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From the Space Wolf FAQ:

Space Wolves vehicles: Use the point costs and rules from Codex: Space Marines for Dreadnoughts, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Whirlwinds, Predators, Land Raiders and Vindicators. All of the different variants and options available to these units in a Space Marine army are also available to the Space Wolves. The exception to this is the Venerable Dreadnoughts, which must be chosen from the Space Wolves army list (as detailed on page 7), and not the Space Marines army list.

Since at least one person asked for it, here's the poll.

Does the above allow Space Wolves to field LRC, LRR, and Ironclads from the new Codex: Space Marine (hurr!)?

Feel free to discuss.

"All of the different VARIANTS AND OPTIONS..."

It rather annoys me that there's even an argument about this, the FAQ is rather explicit. What else is variants to mean if not crusaders, redeemers, ironclads, etc. That it specifically excludes Venerable dreads, which is a completely separate profile than dreads in the 5th ed codex, is even further proof that this is the case.

Agreed. This is quite clear.

yes they can and Land Speeders Storms which are a nice bonus for SW scouts who want to safely get into CC

Yup, so far as I'm concerned, 'variants' means 'variants'...

Three 'No' votes, but no response on why.

I'm assuming the argument to be based on 'variant' not having a gaming defintion. So, by RAW, you can't decipher the FAQ.

I don't buy the argument that a Predator Annihilator is a 'variant'. There is not a PredAnn anymore. There's a Predator. And it has the Options, as part of its unit entry, to upgun to have a twin-las turret and las sponsons. To me, that isn't a variant, it's an option.

Anyone had any experiences with this? I wouldn't expect to show up at a tourney with a LRC in a SW army (which was legal in fourth) or even a LRR and be told that it's an illegal model and/or I'm disqualified, but I guess it's possible.

I didn't vote either way.
But I think the "no" vote is stating that a base tank and one with sponsons (for example) are variants of the base tank.

A LR and LRC are two different tanks with similar names.

The Ironclad is not a variation/upgrade bought under the Dreadnought entry. It is a seperate entry.
Neither the Land Raider Crusader, nor the Redeemer is an upgrade/variant bought under the Land Raider entry, hence "No".

But, they're not variants. That's a tank with Options.

Ultimately, it's another GREAT job by GW. I'm sure that they think it's crystal clear and that we're all a bunch of cheesy, stupid tournament gamers and that's not their core audience so we don't matter.

But, for like 10 more words (Land Raider Crusader, Land Raider Redeemer, Land Speeder Storm, Ironclad Dreadnought and removing variants), they would have eliminated it.

Guess I have to eat some crow. This is now 3:1 in favor, where I expected it to be like 10:1. Sorry John!

I'll check with the next tourney organizer before I bring my LRR with me!

Steelmage99 wrote:The Ironclad is not a variation/upgrade bought under the Dreadnought entry. It is a seperate entry.

So what would you consider a 'variant' as opposed to an 'option'?

I kept silent earlier because I didn't want to bias the discussion or votiing. Anyhow, it's nice to see a poll come out.

I start with a minimalist approach - if GW doesn't specifically state that you can do something, then you can't.

IMO, only the specific named unit entries specified in the FAQ are allowed. If GW intended "variant" to mean "LR Crusader", then they would have simply said "variants (such as Crusader & Redeemer)".

IMO, "variant" refers to what used to be called "Predator Annihilator" and "Predator Destructor" under the named and allowed "Predator" entry. Similarly for the LS "Typhoon / Tornado" variants which are now incorprorated under the "Land Speeder" entry.

insaniak wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:The Ironclad is not a variation/upgrade bought under the Dreadnought entry. It is a seperate entry.

So what would you consider a 'variant' as opposed to an 'option'?

Also, what makes a Venerable Dreadnought a variant that forced the FAQ writers to exclude that entry but not others?

JohnHwangDD wrote:IMO, "variant" refers to what used to be called "Predator Annihilator" and "Predator Destructor" under the named and allowed "Predator" entry.

So how is a predator with lascannons a variant, rather than just a predator with allowed options?

@insaniak - it just is. "options" would cover things like PMSB or extra armor.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@insaniak - it just is.

Well, can't argue with that, can I?

Wait a minute... Maybe I can:

"options" would cover things like PMSB or extra armor.

So, the things listed under 'Options' in the vehicle's entry?

@insaniak: Do you even remember when GW distinguished between Pred A and Pred D? Or different variants of Landspeeder?

JohnHwangDD wrote:@insaniak: Do you even remember when GW distinguished between Pred A and Pred D? Or different variants of Landspeeder?

So that's one vote for 'I'll just ignore the question' is it?


It doesn't matter whether they distinguished between different predators in the past. They don't do so now. You simply have a Predator, and it has several different options. There are no variant Predators listed in the codex, and no 'Variant' entry in the army list entry. The different weapon load-outs are simply 'options'...


