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Ogryns have been accused of many things in the past, from being under priced for their stats to overpriced for their usefulness, under strength to over strength. However what they have never been accused of is being useful. Mostly, in my opinion, this is due to the fact that they are big delicious targets, and they aren't that hard to kill with a powerfist. So, some solutions to making them useful without completely screwing up the IG.

Incredibly Tough : Ogryns are very tough abhumans. For this, they count as Toughness 5 for instant death purposes.

Removing Bone 'ead armory restrictions; allow Bone 'eads access to Officer equipment. Come on, how many of these guys will actually be on the battlefield anyhow? One? Two? Three max?

Initiative 4 : The least realistic for Ogryns, but it would still give them a boost.

Any one of these changes would pump Ogryns up to possibly useful status. As it is now, they are too slow, too easy to kill, too many points for an enemy not to spend time shooting or assaulting, even if they aren't threatening your own units.

You could simply make them:

WS4 S4 T4/5 (natural girth, armour and chemical enhancements) I3 (slow) W1 A1 4+/6+ (bionics).

One attack, with some kind of 2 wound leader who has 2+1 attacks and two wounds. Price accordingly and give them a Chimera. gtg. They are big Orks, basically.

Problem with anything like this for Guard they get lost in the sea of Lasguns. I like the Command Squad bodyguard idea, or even adding one to Infantry squads. Maybe not Sergeants but basically any officer can take one along.

I think the ripper gun could be better.

I think that they die to easily is definitely the biggest issue that they'll need to overcome to be useful. I think that just going full tilt and making them T5 might be the easiest, as unfair as that would be to other races. I don't know if there are any other solutions.

I think the Bone'ead really should have more going for him. What armory equipment would be appropriate? In the new codex format it would be a (hopefully) though out but restrictive list.

What Taco suggests makes them just out to be Guard Orks, pretty much to a T. I don't think that's even a viable idea at all, it's sort of ridiculous actually. What next, Space Marines getting Necron-esque units? At least that would be closer upgrade to what they already are. Oh! Eldar with Tyranid-esque units, or Tau with Guardsmen (oh, wiat, they did that one already.....).

Ogryns have always been a unit on their own, very unique and different from just about anything else in the game, when put into context of what Army they are appart of. Their current main problem is being over priced, not very tough for a W3 unit, underpowered considering their role, ect.... In general, extra equipment is overpriced in the Imperial Guard, powerfists are 20pts, to take a S3 to a S6, which isn't a big deal considering that that just barely wounds basic SMs and Orks on a 2+, and only after striking last and then just a few attacks because only Officers can have them (one command squad could have two of them if they include a Commissar).

Just a quick question Taco, why do you need T 4/5 with only one wound per model? Yeah I see two wounds on the bonehead, but still.

I don't think unit cost is too much of an issue. While I think they're over priced I don't think its the main issue. If they simply did what they're suppose to they might actually be worth their points.

I say go full tilt and make them T5 but pay for the up in points. The only other thing would be to give them invulnerable saves and their isn't any way to justify it for anyone other than the bone'ead who's had cybernetic enhancements.

I think this for a basic Ogryn, at 25 to 30pts would be fair:
Ws4 Bs3 S5(6) T5 W2 I3 A2 Ld8 Sv5+

Nobz are about the same, stat wise ogryn would be better but don't have the special rules or weapon options. Ogryn are also burden with needing a commissar or officer to get onto a Chimera.

Ripper guns, should be S5 Ap6 R12" Assault 2. The things bigger than a bolter, that fact should be justified beyond clubbing people.

Also looking at the LatD, their big mutant was a knock off on Ogryns with upgrade options, but they could take flamers. Maybe give ogryns the options of taking flamers.

Bone'ead, counts as having bionics (6+ inv). He should be able to take a power fist or power weapon in addition to other options.

Do those and they'll be a good unit.

I think making them base toughness 5 and allowing the bone ead to take officer items will suffice. No price change is needed. Also make them stubborn. REmember a squad of 10 is 250 points. With a bone ead that is what...260. This is almost the same price as:

An Ork MOB with:
30 Orks
3 rokkits
1 nob with power klaw

250 points

Orks: 250 points: 31 wounds, 116 attacks on charge S4, and 4 fist attacks
OGRYN: 260 Points: 30 Wounds, 32 attacks on charge S6, and NO FIST ATTACKS

They are both suppposed to be assaulty units. They should both do about the same thing for such a similar price. Lets look at what happens now in one case.

