Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

NOTE: IF YOU ARE JUST INTERESTED IN LOOKING AT THE LIST, THE PILE OF PARAGRAPHS BELOW IS IRRELEVANT...


I'm currently traveling around Europe but in a few month time will be setting up digs in a major British city to live and work for a while.
While I have been interested in 40k for around 8 years (and been a member of Dakka via one alias or another for as long), and played a few games, I have never actually completed an army.


I am really interested in involving myself in the hobby and finally completing an army. I have a feeling that being in a major city with regular opponents will encorage me to paint (love to model, not so painting). I consider myself, somewhat, above average at converting and painting. This is mainly because I am fairly anal about posing//modeling//painting and (skill set allowing), a perfectionist. Of course this isn't always a good thing (I.E. No army complete in 8 years! )


With the marine kits so versitile, I have narrowed down to doing a Marine army of sorts. I also plan on dipping some Orks, but that isn't really my main objective.
Now.
Whilst the army will be a marine army, my desire to convert models has dissuaded me from any army that uses tacticals as their troops choice. I'm not really fond of the, generally, static poses that the standard bolter marine has. Plus, as I intend on taking the utmost of care when creating and modeling the army, I don't exactly want to just churn out 'Trooper A', 'Trooper B', 'Trooper C'. Thus an army with a smaller model count would suit my slow army building style.



Currently I have 5 options for the army:

Option A = Grey Knights.
These would be plastic and converted from scratch

Option B = Deathwing
Termies not as dynamic as GK though...

Option B, C, D = Home grown chapter (white with blue robes/tabards. Silver trim. Similar to Misgula's marines)
Either Assaulty BA, Variant of new C:SM (Shrike//Sternguard guy), Or Cult troops from C:CSM



So, more rambling.
While I am interested in creating an army that is visually stunning, I don't want to be sent home with my tail between my legs every game. The home grown chapter is more adaptable to different rules sets (I.E. If I don't like the play style, I can always adopt a different set of rules and avoid bitching like all the poor DA players ) but I keep coming back to the 5th edition rules and how cool it is to have either PAGK or Termies as troops (which obviously couldn't change their spots). So with that said, which is more likely to be competitive? Pure Grey Knights or pure Deathwing?





Oh yeah, better put a list up here! Might be out by a few points as I am going off a downloaded copy of the codex

1500PTS PURE GREY KNIGHTS

HQ
1 Brother Captain (W/Psycannon + Holocaust) 91pts
4 GK Termie Retinue (W/ Psycannon) 209pts


TROOPS
1 Justicar (W/ Frags + Targeter) 252pts
8 PA Grey Knights

1 Justicar (W/ Frags + Targeter) 252pts
8 PA Grey Knights

1 Justicar (W/ Frags + Targeter) 252pts
8 PA Grey Knights


HEAVY SUPPORT
1 Grey Knight Dread (W/TL.LAS + Missle+ Ex. Arm + Smoke) 148pts
1 Grey Knight Dread (W/TL.LAS + Missle+ Ex. Arm + Smoke) 148pts
1 Grey Knight Dread (W/TL.LAS + Missle+ Ex. Arm + Smoke) 148pts



Now I have a few issues with this lst.
1) No mobility or transportation for anything
2) Mixed weaponry on dreads not great against TMC
3) Landraiders are godly, but two are hard to fit in 1500pts. At 2000pts, easy, but then I have 2 dreads on the shelf painted as grey knights that I cannot use...
4) How would this matchup against a good Deathwing list? (I.E. not head to head, but against other armies?)\

i think this list would get owned quickly. i play marines and my list has more models and more fire power but your list does look fun to play.

Lose the holocaust with the new counter charge you're going to hit maybe 3 models and the perils of the warp risk isn't worth it.

The psycannon is good since our terminators can't have assualt cannons and they ignore invulnerable.

The PAGK squads have a good number, the frags only effect the justicar (all be it that is 3 power weapon attacks at WS5 S6)

The dreads are a good call at 1500 points. Good weapon combos as well. Also remember that a GK dread has a WS of 5 so if you need to CCW one you'll be better than the average dread.

