players to field "interesting" armies, and the best feature of that Codex.

What are the balance issues with the current book? Out of 5 Elites, only 1 (2, maybe) see play. Meanwhile, in Troops, there aren't *any* HtH units available, despite an overall army focus units that nearly uniformly engage at 12" range or less units... Yet the Troops aren't reflective of this, as Rangers and Guardians, tend to engage at 24"+ due to their Longrifles and AGPs, along with utter suck in HtH. Jetbikes don't engage in HtH either, as they're standoff with the Shuricannons and Jetbikes.

And for an T3 army that supposed to engage at <12", the Sisters do a great job at that with their Bolters, Meltas and Flamers.

So the Eldar army design is very much out of whack, primarily because the Aspects are in the wrong part of the list, just like the earlier CSM books. Fixing that is relatively easy, and quite desirable. And it potentially results in an army that looks like the book cover: Scorps & Banshees leading the way forward.


Yes, Eldar was stronger when everything was Scoring. But under 5E, I think CSM is almost certainly stronger than Eldar. Under 5E, taking 3 uber Elites in 3 Holofalcons isn't going to win nearly as many games. OTOH, CSM have amazing Troops and pay far less for their Transports, which anybody can use.


There are/were problems with Eldrad, Harlequins, and Falcons? Yes, under 4th Edition rules, mind you. But I see that as more of a cost issue than anything else, and 5th making all of them non-Scoring helps quite a bit. Moving Scorpions and Banshees to Troops, and the Harlequin competition problem goes away. Especially if you bump the Harlequin points a little. But as they're non-Scoring Elites, meh, who cares. Same with Falcons - whether they're Transport or Heavy matters little now, because they're still non-Scoring in 5E. And I re-tweak the Falcon Holofield as a high-speed cover save vs. a low-speed Energy field. The list will have a different texture, and allow the player to do more.


And no, there won't be any sublists except in Apocalypse. And quite frankly, I'm not seeing the basis for your theoretical objection. If Eldar get quality Troops, then that just makes them like Chaos and Orks and SM.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
As an 10+ year Eldar player coming from 2E/3E, I have a very different perspective than you do. In 2E and 3E C:CW, you could (and should) take Aspects as Core / Troops. In 5E, skittles Biel-Tan doesn't work, and I would like to see that return. Hence, this list.

I haven't had the opportunity to read the 2nd ed Eldar codex (just the Codex Imperialis, IG, Chaos, Tyranid and Ultramarines books) However looking at the Craftworld codex, it looked like a horrendous nightmare to play against

OK, let's talk about balance issues with a Biel-Tan list. First, are there issues with the Aspects? Nope, because they're largely not fielded in a competitive environment.

I would disagree with that assertion, I see Fire Dragons, Scorpions and Dire Avengers fielded all the time, and Banshee's aren't totally unknown, and Warp Spiders (when fielded properly) are *incredible* units and I see them quite often.

But the real problem is that Harlequins are so good and compete so strongly with the HtH Aspects, that Banshees are completely redundant, and Scorpions largely so.

Again, I would disagree here, especially with the advent of 5th edition. Scorpions are great HtH units, that can actually take a decent amount of shooting, infiltrate or outflank, all of which I have seen (and had used against me) to great effect. Banshees are great as well, just more specialized, stick them in after large MEQ units, and stick the Harlies into the Daemon Prince.

Also, Fire Dragons are so much better than Wraithguard, that there is a similar situation writ small

True, I won't argue that, but I don't see anything wrong with either unit from a design or costing standpoint, its just that fire dragons do the same job, just cheaper, although I find Wraithguard better suited to Apoc size games.

So from a practical standpoint, those Aspects might as well be Troops to encourage some variety

Variety however, doesn't mean its balanced. I would hate to face an army that has six scoring units of Fire Dragons and Scorpions.

IOW, it's the same issue that CSM had with trying to allow players to field "interesting" armies, and the best feature of that Codex.