Units Charge Marines with SGT with power fist

ORK Case:
Marine will have initiative on average they 9 marines kill
2 ORKs
the remaining 28 orks will kill roughly 9 marines
NOb will kill the remaining SGT and SGT with fist will kill one maybe two orks. ORK win via annihilation

ORGYN Case
Marines will go first and on averave wound 1.5 times we will be nice and say 1 wound.
10 Ogryn with leader will have 32 atttacks on a charge and average 4.44 dead marines. Since we are rounding down we will say 4. Then SGT with fist goes and will kill 1 which gets multiplied into 3.

Marines kill 4 (Without rounding (4.5))
Orgryn 4 (Without rounding (4.4))

So on average a 195 point tac squad which is not even supposed to be a h2h unit will defeat a 250+ point ogryn squad which is supposed to be badass.

NEED I SAY MORE: BROOOOOOOOOOOOOKEN!!!

Lets see what T5 does

9 marines that go first will kill 1 (Not 1.5)
ogryn still kill 4.44
Fist will wound 1 but not insta kill

Ogryn win 4.44 to 2.

Not nearly as devastating as orks though. Yet still the ogryn are more expensive than the orks.

Now lets use my recommendation
Ogryn at T5, I4, Bon'ead uses power weapon.

In this case Initiative is irrelevant because the 9 marines could not kill off a full ogryn.

9 standard Marines generate 1 wound
Ogryn on charge 28 attacks 3.89 (about 4 dead)
Bone ead w/ power wpn about 2 more wounds
Sgt w/ fist 1 more wound

Marines 2 wounds
Ogryn (about 6 wounds)

Marines need a 4 to pass and need to beat the ogryn init to not be mowed down. Keep in mind the ogryn unit is about 60 points more.

I rest my case.

foil7102 wrote:Just a quick question Taco, why do you need T 4/5 with only one wound per model? Yeah I see two wounds on the bonehead, but still.

tradition.

It is true that they are big and beefy, larger than a Nob. I honestly think all they need is a 4+ armour save and a points reduction. A Power Weapon/ Chain Fist for the Bone 'ead and some decent special weapons options and you are talking a good unit. W3 on a T4 chassis is their only weakness. They have S5. Larger than a Nob or a Big Mek, still a bit smaller than a Warboss.

This is what I would suggest.

Ogryns 100 points (4+ save, 5 points cheaper with free Bone 'ead)
4 Ogryns, 1 Bone 'ead
Ogryn WS4 BS3 S5/6 T4 W3 I3 A2 Ld8 4+
Bone 'ead WS4 BS3 S5/6 T4 W3 I3 A3 Ld9 4+
Up to 5 additional Ogryns can be added for 20 points each.

Up to two Ogryns may take a special weapon:
Flamer: 6 pts
Ogryn Heavy Stubber (Assault): 6? pts

The Bone 'ead may take the following upgrades:
Upgraded Ripper Gun (re-rolls to hit): 10 pts
Cyber-enhancement (FNP): 15 pts
Melta Bomb: 5pts

Part of the problem is they're paying for 3 wounds, but a lot insta-kills them. I'd suggest making them 1-2 wounds, but have FNP to compensate. This would allow them to shrug off more minor wounds, but still make them susceptible to anti-tank weapons.

FNP would not help because it does not work against things that instakill or ignore armor. So what would the point be.

The prime problem with Ogryns is they are too easy to take out, not their points over-price, necessarily. Something to make them less likely to suffer instant death is quite useful. Few weapons are above S8, only a few at S10 (I can only think of the Demolisher at the moment). If it were possible to make them toughness 4.5, wounded as a T4 or T5 perhaps, but 9 needed for instant death. Still vulnerable to anti-tank weapons, but not to power-fists for the most part. Knocking off their wounds isn't much help, you would have to make them worth less than a Space Marine to keep them competitive, and that's to only 2 wounds!