In my first tournament I tried to run something similar to this save that it had two raiders instead of dreads and I got smashed to bits. If you are a first time player the combination of an outdated codex and some worthless special skills (Aegis and Shrouding are the bomb though) might turn you off the game completely.


I supplimented my GK's with inducted guard. I know have:

GMGKT
4 GKT

3 7 man PAGK squads w/meltabombs

2 25 IG platoons 2 lascannons and 2 autocannons

Leman Russ Battle Tank
Land Raider
Land Raider Crusader

it sucks that I have to bring in help, but hell it works.

Well, traditionally grey knights are horrible against anything with tanks, but you fixed that with your dreadnoughts.

maybe if you got rid of the dreads and got some tank hunting guard or space marines you would have a real threat to just about anything

personally my favorite unit in that codex is the vindicare 'cause it can snipe the big bad guys even if their in a squad due to his marksman thing. This makes them the bane of all mostrous creatures, and that termie squad could probably mop up anything that the vindicare couldn't get

Overall though i think it looks like a cool army but you need to get rid of at least one dreadnought to free up some poiints for more men

you cant take space marines with grey knights. You can take guardsmen though. I took a russ for the s8 ap3 marine killing cannon (which are the bane of GK with the PA) plus it has 3 heavy bolters, but you do have to take a minimum of 2 guard platoons. You dont really have many options available with only 1500 points and still hold true to the GK's

No one else?

Well I can tell you've been around here because that's a list I've seen thrashed out on this site. If you are concerned about mobility you can teleport the terminators and one PA squad. Before building, I would try to look over the "top lists" for the army just because I know the build you have posted here and I know it is optimized for fourth edition rules. It's too early in the morning for me to be stoking the flames of my forge of theoryhammer, but were I you, I might contemplate basing it on LRCs rather than dreads.

Good choice giving Holocaust only to the Brother-Captain by the by. You don't want S6 AP1 on a 1/18 chance (2 or 12 on 2D6) cooking off your entire squad.

A note on larger cities: it could be better to find your group first prior to building. It would be a shame to put effort and time let alone money into a force only to have it derided as "beardy" or "gay" by those with whom you would play.

Also while true RAW players will not hold you to it until the FAQ is issued, don't count on being able to dodge the bullet on Sustained Assault versus Chaos due to the mere fact that there is no longer such a thing as a Daemon Pack. I think even yak would rule against that one and you'll guaranteed meet persons far less reasonable than our dear moderator in your gaming.

Really?
I would have thought that a 4th edition list would have included smaller sized troop choices.

As for the Brother C. Being given holocaust, its only because he gets it for free. I hadn't even thought about the possibility of killing off large portions of the squad.

Good call on figuring out the meta before actually building.

Anyone else with any other opinions?

Erm let's see:

Your brother captain should have holocaust, btw--his squad won't be affected if he kills himself with perils. Only termie squad leaders acting as a focus have that issue. Your Brother Captain does not get Holocaust free, by the way. It's 20 points.

Other than the termies, it's horrible.

Here's why:

You have no psycannons on your grey knights. They have targeters....for some reason....and to fire, they need to be within 24" of the enemy...and they have the shrouding...which is useless at that range...

You are using GK Dreads to knock out enemy tanks....but they don't so you won't like facing vehicle armies...

Here's how to fix it:

Run smaller GK squads. Use Psycannons and sit on your board edge like you are supposed to.

Use Imperial Guard to bolter your numbers. As you might have guessed, running 5 billion guys beats running 9 guys. Even in the comics.

If you are going to bring vehicles and they aren't Imperial Guard tanks....run GK Land Raiders. They are the best in the game right now. Use them!

Figure out if you want a shooty army or a assaulty GK army.

Then we can help.

Discount storm bolter fire as part of your shooting. Your guys cost too much to count on them as primary firepower.

Great backup/secondary firepower, but you can't sit at 24" and trade punches with ANYONE using Grey Knights, because you lose that fight every time. Did in 4th, and in 5th everyone has cover saves...so it's even worse.

It would have to be a shooting army. Or at least a psudo shooting army. GK can't really match most assault based armies.

Oversight on the holocaust thing. Just read the rules incorrectly. Wishful thinking.

Why aren't the targeters a good idea. Measure first for 1pt, they seem like a bargain.