The difference with Chaos cult troops however is that they aren't all hyper specialized, they are all variants of the same basic unit, just with different bonuses and costs. Save for berserkers, most are a short range "shoot them a time or two, then assault them" type unit, while berserkers just skip the first part. Aspects on the other hand vary from anti-tank, heavy cc, specialized CC, and medium infantry.

What are the balance issues with the current book? Out of 5 Elites, only 1 (2, maybe) see play.

I think I've seen every Elites unit fielded at least three times since May, especially Fire Dragons and Scorpions.

Meanwhile, in Troops, there aren't *any* HtH units available, despite an overall army focus units that nearly uniformly engage at 12" range or less units...

Storm Guardians aren't Troops? They aren't all that bad either, especially not after dumping a potential 3 flamer templates onto something and then killing it off in HtH.

Yet the Troops aren't reflective of this, as Rangers and Guardians, tend to engage at 24"+ due to their Longrifles and AGPs, along with utter suck in HtH.

true, they aren't designed for HtH.

Jetbikes don't engage in HtH either, as they're standoff with the Shuricannons and Jetbikes.

Again true.

And for an T3 army that supposed to engage at <12", the Sisters do a great job at that with their Bolters, Meltas and Flamers.

And Eldar don't do that great with Dire Avengers, massed flamer templates in Storm Guardian squads, etc?

So the Eldar army design is very much out of whack, primarily because the Aspects are in the wrong part of the list, just like the earlier CSM books.

Personally, I don't find this to be so, and I find Eldar to be probably my hardest regular opponent. I wont argue that it would be cool or possible to design an aspects-as-troops list, but allowing everything currently in the army at the same time I think would simply be too open to abuse.

Fixing that is relatively easy, and quite desirable. And it potentially results in an army that looks like the book cover: Scorps & Banshees leading the way forward.

Personally I don't see why they couldn't or don't do that already.

Yes, Eldar was stronger when everything was Scoring. But under 5E, I think CSM is almost certainly stronger than Eldar.

Personally I found that the main problem is most Eldar players keep relying on their skimmers being able to survive forever when a unit of CSM's hits it with 10 krak grenade attacks after shooting it with two melta guns. I've found that the lists that emphasize a couple static units acting as a heavy firebase (say pathfinders with Reapers) and a couple mech troop units that spend most of the game slinking until the time is right to pounce do much better than the skimmerspam lists that still think they are invulnerable to return fire and CC attacks. currently, eldar still have some of the best troops in the game with Dire Avengers and Path Finders, and the new template rules make Storm Guardians very viable as a shock flamer unit.

Under 5E, taking 3 uber Elites in 3 Holofalcons isn't going to win nearly as many games.

True, but that's because in 4th it was ****ing slowed and a braindead lemur could win with that.

OTOH, CSM have amazing Troops and pay far less for their Transports, which anybody can use.

Yes, however their transports don't have the speed, firepower, or survivability of Eldar transports, not by a long shot, and my CSM's still regularly get torn apart by a good Bladestorm volley, and god help them if they have to footslog somewhere and Pathfinders are shooting them. Dire Avengers aren't poor troops by any means, they have amazing firepower and can act as a semi-decent meatshield if they have to and are equipped to do so.

There are/were problems with Eldrad, Harlequins, and Falcons? Yes, under 4th Edition rules, mind you. But I see that as more of a cost issue than anything else, and 5th making all of them non-Scoring helps quite a bit.

Yes, however the main problem there was the slowed Skimmer rules coupled with the synergy between Spirit Stones and Holofields (which still is probably more powerful than it should be) and the ability of Harlies to wipe a unit and consolidate into another, and never really get shot at even when in the open. Eldrad is still slowed however

Moving Scorpions and Banshees to Troops, and the Harlequin competition problem goes away. Especially if you bump the Harlequin points a little.

I'd rather not face an army with that much heavy CC potential and *still* some absolutley horrific potential firepower in other FoC slots however.

But as they're non-Scoring Elites, meh, who cares.

You forget that they can still Contest, a single harlie in CC on an objective turn 6 can negate that objective for all 30 CSM's sitting on it.

Same with Falcons - whether they're Transport or Heavy matters little now, because they're still non-Scoring in 5E.