Ogryns are a lot of fun, but there is precious little fluff keeping them in the 40k universe, only slightly more than Ratlings (which are another little, if ever, used unit that is broken). So rarely seen in play, that if they were to disappear from the game, I don't think many people would complain. But I would!

After reading the current traffic; make them T5, drop 5pts per model.

kroot saper, ork nob, tyranid warrior.
all of the above have atleast 2+ wounds.
compare anogryn's size to them, he makes them look tiny.
im thinking 2 wounds each (3 for bone 'ead) T5, S5.
FNP would be nice, but not needed, allowing the bone 'ead wargear would work well too.

this unit looks great, but thier stats have been screwed up.

Toughness 5 makes a difference where it most counts and only has a minimal impact in other situations.

Ratlings are another casualty of GW's neglect. Its a failure on the part of GW to neither update their rules or models.

i know, and ratlings and ogryns are the only reason would collect a IG army.

I love the rats still. Had I not hung up my gaurd until the new dex I would probably try to incorporate them with the new rules.

I love the rats still. Had I not hung up my gaurd until the new dex I would probably try to incorporate them with the new rules.

I think all the stuff GW is rumored to have planned goes a long way to making a futuristic army, but its the Ogryn and Ratlings are really what make the IG a 40k army. Without both the is just humans in space and not the Imperial Guard.

Give T5

And RENDING

They are starting to sound like T5 stormtroopers. If they are to become one wound then they need a better weapon. Seriously, 1 W with a 12 in. shot.... not that great. Give them access to some special weapons in a officers retinue, then ok you have my attention. Otherwise I think they'd be worse than taking them now.

Who said 1 W? I've only seen 2W and 3W for Bone'eads.
While I agree with what you want to give them the rationale seem misplaced.

I personally think Ripper guns should be, S5.

The built in weakness of an Ogryn is first their minimal armor save and their size which make them easy to draw line of sight. Stormtroopers are better guardsmen and maintain a more middle of the road but master of nothing approach to being elites, while Ogryns are heavy hitting assualt elites.

I really see not a single reason to making them less than W3. If someone can give one good rational reason.....

I just realised, the back of the rulebook has a complete set of charts for all the armies. Does anyone know if these charts are still accurate with the new Space Marine codex? I am guessing that GW wouldn't go against their nice new shiny rulebook for the Imperial Guard, so my guess is that there won't be any change to the stats of the units, however the special rules are not listed.

would hate to see these guys go...
...bellow are a list of things that could be used to improve them (i don't think they need all be used, but which ones to pick)

... make them a troop choice ...

...give them the 'relentless' special rule ...

... let them take a Ogryn heavy weapons, normal heavy weapon with range -12" x2 shots. ie Ogryn LasCannon range 24" S:9 AP:2 Heavy2...

...let them spred out wounds (might need special base to keep track)...

...'feel no pain' special rule...

...ignore difficult terrain rolls, they can always move up to 6"... unless they roll a 1 then some ones fallen over, take a wound, unit stay where it is...

...'der's sum t'ing in 'ere' special rule lets ogyns pull people out of their transported (easier do to open topped, hard the high the vehicals rear armour)...



Just hope that these guys are still in when the IG codex comes out (some time in jan if you believe the rumors). IG just wouldn't be the same -Tri-

dietrich wrote:Part of the problem is they're paying for 3 wounds, but a lot insta-kills them. I'd suggest making them 1-2 wounds, but have FNP to compensate. This would allow them to shrug off more minor wounds, but still make them susceptible to anti-tank weapons.

smart_alex wrote:FNP would not help because it does not work against things that instakill or ignore armor. So what would the point be.

Should they be insta-killed by a lascannon? I think they should, so yes, FNP wouldn't help. FNP would help when they get shot up by heavy bolters, lasguns, etc. Sorry, I didn't add, "with a drop in the point cost to my original post", but it's what I was thinking. People see W3, and think, "any model with three wounds has a lot going for it". But, they don't, because people shoot them them anti-tank weapons and they die. Making them W2, should drop the point value, even while getting FNP.

