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In the new Space Marine Codex, Calgar has a rule called "God of War" (p. 84 Codex Space Marines) that allows himself, and any unit in the army with the "Combat Tactics" special rule to choose to pass or fail any moral check they are required to make.

My questions is, is choosing to pass a test without making any kind of roll, considered "automatically passing" when it comes to being subject to the "No Retreat!" (p.44 main rules) rules for working out the result of a HtH comabt said unit lost?

Of course.

The same to ironwill.

I would say yes, chosing to pass using this rule means passing the test without a roll being made which is exactly what constitutes automatically passing.

Nope. Automatically passing, ala Fearless, requires no test. And the ganking rules are there to prevent said Fearless units gaining an unrealistic or unfair advantage. In this case, no roll is made because they *cannot* fail it.

God Of War does not prevent them from falling back. Instead of the dice deciding however, you decide. The unit is at no point considered Fearless.

However, I've not played 40k in yonks. My argument hinges on one thing....a unit that passes it's Ld test for losing combat, that is not Fearless, does not take additional wounds, correct? I assume not, or the question would be a moot point.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Nope. Automatically passing, ala Fearless, requires no test. And the ganking rules are there to prevent said Fearless units gaining an unrealistic or unfair advantage. In this case, no roll is made because they *cannot* fail it.

God Of War does not prevent them from falling back. Instead of the dice deciding however, you decide. The unit is at no point considered Fearless.

However, I've not played 40k in yonks. My argument hinges on one thing....a unit that passes it's Ld test for losing combat, that is not Fearless, does not take additional wounds, correct? I assume not, or the question would be a moot point.

'No Retreat' doesn't specify that it works only on Fearless units. It works against units that are "immune to Morale checks for losing an assault, or [that] automatically pass them for some reason".

A Morale check means making a Leadership test (i.e. rolling the dice). If you get to choose to pass a Morale check without rolling any dice, guess what? You've automatically passed the test.


No Retreat would most certainly apply.

I agree with yakface here for sure

no different than if you choose to fall back with combat tactics and are caught.

if you didn't roll, then you automatically passed. simple enough

NaZ

How does choosing to fall back with combat tactics come into the mix here? Sure if you fall back with it and are caught you are subject to no retreat, but the same thing happens whether you choose to fall back or are forced to by failing a morale test in this case, whereas passing a morale test by rolling under your leadership and passing a morale test without even picking up the dice are very different matters in terms of no retreat.

Different rule. ATSKNF specifies that "no retreat" applies in that instance - so the "autopass" requirement of no retreat is irrelevant, you are put into no retreat by ATSKNF.

I just answered this on the AWC forum and I'm going to answer it the same way here.

"Choose to pass" is not "automatically pass." The unit COULD have failed but they didn't. That's not an automatic pass.

So "No Retreat" does not apply.

Probably the very reason that Calgar costs an ass-ton of points.

I agree with Brian P. The unit still makes a test, you as a player just decide what the numbers on the dice would read if you roll them. Thus, the effect of passing or failing the test is decided as normal, but the dice roll itself is irrelevant. Calgar's astronomically high point cost would support this interpretation.

Similar issues arise with the commissars and Boss Zagstruck. Since the FAQ states that the commissar rule does indeed function as "no retreat" most people, and ALL tournament judges, will apply the same standard to zagstruck and calgar.

So chosing to pass a test is not automatic? Rubbish. No roll is made (despite suggested phantom dice rolls that are incosequential) so I would say you automatically passed it. Automatic means there is no chance of it not happening, so if you choose to pass, with no roll, it's automatic!

Antonin wrote:Different rule. ATSKNF specifies that "no retreat" applies in that instance - so the "autopass" requirement of no retreat is irrelevant, you are put into no retreat by ATSKNF.

Actually, you're put into auto-pass by ATSKNF, which then triggers no retreat. You're not still broken if they catch you.

As far as Calgar, its not automatic. First- Automatic is defined as without outside influence. Thus if we were playing a game, and you shot my Assault squad led by a Chaplain from 10 men to 3 men after I make, or rather fail, my armor saves, they're fearless. I can get up and go to the john, and you know exactly what they're going to do automatically. If you do that to my tactical squad not led by anything or anybody, if I don't tell you what they're going to do, you have no idea if they pass or fail their test- thus failing the definitive test for "automatic"

Breton wrote:

Antonin wrote:Different rule. ATSKNF specifies that "no retreat" applies in that instance - so the "autopass" requirement of no retreat is irrelevant, you are put into no retreat by ATSKNF.