The Land Raider, on the other hand, has several options listed in the entry, none of which are labeled as making the LR a 'variant'... and then we have a couple of entries for other vehicles that are different types of Land Raider.

Surely a different type of Land Raider is a Land Raider variant, no?

Is the Devastator entry a variant of Tactical entry?

Is the Predator entry a variant of the Rhino entry?

Is the Ironclad entry a variant of the Dreadnought entry?


Predators used to have seperate entries, but not any more.

Which units that has variants changes with codexes. Currently Dreadnought is a specific entry entirely seperate from the Ironclad Dreadnought. So is the Land Raider entry.

SW uses the Landspeeder entry (and it's variants), but do not have acces to Crusader/Redeemer as they aren't variants found under the Land Raider entry.

Steelmage99 wrote:Is the Devastator entry a variant of Tactical entry?

Is the Predator entry a variant of the Rhino entry?

Is the Ironclad entry a variant of the Dreadnought entry?

Do they actually say that they are? If not, then they aren't.

Steelmage99 wrote:Is the Devastator entry a variant of Tactical entry?

Since they're not listed as a type of tactical squad, I would think not.

Is the Predator entry a variant of the Rhino entry?

Wouldn't make any difference either way, since Space Wolves have access to both.

Is the Ironclad entry a variant of the Dreadnought entry?

It's not a variant of the Dreadnought entry. It is a variant Dreadnought.

SW uses the Landspeeder entry (and it's variants), but do not have acces to Crusader/Redeemer as they aren't variants found under the Land Raider entry.

Who says they have to be found under the same entry?

The FAQ simply says 'variants'... not 'variants under the same entry'


The question again: Is a different type of Land Raider a Land Raider variant?

Isn't that what 'variant' means...?

The difference between Devastators and Tacticals lies in weapon options.
The difference between a Crusader and a Land Raider lies in weapon options.

Surely a Devastator squad is a variant of a Tactical squad, right?

Apparently the whole issue stems from the fact that the 3 Land Raider entries share part of a name. But sharing part of a name does not make them one entry, or variants. Should I include the Land Speeder since it also shares part of a name?

SW have acces to one Land Raider entry and that is....the Land Raider entry. SW have acces to any variant you can make using that entry. Just like they can with the Predator entry (annihilator/destructor, which isn't named anymore) and the Landspeeder entry (tornado/typhoon). So no Land Speeder Storm since that is not a variant that can be built using the entry they have acces to, namely the Land Speeder entry.

Steelmage99 wrote:Which units that has variants changes with codexes. Currently Dreadnought is a specific entry entirely seperate from the Ironclad Dreadnought. So is the Land Raider entry.

SW uses the Landspeeder entry (and it's variants), but do not have acces to Crusader/Redeemer as they aren't variants found under the Land Raider entry.

So the Dread entry is entirely seperate to the Ironclad Dreeadnought entry, I will agree with that, but you claim that prevents it from being a variant. Please then explain why the Space Wolves FAQ specifically states that they can take Dreadnoughts and Dreadnought Variants EXCLUDING Venerable Dreadnoughts.

What is it that makes the Venerable Dreadnought a Dreadnought variant that doesn't apply to the Ironclad?

Mainly because Venerable Dreadnought used to be a variant, but isn't anymore. Also the SW Venerable Dreadnought differs from the SM Venerable Dreadnought. I can only imagine that GW wanted to keep something SW-specific.

insaniak wrote:It's not a variant of the Dreadnought entry. It is a variant Dreadnought.

And where, *exactly*, in the rules does it say that?

When the rules labeled it an Ironclad Dreadnought.

Steelmage99 wrote:Mainly because Venerable Dreadnought used to be a variant, but isn't anymore.

Compare with the Blood Angels Dreadnought:
- Venerable is a variant option
- Death Company is a variant option

Also, recall that rules text of C: SW originally references the 3E version of C: SM, in which things like Redeemer and Crusader simply do not exist...

sourclams wrote:When the rules labeled it an Ironclad Dreadnought.

Does the Ironclad actually say "Variant: The Ironclad is a variant of Dreadnought" in its rules?

If not, no dice.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:Mainly because Venerable Dreadnought used to be a variant, but isn't anymore.

Compare with the Blood Angels Dreadnought:
- Venerable is a variant option
- Death Company is a variant option

Also, recall that rules text of C: SW originally references the 3E version of C: SM, in which things like Redeemer and Crusader simply do not exist...

But we are talking about SW and their acces to Codex Space Marine, where Venerable is not a variant, but a seperate entry.

Venerable can be a variant to one Codex and not to another.
Like a Stormshield can provide +3 in one Codex and +4 in another.

Does the Ironclad actually say "Variant: The Ironclad is a variant of Dreadnought" in its rules?

Yeah, they actually do. See that word behind 'Ironclad'? What word is that?