I like the T5 idea, but that means they're shrugging off lascannon shots, and I think that should stay the domain of Warbosses. And I don't want to see the obliterator T 4(5), but that's an option.

Time for simple test folks.

This won't take long, especially if you have the new Black Reach set and own a current Ogryn model, and makes this whole thread redundant and explains why base T5 for Ogryn is the only solution for the 'Ogryn Problem'.



Firstly, get the Black Reach Warboss. Place him in front of you and make sure his back is facing you.

Ok, next, take your Ogryn model, and place the Ogryn model next to the Warboss, and make sure that the Ogryn's back is also facing you.

You should now have two models that are facing away from you, like they were disrespecting your crew (or something).

Ok, now ask yourself the following questions:

1. Which of the two models is larger, specifically in girth.
2. Which of these models is T5 in the rules.

Here's a hint:

1. The Ogryn.
2. The Warboss.

So the smaller Warboos is T5 and the larger Ogryn is T4.


Do we see a problem here?


There are very few things in this game that are alive and are the same size as Ogryn. They are massive, and deserving of T5 base like a Warboss.

BYE

My Guardsmen are as tall as or taller than my Space Marines.... does that mean they should be T4 and S4? Even GW admits their models are not to scale compared to eachother, just take the Rhino as an example of that! I don't disagree that Ogryns should have T5 or something akin to T4.5, so at least they aren't getting instant deathed ALL the time (seriously, that seems to be the only thing they do!). Making them cheaper, even at T5 would be good too, seriously, 25ppm for a unit that has SV5+? Three wounds does not equal three times the price of the same model with one wound, you don't get equal number of attacks, equal number of shots, or equal amount of wounds causable in close combat or to be outnumbered, not to mention you are subject to instant death! 20pts, max, even at T5 is my suggestion.

GW always overcosts extra wounds.

And GW has been trying to scale things correctly recently. It started when they made Dwarfs and Gobbos the right size. They're using their CAD program for good instead of evil and putting things to scale (the Warboss is huge next to the Black Lagoon guys).

And the Ogryn is bigger than him. Much bigger.

BYE

I'm HBMC on this even if we pretend that GW's scale is really really off and we take that into consideration we'd still end up with an Ogryn equal in "girth" to Warboss, instead of being larger. I think that's assuming a pretty big deviation from scale.

Off topic, a Rhino will fit 10 marines they just can't have bases. I've seen at least two instances where people got 10 marines inside by only repositioning arms and legs and not converting to change proportions.The only change to the Rhino were additional seats. So the Rhino is cramped but not impossible.

aka_mythos wrote:I think the ripper gun could be better.

I think that they die to easily is definitely the biggest issue that they'll need to overcome to be useful. I think that just going full tilt and making them T5 might be the easiest, as unfair as that would be to other races. I don't know if there are any other solutions.

I think the Bone'ead really should have more going for him. What armory equipment would be appropriate? In the new codex format it would be a (hopefully) though out but restrictive list.

Whats wrong with T5? Make them akin to Tyrant guard or just slightly weaker (with appropriate cost). The Ogryn models in WFB are appropriately sized. Make Ogryns mini MC's (with appropriate price). It makes them different than rough riders, very fluffy, and a non-standard unit.

Ogryn - 25 Points per Model:
WS4 BS3(6) S5 T5 W3 I4 A3 Ld8 Sv4+
WS4 BS3(6) S5 T5 W3 I4 A4 Ld9 Sv4+ (Bone 'Ead)

Squad: 5-10 Ogryn

Weapons: Ripper Gun

Options: One model may upgrade to a Bone 'Ead for +10 points. A Bone 'Ead has X, Y, Z options.

Special Rules: Furious Charge, Ripper Guns

Ripper Guns: Despite being BS3, Ogryn are treated as being BS6 when they fire their Ripper Guns as they fire so many shots it is difficult for the Ogryn to miss.

R12" S4 AP4 Assault 2

BYE

HBMC, why not put the ripper guns/BS in line with Orks?

proposed as above but, BS2 [akin to ork]
Ripper Gun (aka Shotcannon)
Str 5 AP- R12 Assault 3 [akin to a biggie sized marine shotgun + 1 shot]
The higher strength and A3 nature are balanced by the orklike BS.