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Ok, not everyone will agree but the effects of shooting have drastically been reduced in 5th. We can no longer force moral checks and running has greatly decreased the time non mech shooting armies have before they have to run in the other directions.

So how should shooting be fixed to equal out the effects of assult?

1) Bring back the ability to cause moral checks to break units after a certain % casualties (what % and how much I'm not sure)
2) Decrease run to a d3 (giving fleet a better advantage).

Any other thoughts?

You can cause ld tests through shooting, you just need to cause 25% casualties.

We increased the range of basic guns.

Shuriken Catapult - 24"
Bolter/Lasgun/Hellgun - 30"
Pulse Rifle - 36"

Worked pretty well so far. Basic infantry get to do something other than soak up wounds.

BYE

I like Running being decreased to D3.

Also, making cover give a -1 BS to the firer instead of giving a 4+ cover save.

And if a unit blocks another unit and gives it cover, then all missed shots are rerolled using normal BS, and hits are taken against that squad.

For example...

A squad of 10 Guardsmen fire at an Ork squad that are behind some Grots. They only hit with 3 shots against the Orks. Then the other 7 dice are rerolled, and 3 of those hit the Grot squad.

Would make more sense.

Also, when a squad is forced to take a LD check because they took 25% casualties, they have to reduce their LD by 1 point for every 2 guys that they lost during that shooting phase.

Vladsimpaler wrote:I like Running being decreased to D3.

Also, making cover give a -1 BS to the firer instead of giving a 4+ cover save.

And if a unit blocks another unit and gives it cover, then all missed shots are rerolled using normal BS, and hits are taken against that squad.

For example...

A squad of 10 Guardsmen fire at an Ork squad that are behind some Grots. They only hit with 3 shots against the Orks. Then the other 7 dice are rerolled, and 3 of those hit the Grot squad.

Would make more sense.

Also, when a squad is forced to take a LD check because they took 25% casualties, they have to reduce their LD by 1 point for every 2 guys that they lost during that shooting phase.

The -1 BS idea is spiffy, but actually a bit to powerful for things like marines. I know Tau firewarrios would hate hitting only on 5s.

I have little issue with the ammount of casualties one can inflict via shooting, but it would be nice if you could get a similar morale impact as to assault.

We've toyed with using the same modifiers to shooting morale as melee uses (i.e. -1 ld per casualty taken that round, fearless troops take extra armour saves per melee) for the shooting casualty morale check. This way it would be more possible to break units with shooting.

Jack

I agree, shooting morale checks at -1 per casualty, like assaults...

Assault and pistol weapons should hit in CC at their St and AP.

When a unit breaks from shooting in 6 inches of a friendly unit, the other unit also has to test.

Charge reactions, instead of consolidating units ought to be able to elece to stand and shoot and take a round of shooting instead with the unengaged models as things close.

Opportunity fire and overwatch.

(It's become an assault game.)

Just make coversaves +5, worked in 3rd-4th edition. Give the ability for troops to split fire but declare who you are shooting at before you shoot. Some armies need the ability to shoot into combat but misses will hit your own troops. Ld Modifiers for shooting would be better like -1 for ordinance, -1 for 50% casualties in one shooting phase, -1 for barrage weapons, -1 for 75% casualties.

Give the ability to cause more wounds on multi-wound models with shooting like any wounds on 6 w/ AP 1-2 weapons cause D3 wounds lost. This would balance out MC vs Vehicles slightly better.

Overwatch is still unbalancing as it would make it a total shooting game.

thehod wrote:Overwatch is still unbalancing as it would make it a total shooting game.

I like all your ideas hod, a word on overwatch:

I would not play it general like before, shoot anywwhere, at normal value, anytime in the opponents turn, it would have some limits:

Set a 90 degree fire arc
Op fire ONLY in response to new targets (that were not previously targets when overwatch was set) because of some kind of movement
-1 to hit

@Augustus

The -1 to hit you proposed sounds pretty balanced there as most shooting armies dont have a high BS. The 90 degree is not necessary.

Do you think overwatch could work like the mystics rule for DH where you can roll 4d6" plus initiative?

I really like your idea of pistols shooting in HtH which makes plasma pistols worth it and giving a bolt pistol to an IG officer would actually mean something.

thehod wrote:@Augustus

The -1 to hit you proposed sounds pretty balanced there as most shooting armies dont have a high BS. The 90 degree is not necessary.

Agreed.

thehod wrote:Do you think overwatch could work like the mystics rule for DH where you can roll 4d6" plus initiative?

Yes I think that would be even better than the -1 or the ark, because it would keep the long distance stuff from being silly and be a risk, probably best used for assault defence. I think it might prove a nice foil for outflankers, which in the games my group has played have proven fairly powerful.

thehod wrote:I really like your idea of pistols shooting in HtH which makes plasma pistols worth it and giving a bolt pistol to an IG officer would actually mean something.

Thanks, I agree, it would be a pretty good thing, maybe just for pistols not assault weapons... The rear armor on vehichles in assault though might make that awfully great...Hmmm

Cutting Run to d3", no Assault would be a good change as long as Fleet stayed d6" and allowed Assault.

Shooting causes Morale tests if you kill 25%, so I don't see the problem there.

Also for overwatch to work, I would be keen to see the unit "go to ground" but still be able to fire.

This cuts their mobility down and makes overwatch a useful strategic position rather than just something everyone with guns does by default.

I'm imagining IG sitting on an objective with Tyranid swarming towards them as the marines in Aliens...

"They're all around us" ... dakka dakka!

"Game over man! Game over!"

Augustus wrote:

thehod wrote:@Augustus

The -1 to hit you proposed sounds pretty balanced there as most shooting armies dont have a high BS. The 90 degree is not necessary.

