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I had some 5th ed questions from some games last night:

Dawn of War deployment: We had an IG army on this deployment. We ruled that the IG player only got 3 units total on the table, not three Force Org chart slots worth of units, was this right? We also couldn't find an "all scouts start on the table rule" so they don't really get to?

Dawn of War first turn. We had a blood angels player with rhinos. He rolled a 1 on an overcharged engine roll as he was entering the board on turn 1 (this means the tank can't move that round). The rule states "You may declare that an eligible vehicle is going to use its overcharged engines in any Movement Phase just before you move it."

We ruled that it just stayed off the board and entered on turn 2 automatically. Was this right? Should the rhino have been in reserve instead, on the theory that by not entering on turn 1, the tank must have been placed in reserve under the reserves rule? Or should these rhinos not have rolled for engines on that turn since they were not "on the table?"

DoW deployment. Nope, not right. IG codex overrules main rules and allows the HQ platoon to deploy as a 'unit'. Also, the IG version of Scout in the codex does allow the sentinels to always deploy.

Rhino, nope again IMO. I think the rule on page 94 would kick in, the bit under arriving from reserve and special rules that would stop a unit from moving are ignored.

It's one saving grace about IG, if your army is set up right you can potentially bring on a squad of Sentinals, 2 Heavy weapons Squads and 110 men turn one!

On the IG issue, be aware it's ONLY the HQ that over comes the DoW deployment. The RAW on Infantry platoons is different enough to not side step that restriction.

On the BA question, since the rhino is off the table is it an eligible vehicle? Can models off the table use special rules before moving on? Would an eldar farseer be able to use fortune in the same circumstance? I THINK the answer is no, I have no RAW to back that up.

Hmm. So sentinals are super scouts. Crazy.

These are the wordings on the IG HQ and Troop Platoons:

Troops
"Each Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the Force Organisation chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves. Otherwise they function as independant units."

HQ
"A command platoon counts as a single unit for army selection, deployment and reserves purposes. However each sub-unit may deploy or arrive in a different location and act independently."

So since the Troops Platoons are a single choice on the Troops Force org chart, they are like the rhino and marines in the example, and each unit counts. But because the HQ "counts as a single unit" all of the HQ gets to deploy. Thats pretty wild, and not at all what I thought. Is this how other IG players understand it?

That's the way I understand it to work.

biztheclown wrote:HQ
"A command platoon counts as a single unit for army selection, deployment and reserves purposes. However each sub-unit may deploy or arrive in a different location and act independently."

So since the Troops Platoons are a single choice on the Troops Force org chart, they are like the rhino and marines in the example, and each unit counts. But because the HQ "counts as a single unit" all of the HQ gets to deploy. Thats pretty wild, and not at all what I thought. Is this how other IG players understand it?

If those are the rules, then those are the rules. It seems rather cut and dry to me. The HQ is one unit that can deploy separately. The troops are not.

As for the blood angles, from what I understand, units that are off the board at the start of their turn can not use their special abilities. Farseers can't use fortune, doom, or guide, chaos dreadnaughts don't roll for fire frenzy, and blood angle rhinos can't roll for overcharged engines. If they were able to use their over charged engines and were immobilized off the board then I would assume the rhino and it's passengers would be destroyed.

The overcharged engine is a whole different issue and probably needs it's own thread. The sticky point there is the line in Reserves about a rule that would prevent a unit from moving is ignored when moving on from reserves.

Yes, the Rhino would ignore this rule because of the rule that you ignore "special movement rules" that would prevent you coming onto the board.

Looked up the IG stuff myself, and yes, the HQ is one unit but the platoons are seperate units for deployment. Didn't realize Scout was printed there either... Woo Hoo! DoW just got a whole lot more fun for IG!

don_mondo wrote:Nope, not right. IG codex overrules main rules...

And the more specific rules for deploying in this single mission should override the general rule for deploying Imperial Guard.

You're saying the general rulebook is more specific than the general rule in the specific codex?

I'd say you follow the rules in the IG codex as they are more specific about how a Force Org choice is deployed than the rulebook is.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

On the Blood Angels rhino thing, I now think that the line from the reserves section should apply, even if the first turn move is not a "normal" reserves roll. It seems applicable, and is probably the easiest way to play this mission, both with these rhinos and other stuff like looted vehicles, Chaos Dreads, Troops with rage, etc. Normal movement mode for the first turn.