The below list has three less marines, and no dreads, but 2 Radiers. On paper, it seems weaker :-(

While I have not (and probably never will, play as many games as you Stelek) I have not minimised the squads as per your comments. I'm not yet convinced that sacrificing wounds for a few stationary strength 6 shots is all that hot.




GREY KNIGHTS

1 Brother Captain w/Psycannon = 91
4 Grey Knight Terminators w/Psycannon = 209


1 Justicar w/targeter + frags
7 Grey Knights = 227

1 Justicar w/targeter + frags
7 Grey Knights = 227

1 Justicar w/targeter + frags
7 Grey Knights = 227

Land Raider w/Ex. Arm + Smoke = 258
Land Raider w/Ex. Arm + Smoke = 258





NOW, a few more questions.....

1)Which guard units are worth inducting? Tankbusting squads of men? Or just their tanks?

2)Is a pure Grey Knight list weaker than a pure Deathwing list?

3)Total sidetrack:A Noise Marine is comparable in alot of areas to a PAGK. Am I right in thinking that a Noise Marine is valuable in a Slannesh list because it has units that can support the NM inherent weaknesses (whereas the Grey knights list doesn't have the same flexibility)?


Thanks to all who are helping me thrash this out.

Why would you put smoke on your Raiders? Can you fire with the machine spirit while using smoke?


Why would it seem weaker on paper? you've gone up by one more las cannon, your av has gone to 14, and you now have two heavy bolters.

Lurker wrote:

3)Total sidetrack:A Noise Marine is comparable in alot of areas to a PAGK. Am I right in thinking that a Noise Marine is valuable in a Slannesh list because it has units that can support the NM inherent weaknesses (whereas the Grey knights list doesn't have the same flexibility)?

Yep, mixed Slannesh lists are super scary for that reason. The other Cult Marines and Oblits along with Lash princes cover the weaknesses of NMs very well.

As for your list, I only see psycannon on there twice. You need that thing a lot more I think. Just run a ton of psycannons. As many as you can.

Everyone is focusing on your Grey Knights list...

I say go Deathwing! I think it will suit you better.

The new plastic terminators will be much easier to convert for starters, and the low model count means you can really take the time to make each model an individual. You can also make a much more competitive force without having to resort to things like spamming 3 identical units.

Pure Grey Knights are hard to play! There is a good article on this site about them. Also, as one of the smaller less popular codexes they are sort of doomed to slowly fall back into obscurity again and get outpaced by the more mainline armies. Deathwing, being a very popular Marine variant, will kick around for some time, like say the 8+ years it will take you to actually make your army!

One other thing - if you are a gamblin' man, I was rereading my codex after something was tickling me the other day, and I'm pretty sure if you take consecrated scrolls you could do two holocausts. With the 5th reword for templates IIRC being that you place them first and count the total number of NMEs covered prior to rolling for wounds, two 5" diameter templates could prove pretty freekin mean, even at the off chance of losing the whole squad. It's a 45-point one-off gambit, but could be worth playing a few times.

I don't know if inducting any IG at all is a good idea anymore. IG bleeds KPs like a twelve-year-old during...well, that's enough of that analogy, but you get the picture. Lascannon as have previously been discussed will have a difficult time hurting vehicles under 5th edition rules. Also, as inducted IG they will be forced to forfeit their doctrines, so there can be no drop meltas - which trade KP for KP - to assist your psychoconditioned psychopaths. The Russ isn't too bad a pick and does well against infantry. *Maybe* a scouting squad of autocannon sentinels could do okay, but you'd have to be cunning and stay at 37"+ from the NME and the nasty heavy bolters, flamers and other anti-horde weapons currently in vogue for Ork hunting which will incidentally also cook Sentinels like pigs in blankets. 6 S7 shots on the flank - IIRC Scouts can outflank? - could do a number on non-Monolith non-LR vehicles, and doesn't suck too much against infantry either. A lot of cover will be situational and defilade fire might turn into something convenient.

Also - check the erratta on psycannon before committing, RAW pre-erratta they ignore cover saves. If that is still the case they are excellent. Otherwise, I would consider making use of other options.

*smacks head* "1" superscript is =I= only. My bad.