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FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.



Shrike's 'See But Remain Unseen' special rule says (SM codex, pg92):

"Shrike (and all models in his squad) benfit from the infiltrate special rule (see the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook)."


The 'Infiltrate' special rule (rulebook, pg75) says:

"Infiltrate*: Units with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friends and foe) have been deployed."


The 'Universal Special Rules' section (pgs 74-76) says:

"The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an Independent Character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule. These rules are also lost by a unit that is joined by an independent character that does not have the same special rule."


The Independent Characters Joining & Leaving Units: Special Rules (rulebook, pg48) says:

"When an independent character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified otherwise in the rule itself (as in the 'stubborn' special rule), the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the character, and the character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit."




QUESTION: Can Shrike's 'See, But Remain Unseen' rule actually be used to infiltrate a friendly unit since (outside of going into Reserves) there are no rules allowing him to join a unit before deployment? And If so, can another IC join the unit and gain the infiltrate special rule?




OPTION A. I play that since (outside of going into Reserves) there are no rules allowing infiltrating ICs to join a unit before the game the only thing Shrike's special rule is good for is to allow him to join a unit in Reserves and give them the ability to outflank when they arrive. And yes, if another IC is also joined to the unit in reserve it can then outflank along with the rest of the unit.



OPTION B. The same as option 'A' except that I play that other ICs joining the unit wouldn't benefit from his special rule (and therefore cannot do so).



OPTION C. I play that, despite the fact that there are no rules written allowing it to happen, Shrike is allowed to join a unit before the game begins and then deploy this entire unit together using the 'infiltrate' special rule. And yes, another IC can be joined to the unit and infiltrate along with them.



OPTION D. The same as option 'C' except that I play that other ICs joining the unit wouldn't benefit from his special rule (and therefore cannot do so).



OPTION E. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.

B and D are the same...

frgsinwntr wrote:B and D are the same...

Whoops! Fixed that.

I think there is more to this one Yakface.

Command Squads appear as though they can be a retinue for Shrike.

Bottom-left paragraph, SM pg. 55

If this is the case, then Shrike would behave as an upgrade character for the Command Squad, and thus that entire squad WOULD have Infiltrate at the start of deployment, since pg. 48 BRB only applies to units and ICs interacting together. Without using a Command Squad as a retinue however, option B is the RAW answer.

BRB 48 wrote:Retinues
Some Codex books allow you to field characters
together with a special unit that they cannot leave
during the game (which is normally called a ‘retinue’,
‘bodyguard’ or similar). Where this is the case, the
character counts as an upgrade character until all of
the other members of this unit are killed, at which
point it starts counting as an independent character
and it will do so for the rest of the game.

Trekari wrote:I think there is more to this one Yakface.

Command Squads appear as though they can be a retinue for Shrike.

Bottom-left paragraph, SM pg. 55

If this is the case, then Shrike would behave as an upgrade character for the Command Squad, and thus that entire squad WOULD have Infiltrate at the start of deployment, since pg. 48 BRB only applies to units and ICs interacting together. Without using a Command Squad as a retinue however, option B is the RAW answer.

No. Command squads are not retinues as there is no rule stating that the character and the squad form a single unit. While they both are a single HQ choice, as pg 92 of the rulebook ("Mutliple Unit Choices") clearly states, multiple units that come from a single force org choice DOES NOT mean they form a single unit. This is similar to multiple IG units for a single Platoon taking up only one Troops force org choice.

A SM IC and command squad are entirely separate units.

My impression has been that they basically left deployment rules out of the 5th edition rule book. You have situtations like this and the "Can I deploy my tank into impassible terrain?" question because someone thought the rules would be obvious and left them out...

It just makes more sense to me that IC's should be able to join units and apply their special rules before being placed on the table.

I voted D. The rules are obviously clear cut as to when an IC joins a unit and by RAW I'd agree that A is the correct option. This is one of those situations where I personally feel it's ludicrous to follow RAW concerning when the IC actually joins the unit.

As for other IC's being able to join and also share in this special rule, I just don't see it. I personally feel that IC's are on an equal tier and because of that they don't share special abilities with one another. I know there are lot's of people that will rage and roar at me for saying that, but it's a sensible judgement. I think it would be very cheesy to have multiple IC's joining one another to form some 'uber' special rule squad.

yakface wrote:

Trekari wrote:I think there is more to this one Yakface.

Command Squads appear as though they can be a retinue for Shrike.