Actually, you're put into auto-pass by ATSKNF, which then triggers no retreat. You're not still broken if they catch you.

As far as Calgar, its not automatic. First- Automatic is defined as without outside influence. Thus if we were playing a game, and you shot my Assault squad led by a Chaplain from 10 men to 3 men after I make, or rather fail, my armor saves, they're fearless. I can get up and go to the john, and you know exactly what they're going to do automatically. If you do that to my tactical squad not led by anything or anybody, if I don't tell you what they're going to do, you have no idea if they pass or fail their test- thus failing the definitive test for "automatic"

Quite simply, this may work at your FLGS but in any other setting it is clear from the Commissar FAQ that "no retreat" applies to all of these weird LD special rules. The commissar had a much better case than the one presented here for Calgar. In the first place, the commissar actually has to roll a test and can fail it. Then by killing a guy the Commissar make the unit pass the test. As I said, if the official GW FAQ rules that "no retreat!" applies in these case--where you actually did roll and fail a test first--then there is not a chance in hell that Calgar will be exempt from "no retreat!"

It'll have to wait on an FAQ then because as-written Marines still have the option of passing or failing the test. Any time you have a choice, it's not automatic.

Is a Commisar fearless? I don't have the IG codex in front of me- and don't play them but reading two of them so I'm not suggesting, just looking for information- but if his Fearless works like a Chaplains, I'd say that's why they're subject to No Retreat as his Summary Excecution ends up with him taking command of the squad for the rest of the game. Especially since that hasn't been updated for Fifth Ed.

sourclams wrote:It'll have to wait on an FAQ then because as-written Marines still have the option of passing or failing the test. Any time you have a choice, it's not automatic.

You're just wrong I'm afraid. As much as I want you to be right so that I can say the same thing for Boss Zagstruck it's simply not the case. The choice is between failing the test or automatically passing it.

Actually the brunt of his statement is correct. It will have to wait on a FAQ.

Edit: Additionally, it appears Summary Execution is not a choice either... it IS automatic. It happens whether the controlling player is in the room or not.

There is no CHANCE of failing. There is a CHOICE of failing.

Automatic means there is no chance - in this context.

Shrug.

Actually Automatic means:

1. having the capability of starting, operating, moving, etc., independently:
2. Physiology. occurring independently of volition, as certain muscular actions; involuntary.
3. done unconsciously or from force of habit; mechanical:
4. occurring spontaneously

1. The choice doesn't have the capability of starting, or operating independantly of the controlling player.
2. Certainly the controlling player's volition is required to determine pass/fail.
3. As there are strategic and tactical repurcussions of either decision, its not done unconciously, nor from force of habit.
4. It does not occur spontaneously as its triggered by a specific set of events and circumstances.

Fearless has the capability, and in fact requires operating independantly of the controlling player in this set of circumstances. Combat Tactics alone precludes Fearless characters from falling back.
Likewise, Summary Execution occurs without the volition of the controlling player, as it occurs the moment the squad leader fails a morale check, whether the controlling player wants it to or not.

Taking it one step further, Combat Tactics states any non-fearless unit with Combat Tactics may choose to automatically fail. God of War allows any unit (Fearless or Not!) to pass or fail any morale check. So while the Fail from combat tactics has restrictions, and is automatic, the pass/fail from GoW is not automatic, nor does it have the Fearless restriction.

Breton wrote:Is a Commisar fearless? I don't have the IG codex in front of me- and don't play them but reading two of them so I'm not suggesting, just looking for information- but if his Fearless works like a Chaplains, I'd say that's why they're subject to No Retreat as his Summary Excecution ends up with him taking command of the squad for the rest of the game. Especially since that hasn't been updated for Fifth Ed.

No, the Commissar is not Fearless. He has the summary Execution rule instead, which (as already stated) requires the unit to fail a test before you can choose to use it.

For Calgar, it's much simpler. Simply put, did you roll the dice to pass or fail the Morale test? If no, then you have automatically passed or failed, at your choice. The fact you can choose one or the other means nothing, it's whether or not you rolled for it. So yes, No Retreat would apply. Post it to as many different forums as you can, the answer is still the same.

