Clthomps wrote:Well I just ordered a Cadian and Catachen Battle force, one Basilisk, and a 3 snipers.
The Snipers won't help you much, but we can work with the rest...
Clthomps wrote:Good:
cheep heavy weapons, (auto cannons)
cheep cannon fodder
cam cloaks
standards and officers seem good
tanks
Iron Discipline (really only 5 pts?!?!)
All correct, although I fully expect Iron Discipline to go the way of the Chaos Legions come the new Guard Codex, so don't get too comfortable using it (then again, we may get Colonel Iron McDiscipline, a new special character that gives you that rule in the new Codex).
Clthomps wrote:Bad:
vox caster
psykers
medics
grenade launchers
groups of sentinels
tanks can't move and shoot well in 5th
all the equipment for officers (why bother with it?)
commissars
Add Mortars and Missile Launchers to that list.
Clthomps wrote:So I have available:
45 guards men
6 heavy weapons teams
2 sentinels
1 Leman russ
1 Basilisk
3 snipers
You've got more than that.
To start with you've got two extra men thanks to accessory sprues that come with the Bassie and Russ - two extra men that make
excellent officers. Next, the 6
HW teams you've got make far more than 6
HW teams. I've bought 15
HW Teams since that kit was released and I have 7 Lascannon Teams, 7 Heavy Bolter Teams, 3 Missile Launcher teams and 8 Autocannon Teams. And I still have one full spare sprue that I haven't built yet, from which I can build another Lascannon, another Autocannon and another Missile Launcher.
Of course your biggest problem will be Lasgunners. You're going to need a minimum of 27 (4 squads w/6 each + 3 in the CHQ) and if you intend on stretching the
HW kit beyond the simple 6 teams, you'll need two extra guys per
HW.
Say, as you can as it's the easiest, you built 6 Lascannon Teams and 6 Autocannon Teams, you need a further 12 regular Guardsmen to do that as the
HW teams only come with 2 crewmen each. If that's done you'll be left with 8 guys, enough to make 2 Officers and 6 more guys, but that's about it.
So what you really need is:
20 more Cadians
1 more Leman Russ (nets you the third Officer as well)
Standard Bearer Blister
3 More Cadian Heavy Weapon Teams.
4 Cadian Plasma Gun/Meltagun blisters
Optional:
3 more Catachan Heavy Weapon Teams.
Now if you don't mind mixing Catachans and Cadians in the same squads (or even using the bitz to make hybrids of the two), then that's cool, otherwise this becomes a
little more complicated, especially when it comes to special weapons. Unless you plan on bitz ordering a bunch of plasma guns to make your own out of the plastic ones (requiring even more plastic Guardsmen than you have), you simply will not find Catachan Plasma Gunners. They are more rare than the Catachan Female Grenade Launcher model. Flamers (which you won't need given you get plastic ones on the sprue) and Meltaguns are easy, but Plasma Guns are a pain (pity too, as the metal Catachan Plasmagunner was a really nice model).
I've done a lot of '
from scratch' builds for people starting Guard, so I'm confident in saying I know the in's and out's of what to buy, what you can convert, and what you can't avoid buying. It also depends on how willing you are to convert models. If you're going to build every heavy weapon team exactly as the instructions tell you, then you're going to need to buy a lot more
HW team kits. If you're willing to use the bi-pod for all your Autocannons (believe me it's both easy and looks ace), then you can make that kit go a whole lot further. Also depends if you're planning to convert special weapons or buy special weapons (Meltas and Plasmas, specifically). That will determine what bitz orders you need to do (if any).
So get back to us on your aims and goals in how you intend to build this army, and we can go from there.
In the meantime, I'll look at the list.
Clthomps wrote:Light Infantry
Cam cloaks
Iron Discipline
__________________
The last two are up in the air....
Light Infantry
can work, depending on your application of it. It's very much like Sharpshooters in that it needs to be applied to the correct squads in the correct quantity. It's not something you give to all your squads. Infiltration, in the Guard, is not a tool for deploying forward, it's a tool for deploying
last. Use it as a strategic tool, allowing you to position key units in response to your opponent's deployment. That it is not is a way to give your squads Sniper Rifles, but more on that in a moment.
Camo Cloaks is great for 5th Ed, so enjoy it while it lasts (until we have to take Major Camo McCloak as a special character to give us the rule in the new Codex). Iron Discipline, again, the single mandatory choice in the Codex (until they take it away or tie it to a Special Character).