Please no, I'd rather not have to deal with more than 3 holofield tanks. Granted they aren't as bad as they were in 4th, but a Falcon without a cover save will still take as many lascannons to take down as a Leman Russ, and *far* more if its got a fortuned cover save. Fielding 6 Holofield tanks, even non scoring can still likely last to contest every objective on the last couple turns of the game and be incredibly difficult to tone down.

And I re-tweak the Falcon Holofield as a high-speed cover save vs. a low-speed Energy field. The list will have a different texture, and allow the player to do more.

Even with the toned down Falcon holofields, they still won't be easy to kill by any means, especially if that save can be Fortuned, although they will likely be getting a 4+ save anyway most of the time from intervening models, terrain, movement, etc.

And no, there won't be any sublists except in Apocalypse.

I didn't say there would given GW's current slow mode and inability to make and support balanced sublists, but I don't think a fundamental re-working of the eldar codex is needed either. They are still rock hard, they just don't auto-win games they would have under 4th, mainly due to the changes in the Skimmer rules.

And quite frankly, I'm not seeing the basis for your theoretical objection. If Eldar get quality Troops, then that just makes them like Chaos and Orks and SM.

that's assuming they don't already *have* quality troops, which is false. They may not have elite assault units, but they do have very good Troops. CSM's have good troops, but they are all variations on the same unit, whereas Eldar have an actually much greater variety in the purpose of their Troops. CSM troops are all at heart still close range "shoot and then whack them" soldiers, whereas Eldar have "shoot them again and again and again at short range" troops, Sniper troops, "burn them alot and then assault them" troops, and a Guard Infantry squad type unit in Guardians (which I won't argue as to their effectiveness, they *are* overpriced) but all in all, Eldar I think still have a greater variety. Ork seem to just have the most cost efficient troops in the game period.

My main objection (at least with the list presented) would be seeing an army of outflanking scorpions with Harlequin Elites coming in on non-HS Falcons supported by another three Holofield Fire Prism tanks, especially if I'm stuck playing Imperial Guard (and neither my Chaos or Eldar would be very happy to encounter that either), or mech fire dragons and DSing Warp Spider troops with outflanking War Walkers see what I'm getting at?

It would be very easy to make armies that can simply hold everything in reserve for a couple turns (thus negating 2 opposing shooting phases) and then come on from the table sides and essentially gain a first turn advantage on the bottom of turn 2, except also with several likely nasty assaults. Granted you can still do some of that now, but its a little more manageable.

CSM's still regularly get torn apart by a good Bladestorm volley

Mathematically, a squad of 'standard' Dire Avengers (squad of 10, Exarch with Shimmershield and both powers) bladestorming MEQs kills 3 of them.

27 [shots] * 2/3 [BS4] * 1/2 [S4 vs T4] * 1/3 [3+ save] = 3

With the exarch with the double catapults, he gives an additional ~0.7 to this (but loses the shimmershield/power weapon obviously).

5 [shots] * 5/6 [BS5] * 1/2 [S4 vs T4] * 1/3 [3+ save] = 0.69

One thing that irks me is point for point Orks outshoot Dire Avengers and get twice the wounds with better toughness (worse save though) and are better in CC (many more attacks).

I think the main problem basic weapon (shuricat) is not good enough for the background of the race.

What I would like is the Shuricat improved all round, storm guardians improved (somehow, I don't know how though; they are mathematically awful currently I think) and give Dire Avengers two CCWs or Truegrit and a regular (improved) shuricat to reflect their 'generalist' nature and the fact that all other aspects were born from Dire Avengers.

So for footsloggers, one will have in troops:

Storm Guardians: Assault
Defender Guardians: Middle/Close firepower
Dire Avengers: More expensive, but covers both areas with better stats than the other two to bridge the efficiency gap for the specialists in price.

Also, re: craftworld lists

The 3rd ed Biel Tan list used Striking Scorpions in transports as they were basically T3 footslogging Assault Marines and basically used them to Rhino Rush the enemies. Ulthwe used it's free BS4 guardians as they were much more efficient, but could abuse with the 100 man seer council of boxing warlocks.