Bottom-left paragraph, SM pg. 55

If this is the case, then Shrike would behave as an upgrade character for the Command Squad, and thus that entire squad WOULD have Infiltrate at the start of deployment, since pg. 48 BRB only applies to units and ICs interacting together. Without using a Command Squad as a retinue however, option B is the RAW answer.

No. Command squads are not retinues as there is no rule stating that the character and the squad form a single unit. While they both are a single HQ choice, as pg 92 of the rulebook ("Mutliple Unit Choices") clearly states, multiple units that come from a single force org choice DOES NOT mean they form a single unit. This is similar to multiple IG units for a single Platoon taking up only one Troops force org choice.

A SM IC and command squad are entirely separate units.

The entry of Honor Guard and Command squad on pages 53 and 55 appear to conflict with your take given that they actually use the words "retinue."

Honor Guard 53 wrote:In battle, the Honor Guard commonly act as the Chapter Master's retinue.

Command Squad 55 wrote:Command squads accompany high-ranking Space Marine offiers on the field of battle.

...most Captains fill their retinues with

These fit the description of retinues per the BRB. Also, the rulebook itself contradicts pg. 92 with the very definition of retinue that I quoted. Beyond that, Honor Guards can only be purchased on a 1-to-1 ratio of Chapter Masters, and Command Squads can only be purchased 1-to-1 with Captains.

If Honor Guards can be retinues for Chapter Masters as their text indicates, and if Command Squads can be retinues for Captains as their text indicates, then Shrike's rule (and its wording) makes perfect sense.

[quote=Trekari


The entry of Honor Guard and Command squad on pages 53 and 55 appear to conflict with your take given that they actually use the words "retinue."

Honor Guard 53 wrote:In battle, the Honor Guard commonly act as the Chapter Master's retinue.

Command Squad 55 wrote:Command squads accompany high-ranking Space Marine offiers on the field of battle.

...most Captains fill their retinues with

These fit the description of retinues per the BRB. Also, the rulebook itself contradicts pg. 92 with the very definition of retinue that I quoted. Beyond that, Honor Guards can only be purchased on a 1-to-1 ratio of Chapter Masters, and Command Squads can only be purchased 1-to-1 with Captains.

If Honor Guards can be retinues for Chapter Masters as their text indicates, and if Command Squads can be retinues for Captains as their text indicates, then Shrike's rule (and its wording) makes perfect sense.

Apparently when special rules refer to "his unit" it's not specific enough for you trekari, yet you let fluff paragraphs influence how you rule on command squads and honour guards?

look at other units with retinues...

Tyranid Hive Tyrant wrote:has the special rule "Retinue" which states 'The Hive Tyrant may take a retinue of Tyrant Guard, as listed on page 36'.

Tau Commander wrote:has the special rule "Bodyguard" which states 'The commander may be accompanied by a bodyguard, see the separate entry below. The commander and his bodyguard count as a single HQ choice'.

There's nothing in the Honour Guard or Command Squad RULES (Note: Not the fluff, the actual rules which tell you how to play the game) which imply they would be a retinue by any means.

I vote D. Giving Infiltrate to a unit is useless unless you can join them before the game starts. I'd also allow Outflanking, of course.

It makes sense to me since the previous incarnation of Shrike could lead Shrike's Wing, a squad of elite marines able to use the same deployment options as he had.

Yakface -I was not trying to muck up the thread. I noticed something that MIGHT have been relevant to your poll, as well as make Shrike's rule easily understandable via RAW.

Drunkspleen - I asked a question. I am positive about my understanding regarding how special rules are shared or not shared. And they don't f-in allow WARGEAR to make that determination.

This was a question and comment about Shrike and retinues - leave it at that.

Admittedly the comment regarding the "his unit" was unnecessary, but the rest of the post is relevant, you aren't applying rules, because the things you cite aren't in the rules, they are in the fluff.

I voted D as well. It's the only way to make Shrike's rules work.

I voted D.

But I disagree that there is no rule that says Shrike cannot join a unit out of Reserves. pg 48 top of the right column,

"Alternatively an IC may begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency with them."

I think that right there lets Shrike get to use Infiltrate with a unit, not just for outflank. Now this is a special rule under Shrike and Infiltrate has a * in the USR section of the rules, so any IC without Infiltrate that joins the unit ruins it for everyone.

Zero

I went with D. Makes the most sense, for fluff and game balance.

I voted D.

Its the only way for Shrike. Would be funny if you deploy a squad an shrike comes by and orders them to infiltrate.
Tactical moves like infiltrate will never "gather" the units on the battlefield to do so.