As for the other two, the obvious choices are Veterans and Drop Troops. The simple fact is Guard need anti-tank, and the 225 points it costs you for 9 BS4 Meltaguns dropping behind enemy tanks is a complete steal. Guard have no other way of delivering such reliable anti-tank for that many points. A Suicide Melta Command Squad w/Sharpshooters sets you back 90. Storm Troopers with Deep Strike and 2 Meltaguns cost 75 (ie. the same cost as the 3 Meltagun H-Vet Squad). Nothing else can get that concentration of Meltaguns for that price at BS4, which why (until they're taken away next Codex) we need them.
Clthomps wrote:I am going to model gas masks on all of them because I think it looks cool, so I might add chem inhalers if i am going through the trouble.... though I will have to get rid of Iron Discipline which seems like a bad move.
You don't need to take Chem-Inhalers if you model gas masks. Death Korp and Steel Legion don't...
So heres the list so far!
Clthomps wrote:1 x Junior Officer w/Honorifica Imperialis 65 Pt
1 x mortar 10pt
1 x standard bearer 11 pt (is it just me or is this the best 11 pt ever spent in an IG army)
1 x Guardsmen (I like to call him meat shield) Free
3 x mortars 80 pt
Iron disc 5pt
You've got 6
HW kits and you're going to spend 4 of them on Mortars?
No.
Mortars are not an item you should be taking. They missed in 4th a lot, they miss more in 5th, and they hit worse than a bolter. This is 40 points that will be doing sweet-
FA throughout the entire game. Plus, just from a modelling perspective, it is a complete waste of your
HW kits.
As I said in
this thread, CHQs cost 81 points -
JO w/Honorifica + Iron Discipline, Vet w/Company Standard, 3 Mooks w/Lasguns. Not a point more and not a point less unless you're giving them a useful Doctrine like Light Infantry or Camo Cloaks.
The Mortar unit is 90 points. The Mortar in the CHQ is 10 points. I just saved you 100 points and also quite a few $$$ in wasted
HW kits.
Clthomps wrote:Squad #1
1 x JO 40pt
1 x las cannon 25 pt
2 x guardsmen
Iron disc 5pt
Classic mistake here. Again, referring back to
this thread, Command Units exist to hide, provide leadership (something you clearly understand, hence the Iron Discipline), and then sell themselves valiantly in a storm of flamers when the enemy finally gets close. To do this they need to stay alive. To stay alive they need to be hidden. To be hidden they must be out of the enemy
LOS. Having a Lascannon means that this squad has to have
LOS to the enemy to use it. If you have
LOS, the enemy has
LOS, and if the enemy has
LOS,
you're not hiding!!!
Command Sections cost:
45 Points (
JO w/Iron Discpline + 4 Mooks w/Lasguns)
69 Points (
JO w/Iron Discpline + 4 Mooks w/Flamers)
80 Points (
JO w/Iron Discpline + 4 Mooks w/Meltaguns)
Again, with the standard +'s or -'s for things like Light Infantry, Camo Cloaks, or if you can only afford 3 Flamers, or whatever.
They don't sit in
LOS shooting heavy weapons. They are far too important, far too fragile and worth far to many
KP's to be out in the open.
Clthomps wrote:Squad #2
1 x sniper 5pt
1 x plasma 10 pt
8 x guardsmen
Light Infantry 10 pt
Cam. cloaks 10pt
Squad #3
1 x sniper 5pt
1 x plasma 10 pt
8 x guardsmen
Light Infantry 10 pt
Cam. cloaks 10pt
As I said before, the application of Doctrines like Light Infantry and Sharp Shooters is often as important as the special rules they give you. The two squads above represent an incorrect application of the Doctrine. Let me explain why:
1. Infiltration - It's a nice ability and gives you that strategic advantage that Guard Commanders so often need. However, these are Infantry squads. They're a dime a dozen and having strategic options with them isn't a must. This is something you'd only give to infantry squads
after you've given it to squads that would benefit form it more (
HW units and Command units).
2. Sniper Rifle - When you take Light Infantry, it's for the Infiltration ability and that's it. Nothing more. The Move Through Cover is a nice bonus, but really unnecessary given how often Guard armies move around. But you do not take the Sniper Rifle.
The thing about Sniper Rifles, and this has been true of them since 3rd Ed, is that Sniper Rifles in
40K act
nothing like Sniper Rifles do in real life. Rather than being precision accuracy weapons that will one shot/one kill someone from a huge distance, leaving the target squad hugging the ground as their point man's head explodes, Sniper Rifles in
40K have to come in batteries. You need to have a large amount of them to cause any damage at all, and the new Rending ability only exacerbated the problem (you now want to roll loads of 6's, so you take them in huge amounts).