The Alaitoc list was basically the regular list but had the disruption table for free with the 'limitation' of not being able to take so many guardian units.

Iyanden and Saim Hann were not as efficient as the above craftworlds, and were flavour lists. Iyanden can be fielded just about, Saim Hann is actually much more viable and used now Jetbikes moved to Troops and got a significant point decrease; they lost their unique unit but the models could be used as Autarch and Shining Spears/Jetbike Warlocks currently so weren't made totally redundant.

Alright ... my Eldar wishlist and comments.

Even as Beil Tann, I think the Dire Avengers should form the core so they are the flexible default of the army list. Between defend and a shimmershield these are somewhat tough HTH troops. Your opponent loses attacks and your unit has a 5+ invulnerable. Also an excellent firebase for the rest of your army. Perfect to soften him up, and handle his initial charge for your scorpions/banshees to charge in and destroy.

Scorpions and Howling Banshees as troops. I think it would be acceptable to allow them as troops with the restriction that to be a troop choice they have to be 10-man squads. Certainly the exarchs are powerful but forcing the 10 man squad makes them less flexible choices than when taken as elite choices.

Another option that might be too broken would be to give a phoenix lord one additional power. You take one and that aspect is now an allowable troop choice. I am just afraid you would see Maugan Ra and his buddies everytime. The less broken option is to allow taking one extra unit of that phoenix lord's aspect as a retinue for the phoenix lord.

I do agree the harlequins put way too much pressure on an eldar. (Why field banshees when I can field terrain-ignoring, rending troopers with even a little anti-tank power for little or no difference in cost. Or for a few more points I can field them with a cover providing member.)

I do think - especially since the new ork codex, the guardian defenders have been reduced to almost uselessness. With fleet of foot orcs (usually only once per game) that have 4 T and a better weapon, the guardian is somewhat worthless. I would offer one the
18" rapid fire shuriken catapult. No it is not awesome, yes it does make guardians unable to shoot and assault. These are guardian defenders so I think giving them a low ROF to equal their dire avenger brothers range but account for them not being totally taken up with the art of war gives you that feeling. Same gun but definitely not the same gunner. Getting the 18" range gets them out of the shoot/get charged range that they are dealing with now. The other is to give it a ROF of 1 and leave it assault but that takes away from a defender's flurry of fire for the ability to charge in with S3 WS3 troopers. They are not professionals so I think rapid fire solves it better. My other arguement is that GD are overpriced. No one can sell me that an orc boy costing 6 is that much worse than a GD. Let's see. 48 points gets you 8 orc boyz or 6 defenders. The orc moves within 18" and unloads 16 shots, hits 5 times,
wounds 3-4 times and you make one armor save 2-3 dead defenders. Or the defenders get ignored... 12 shots, 6 hit, 3 kills. Now it is orky turn, 10 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds maybe a save. Now the ork charges in. 5 defenders hit twice and maybe kill one. Being nice there are still 4 orks going against 5 living guardians... 12 attacks, 8 hit, 5 wound, being nice 3 killed. So at the end of a full turn of exchanged fire and melee we have 4 still standing ork boys and (if they didn't break) against 2 defenders. GD cost should be lowered OR their weapon improved or you will see the guardians as nothing more than a meatshield/objective holder.

For my personal bandwagon, please make the vyper (and any race's opentopped vehicle) into an attack bike. As it stands these are cool looking models that are too brittle to be played at their cost. A base vyper is soon to be pricier than a SM landspeeder. I have
a BS3 and open-topped. SM is BS 4 and not. Make them like attack bikes and I might even live with the cost... So instead of a vehicle it is a heavy jetbike. T3(4) Sv 3+ W2 Now you can lock it in hand to hand but now it might even make sense to field a squadron of them. I might actually get one chance to shoot them after they have been fired at. If they were a jetbike, the Saim-Hann wind rider host might actually have the right unit it should have as a support choice.