Breton wrote:Actually Automatic means:

1. having the capability of starting, operating, moving, etc., independently:
. . .
1. The choice doesn't have the capability of starting, or operating independantly of the controlling player.
quote]

The player? Wrong part of the discussion. The dice, the game, or perhaps the roll in question.
Independent of the roll we discuss, the player makes something to happen. . . wait for it. . . automatically.

yakface wrote:A Morale check means making a Leadership test (i.e. rolling the dice). If you get to choose to pass a Morale check without rolling any dice, guess what? You've automatically passed the test.

There you go, using logic again.

Crazy!

Brian P wrote:I just answered this on the AWC forum and I'm going to answer it the same way here.

"Choose to pass" is not "automatically pass." The unit COULD have failed but they didn't. That's not an automatic pass.

So "No Retreat" does not apply.

Probably the very reason that Calgar costs an ass-ton of points.

No he costs an ass-ton of points because being able to automatically keep your opponent bogged down in combat on YOUR turn is worth every penny you pay.

Choose to pass IS automatically pass.

Fearless units don't have this choice, see?

Please see Inquisitor Lords for how long there has been a 'choice' unit in the game and how it actually works, k thanks.

And have a nice day arguing this ad infinitum.

You lost me here...

The player? Wrong part of the discussion. The dice, the game, or perhaps the roll in question.

What is the wrong part of the discussion? If the player has no input, its automatic. A walker that loses an assault doesn't take a morale check. (Strangely this edition they're also immune to No Retreat") Its automatic, it operates independantly of the controlling player, fate, random chance, etc.

Independent of the roll we discuss, the player makes something to happen. . . wait for it. . . automatically

with "makes something to happen", I'm guessing your primary language is not English, so how about we both go slow, to avoid misunderstandings. Nothing a player makes happen is automatic. Automatic, by the definition given above, means the player could leave the room, and the event would still occur.

I'm with Breton on this one. Calgar is quite different from Fearless units, from Commissars, and from Zagstruk.

Commissars - pass the 2nd morale check without outside influences (choice or dice).

Fearless - pass all morale checks without outside influences.

Zagstruk - pass 2nd morale check without outside influences

Calgar - pass or fail any morale check with an outside influence (choice).

So for me, there's no point referring back to Commissars, Fearless units or Zagstruk for precedent because this doesn't compare like with like. I don't see anything in the context that changes the meaning of 'automatic' to exclude player choice as an outside influence or volition.

Effectively it makes Marine armies with Calgar immune from No Retreat unless they deliberately attempt to fall back from a lost combat and lose the sweeping advance check. That's certainly how I'll be letting my Marine opponents play it until an FAQ clears it up one way or another.

Which is certainly likely to happen. Both the FAQ, and getting caught by sweeping advances. Trying to fall back for a double-tap, or a round of pistol shooting, then re-assaulting is very, very tempting vs weak armored opponents.

On the bright side, this discussion has made me realize Calgar's GoW doesn't exclude Fearless like Combat Tactics does, which also has interesting applications.

I am in agreement with the "Choice does not equal Automatic" camp. I don't expect that GW will FAQ at all, or do so in a manner that is consistant with their use of language, but honestly I would make a point to discuss it with my opponant before the game to avoid issues.

olympia wrote:You're just wrong I'm afraid. As much as I want you to be right so that I can say the same thing for Boss Zagstruck it's simply not the case. The choice is between failing the test or automatically passing it.

The Marine codex is not exactly barren of Space Marine rules that ignore rulebook rules "because they're Space Marines". As has been stated before, Calgar works noticeably differently from the 4th edition precedence. It would surprise me not at all to find out that Calgar's rule is different because he's Calgar and he's different. Go look at the rules for Machine Spirit and Combat Tactics and tell me I'm wrong.

We can put logic aside because it's GW. We can put precedence aside because it's a new edition, pertaining to Marines, and precedence actually suggests that they get to be different just because they're new Marines. Til an FAQ comes out, your reasoning is about as good as 'Because my mom said so'.

Calgar gives you a choice. The choice is *not* automatic.

The choice lets you pass the test, without actually taking the test. When you pass a test without taking the test, it means you pass it automatically.

Yes, you get to choose whether you pass it automatically, but you still do.


You teacher says "We are taking a test today, you can take it, or just decide you pass." If you 'just decide' then you automatically passed it.


Some are getting hung up on getting a choice, and that the choice isn't automatic..... No Retreat doesn't care if you get a choice or not. It only cares if you had to take the test, or if you passed it automatically. And Calgar can.