So a single Sniper is pointless, as it will cause so little damage during the game that it's not worth bothering with. Worse, it replaces the heavy weapon. For the same 10 points you could get a Heavy Bolter, a weapon you can use every turn for much greater effect.
Do not take Sniper Rifles in Line squads. Do not take Light Infantry in Line Squads. By converting the Light Infantry and Sniper Rifle to an Autocannon (a weapon that is fantastic and works really well with the S7 Plasma Gun) you get back 5 points per squad. With the 25 points from the Platoon Command Section's Lascannon, you have 35 points. 4 Flamers costs you 24 points, leaving you 11 spare.
You now have 111 points spare and we're not even half-way through yet.
Clthomps wrote:Squad #1
1 x JO 40pt
1 x las cannon 25 pt
2 x guardsmen
iron disc 5pt
Squad #2
1 x sniper 5pt
1 x flamer 6 pt
8 x guardsmen
Light Infantry 10 pt
Cam. cloaks 10pt
Ditto here again. Here you want a Heavy Bolter, not a Sniper, so that's a straight swap. You save 35 points again (25 for Lascannon + 10 for Light Infantry on the squad), 24 for 4 Flamers.
122 points spare.
Clthomps wrote:Squad #3
1 x las cannon 25pt
1 x melta 10pt
7 x guardsmen
Light Infantry 10 pt
Cam. cloaks 10pt
Another classic mistake, and one that isn't easily apparent when you first look at it. You're probably thinking
"
But the Meltagun and Lascannon are both great anti-tank weapons! It makes sense to pair them with one another."
It doesn't.
The Lascannon has an effective range of 48". The Meltagun has an effective range of 12". They both kill tanks, yes, but the range difference is so huge that the Meltagun will sit there doing nothing all game. Moreover, if you move to get the effective range of 12" on the Meltagun, you can't fire the Lascannon. These might be anti-tank guns, but they are mismatched anti-tank guns.
"
But hold on," I hear you say. "
They've got Light Infantry! I can put them forward and in range!"
And as I said before, Light Infantry is not something you take to put squads forward, it's something you take to place squads
last.
Finally, a single squad-based Lascannon isn't going to change the world. Lascannons have become quite ineffective in 5th Ed, meaning that if you run into an entrenched AV14 vehicle, or something like a Hammerhead with its 4+-save-giving Disruption Pod, half of your shots will miss, half of your shots will just bounce off their cover save, less than half of what's left will cause damage and only a third of that will actually destroy the tank. This is why you need Meltaguns that can appear next to tanks, and not line-squad Lascannons.
Line squads in 5th come in two configs:
Sergeant w/Laspistol +
CCW Guardsman w/Plasma Gun
2 Guardsmen w/Autocannon
6 Mooks w/Lasguns
85 points (+other Doctrines like Camo Cloaks)
- - or - - Sergeant w/Laspistol +
CCW Guardsman w/Flamer
2 Guardsmen w/Heavy Bolter
6 Mooks w/Lasguns
76 points (+other Doctrines like Camo Cloaks)
The Las/
Plas squad just doesn't work unless you take
all Las/
Plas Squads (6-8 of them in a single list, and concentrate on a single target at the exclusion of all else).
Clthomps wrote:1 x sentinel w/ auto cannon pt 50
1 x sentinel w/ auto cannon pt 50
Nothing inherently wrong with these guys, as long as they're in separate squadrons that is. I'd be careful though. If you're planning on making Autocannons by converting the spare ones from the
HW teams, let me advise against that. You're going to need those Autocannons.
Clthomps wrote:Heavy:
1 Basilisk w/ ind 125 pt
1 leman rus 3 x Heavy Bolter 155pt
Nothing wrong there.
Clthomps wrote:Total: 1087
I'm not going to do a rebuild for you because I don't know what points value you're aiming for as well as a few other key details I'll get into in a second. What I'll do instead is sum up where this list has gone wrong:
1. Mortars.
2. Sniper Rifles.
3. Incorrect application of Light Infantry.
3. Insufficient heavy weapons of any sort.
4. No anti-tank ability whatsoever.
5. Limited anti-infantry capability.
6. Command Units that are just targets as they have to sit in the open to fire their heavy weapons.
Now, in order to help you further I need to know a few things:
1. What points level are you aiming for? 1250? 1550? 1850? 2050?
Apoc (ie.3000-5000)?
2. Do you intend to convert all Officers?
3. Do you intend to mix parts between Catachans and Cadians.
4. Do you intend to convert special weapons?
5. Are you willing to stretch the contents of the Heavy Weapon box as far as it will take you, or are you just going to stick to the instructions and make them all as shown on the picture?
6. How much are you willing to
buy.
Once you have the answers to the above, we can proceed.
BYE