Daba wrote:

CSM's still regularly get torn apart by a good Bladestorm volley

Mathematically, a squad of 'standard' Dire Avengers (squad of 10, Exarch with Shimmershield and both powers) bladestorming MEQs kills 3 of them.

I think the main problem basic weapon (shuricat) is not good enough for the background of the race.

Assault 2 S4 AP5 is a decent start, but it really is a remnant of the 3E overcorrection nerf to the 2E Shuricat, which was similar to, but better than a Storm Bolter. The 12" range near is brutal, and Rapid-Fire getting double-tap-on-the-move really sealed them.

Daba wrote:What I would like is the Shuricat improved all round,

I'd just bump the range to 18" and make it Rending. The newly nerfed Rending isn't so unreasonable as a basic weapon for Xenos. And lord knows the Eldar Guardians and Avengers are sufficiently overcosted enough for such a weapon upgrade to be "fair".

Daba wrote:storm guardians improved (somehow, I don't know how though; they are mathematically awful currently I think)

Storms will always be bad - I think that's intentional.

Daba wrote:and give Dire Avengers two CCWs or Truegrit and a regular (improved) shuricat to reflect their 'generalist' nature and the fact that all other aspects were born from Dire Avengers.

Yes, A2 would make sense for them as generalists.

Daba wrote:The 3rd ed Biel Tan list used Striking Scorpions in transports as they were basically T3 footslogging Assault Marines and basically used them to Rhino Rush the enemies.

Except that that Marines were better because of cheap Rhinos. Given BA and BT have footslogging Assault Marines, Scorpions as Troops are reasonable and fair. They trade T4 for +1A, which is a typical trade for Eldar. But the idea that Scorpion spam should be a problem is wierd.

DAaddict wrote:Even as Beil Tann, I think the Dire Avengers should form the core so they are the flexible default of the army list.

Yes, DA should have a generalist shooty-flavored role similar to generic Chaos Marines. But to do that they need A2 and a gun upgrade. But they shouldn't be mandated as the only Aspect Troops pick.

DAaddict wrote:Scorpions and Howling Banshees as troops. I think it would be acceptable to allow them as troops with the restriction that to be a troop choice they have to be 10-man squads. Certainly the exarchs are powerful but forcing the 10 man squad makes them less flexible choices than when taken as elite choices.

I guess the 10-man rule would work fine, but 5-man CC units aren't so good, so I don't have a problem with making them Troops as-is.

DAaddict wrote:Another option that might be too broken would be to give a phoenix lord one additional power. You take one and that aspect is now an allowable troop choice. I am just afraid you would see Maugan Ra and his buddies everytime. The less broken option is to allow taking one extra unit of that phoenix lord's aspect as a retinue for the phoenix lord.

Yeah, this works fine for the Scorpion, Avenger, Banshee, and Dragon Lords, as I already have them as Troops. I agree that it would be wierd for Hawks and unbalancing for Reapers. I would suggest that this not be a necessary power, even though it's desirable. The retinue option isn't bad, but have the PL sacrifice IC status and Exarch upgrade option for it, so the choice is: PL as IC, or PL as super-Exarch in squad.

DAaddict wrote:I do agree the harlequins put way too much pressure on an eldar.

And that is why they stay as Elites, while Scorpions and Banshees go to Troops in some way. Remove the competition, and the problem goes away.

DAaddict wrote:guardian defenders have been reduced to almost uselessness. I would offer one the 18" rapid fire shuriken catapult. ... My other arguement is that GD are overpriced. ... GD cost should be lowered OR their weapon improved or you will see the guardians as nothing more than a meatshield/objective holder.

Defenders are horrible for their points. 18" Assault 2 as the basic weapon, with option for 24" Assault 2 Lasblasters makes them OK. Then discount the AGPs by a few points, similar to the new SM Tacticals.

DAaddict wrote:make the vyper (and any race's opentopped vehicle) into an attack bike. As it stands these are cool looking models that are too brittle to be played at their cost. A base vyper is soon to be pricier than a SM landspeeder.

The 3E / 4E vehicle costs are way out of line. They will come down appropriately. Especially when Eldar (finally) get their sexy new sport-Jetbikes.