Still thinking about the IG Command Platoon thing....

Ghaz wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Nope, not right. IG codex overrules main rules...

And the more specific rules for deploying in this single mission should override the general rule for deploying Imperial Guard.

The problem is that the rules for that mission don't do anything to override what is stated in the codex. It says one unit from HQ. That is all it says. The codex says hat the entire selection is to be treated as one unit. So you can follow both rules, by placing the entire platoon.

The Dump has it. LoL that sounded filthy!

this is why DOW and kill points should be force org slots rather than individual units

NaZ

Ozymandias wrote:You're saying the general rulebook is more specific than the general rule in the specific codex?

I'd say you follow the rules in the IG codex as they are more specific about how a Force Org choice is deployed than the rulebook is.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Yes, I'm saying that the rules for deploying for one mission are more specific than the Imperial Guard rules for deploying for all missions provided in the main rulebook.

coredump wrote:The codex says hat the entire selection is to be treated as one unit. So you can follow both rules, by placing the entire platoon.

Except once again, the more specific rules in the mission say otherwise. They say to deploy upto two units. This overrides the rules that say that an Imperial Guard Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the Force Organization chart.

If the deployment was still by FOC choice, then yes, the IG would deploy whole platoons in DoW. Since it's not, and a Troops unit's transport counts as the second choice, the IG are relegated to the same status as everyone else: 2 UNITS, not choices.

biztheclown wrote:
Dawn of War deployment: We had an IG army on this deployment. We ruled that the IG player only got 3 units total on the table, not three Force Org chart slots worth of units, was this right?

No. As others have pointed out, you get to deploy two troop units, the whole HQ FOC slot and any Sentinels from FA assuming you b(r)ought any. The HQ units are considered one single unit for deployment, the troops are not (the wording for line infantry platoons and HW platoons is the same).

We also couldn't find an "all scouts start on the table rule" so they don't really get to?

Well, what does it say in the sentinel's scout entry? What does it say in other units' entries that have the Scout USR or the Scout ability or their own scout rules?

Ghaz wrote:
Yes, I'm saying that the rules for deploying for one mission are more specific than the Imperial Guard rules for deploying for all missions provided in the main rulebook.

I know you do but you have not given us any reasons so far (and we've discussed this elsewhere at some lengths already). It appears that calling the mission set up rules more specific is an arbitrary distinction.

Ghaz wrote:

coredump wrote:The codex says hat the entire selection is to be treated as one unit. So you can follow both rules, by placing the entire platoon.

Except once again, the more specific rules in the mission say otherwise. They say to deploy upto two units. This overrides the rules that say that an Imperial Guard Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the Force Organization chart.

Except now you are severely misstating the rule. Please go back and read the entry in the IG codex. It does *not* say the IG Platoon counts as "a single choice in the FOC". If it said that, then you would be correct.
What it *really* says is to treat the entire HG platoon as a single unit for deployment.

So to review your statement, it should read: "They say to deploy up to *one* units. The Codex rules say that an IG HQ platoon counts as a single unit for deployment."

Ghaz, reading your answers... I think you have missed the fact that everyone else here is only referring to *HQ* platoons, you are referring to Infantry platoons. Please be sure to watch the distinction.

f the deployment was still by FOC choice, then yes, the IG would deploy whole platoons in DoW. Since it's not, and a Troops unit's transport counts as the second choice, the IG are relegated to the same status as everyone else: 2 UNITS, not choice

Again, please go read the pertinent box in the IG HQ entry. It specifically says that the HQ choice *IS* a single unit.... for deployment purposes. And since we are talking about deployment in DoW, it certainly applies.

It does not say this for the infantry platoons, so they would deploy as one squad is one unit. But the HQ has different, and specific, rules.

From page 44 of Codex Imperial Guard:

Each Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the Force Organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves.

I'm not 'mistating' any rules, thank you. It's you who's using the wrong rules.

Ghaz wrote:From page 44 of Codex Imperial Guard:

Each Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the Force Organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves.

I'm not 'mistating' any rules, thank you. It's you who's using the wrong rules.

Yes Ghaz, I know you are using that rule, and that is the *wrong* rule.

If you actually read the post that Don Mondo made, and that you disagreed with, he *specifically* mentions the Command Platoon. (As does just about everyone in this thread.) Of course, I told you this last time, and you ignored it then too....

Now, since we are talking about the *command platoon*, when you quote the rule for the *Infantry Platoon*, you are using.... wait for it... the *wrong* rule.

So, this time go to p.39, and read the sentence that actually applies to the *command* platoon, and you will see that yes, you were misstating the rule.

No, I'm using the right rule. Where did I ever say anything about the Command Platoon? Seems to me that you're making assumptions

@Lord Solar Plexus, scouts(sentinals in this case) are not deployed in addition to the 2 units plus HQ.

Darrian13 wrote:@Lord Solar Plexus, scouts(sentinals in this case) are not deployed in addition to the 2 units plus HQ.

But sentinels are super scouts read the IG codex

Yes, since the codex has a more specific version of the Scouts rule concept, it overrides the core version. So, yes, the Sentinels can deploy along with 1 HQ UNIT and 2 Troops UNITS.

Because you quoted and responded to Don Mondo

Don Mondo wrote:DoW deployment. Nope, not right. IG codex overrules main rules and allows the HQ platoon to deploy as a 'unit'. Also, the IG version of Scout in the codex does allow the sentinels to always deploy.

then you quoted and responded:

Ghaz wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Nope, not right. IG codex overrules main rules...

And the more specific rules for deploying in this single mission should override the general rule for deploying Imperial Guard.

So yes, the topic was HQ command platoon, and you responded *directly* to that.

Not to mention that half the posts on this thread explained that the topic was the HQ platoon.

On the IG issue, be aware it's ONLY the HQ that over comes the DoW deployment. The RAW on Infantry platoons is different enough to not side step that restriction.

These are the wordings on the IG HQ and Troop Platoons:
(snip)
So since the Troops Platoons are a single choice on the Troops Force org chart, they are like the rhino and marines in the example, and each unit counts. But because the HQ "counts as a single unit" all of the HQ gets to deploy. Thats pretty wild, and not at all what I thought. Is this how other IG players understand it?

If those are the rules, then those are the rules. It seems rather cut and dry to me. The HQ is one unit that can deploy separately. The troops are not.

Looked up the IG stuff myself, and yes, the HQ is one unit but the platoons are seperate units for deployment.

And those are only the ones that occurred *before* your stated "And the more specific rules for deploying in this single mission should override the general rule for deploying Imperial Guard."

So no Ghaz, you were wrong. The fact that you keep fighting this reflects more about your inability to admit error than your knowledge of rules.

Even with the Infantry platoon, the BRB does not trump the IG, since they are not in conflict. So you are wrong both times.

But feel free to keep arguing.....

The fact that you keep fighting this reflects more about your inability to admit error than your knowledge of rules.

But feel free to keep arguing.....

I'm sorry, CD, are you new here?

biztheclown wrote:I had some 5th ed questions from some games last night:

Dawn of War deployment: We had an IG army on this deployment. We ruled that the IG player only got 3 units total on the table, not three Force Org chart slots worth of units, was this right? We also couldn't find an "all scouts start on the table rule" so they don't really get to?

Everything in the Command Platoon would get to deploy (however the Infantry platoons, while counting as a single Troops choice, are all still seperate units, thus only one squad in each platoon would deploy)

IG Sentinel Scouts rule allows them to be deployed even when they ordinarily would not, codex rule supercedes rulebook.

Dawn of War first turn. We had a blood angels player with rhinos. He rolled a 1 on an overcharged engine roll as he was entering the board on turn 1 (this means the tank can't move that round). The rule states "You may declare that an eligible vehicle is going to use its overcharged engines in any Movement Phase just before you move it."

We ruled that it just stayed off the board and entered on turn 2 automatically. Was this right? Should the rhino have been in reserve instead, on the theory that by not entering on turn 1, the tank must have been placed in reserve under the reserves rule? Or should these rhinos not have rolled for engines on that turn since they were not "on the table?"

no clue on this one sadly.