Agreed.

thehod wrote:Do you think overwatch could work like the mystics rule for DH where you can roll 4d6" plus initiative?

Yes I think that would be even better than the -1 or the ark, because it would keep the long distance stuff from being silly and be a risk, probably best used for assault defence. I think it might prove a nice foil for outflankers, which in the games my group has played have proven fairly powerful.

thehod wrote:I really like your idea of pistols shooting in HtH which makes plasma pistols worth it and giving a bolt pistol to an IG officer would actually mean something.

Thanks, I agree, it would be a pretty good thing, maybe just for pistols not assault weapons... The rear armor on vehichles in assault though might make that awfully great...Hmmm

I think you and I share similar opinions on how 40K should be played in 5th.

Vladsimpaler wrote:I like Running being decreased to D3.

Also, making cover give a -1 BS to the firer instead of giving a 4+ cover save.

And if a unit blocks another unit and gives it cover, then all missed shots are rerolled using normal BS, and hits are taken against that squad.

For example...

A squad of 10 Guardsmen fire at an Ork squad that are behind some Grots. They only hit with 3 shots against the Orks. Then the other 7 dice are rerolled, and 3 of those hit the Grot squad.

Would make more sense.

Also, when a squad is forced to take a LD check because they took 25% casualties, they have to reduce their LD by 1 point for every 2 guys that they lost during that shooting phase.

Brilliant. I vote Vladsimpaler and HBMC replace the entire GW staff. Sixth edition 40K would be a tsunami of awesomeness

Hmm, in the thread that deals with how 5th seems to favour assault we did actually cover a few of these in an effort to sppof up the rules and make shooting better if not equal to assault. Personally I think that quite a few of the Assault morale modifers should apply to the shooting phase as well. The most important of which is how fearless troops that don't fall back take extra wounds. That would really help out against Fearless Groundpounders and would even be fluffy as they are (in the case of Orks and Nids, the biggest proponents of fearless mobs) are a large tidal wave of bodies that you can pretty much fire into and not miss. So with that I would propose that units that suffer 25% casualties suffer a -1 leadership test, 50% casualties a -2 leadership test, and 75% a -3 leadership test. If failed the unit would immediatley have to go to ground as the surviving members dive for cover from the fusilade, fearless troops would have to an extra three wounds per 25% increment to shooting as they simply charge forward unheeding of the enemy fire. Also certain weapons would give negative modifiers as well, like barrage weapons and sniper rifles. Probably -1 each with a possible -2 for large barrages like the Vindicator or Basilisk. As for run I think it should instead be put into the assault phase. That way shooting armies can take advantage of it as well giving them greater mobility, it doesn't affect current frequent runners as they couldn't assault anyways, but now they can fire any assault weapons they have as well. (Big shootas being the gun that comes to mind.) And it makes Fleet that much better because you can now move 2d6 more inches when you aren't assaulting.

Augustus wrote:Assault and pistol weapons should hit in CC at their St and AP

I'm not a big fan of that:
1. It is only an advantage for armies that have upgrade characters and armories. The biggest cc army around, tyranids does not get an advantage.
2. A powerfist on a csm costs 25 points, is useless in ranged combat and hits at I1. A melter costs 10 points and hits (according to the proposed rule) in both close combat and ranged combat. You'd have to balance point costs completely different. Too many changes, imho.

I'm a big fan of using the morale checking rules for cc for ranged also. Maybe just count half the kills, because in ranged combat, the attacker does not lose units at all. This is a minor change that does not influence to many other factors.

warpcrafter wrote:I vote Vladsimpaler and HBMC replace the entire GW staff. Sixth edition 40K would be a tsunami of awesomeness

Thank you good sir.

Big fan of the reduced run Casper. However I think the way units can be broken should remain the same and just increase the range of all ranges weps by like 3 inches.

Mabe this is just me but just adding range to units guns really doesn't fix anything. If they reverted back to 4th ed.'s shooting casualties and moral table that would be fine by me (at least there would be more of a chance).

"Mabe this is just me but just adding range to units guns really doesn't fix anything. If they reverted back to 4th ed.'s shooting casualties and moral table that would be fine by me (at least there would be more of a chance)."

Doesn't matter as much anymore because of the proliferation of fearless units in the game. Fearless is a negative thing in CC usually but rocks in shooting cause they can't be broken or pinned.

The extra range would help because it would give you one extra shooting phase. Thus allowing for you to inflict more wounds most of the time.

Also if you reduce run AND give most guns a longer range it gives you even more time to deal wounds to your opponents squads. Thus slowing down your opponent and giving you the ability to pump more rounds into him. so if you play a shooting army and do not take advantage of this then it would be just poor tactics on your part.

You could apply No Retreat! to shooting as well, I think.

Like, for every wound the unit takes, they roll a d6. On a 5 or 6 they have to take another armor save, or something like that.

TBH, why don't you just go back to 2E movement and ranges? 2E average movement was about 4" on the ground. 2E heavy weapons shot about 50% farther than to day (i.e. 72" Lascannon). Restore overwatch, and watch the game grind to a complete halt...

That is an argument ad absurdum.

If it is agreed that assault has become too powerful, the balance can be redressed without necessarily making shooting too powerful.

There are several variables to play with -- range, accuracy, cover saves, movement speed and morale. Some combination could be found.

Not that it will happen in 5e. (Or 6e, probably.)

Sweeping advances need to be fixed!

Yesterday a fresh squad of my IG assaulted a single Nob Biker whose squad was decimated by multi-las fire

10 guard swing, roll terrably, no wounds

nob swings, cuts down one man.

squad runs, nob sweeps, squad gone.

shouldn't sweeping only give free attacks and reinitiate the assault, rather than magically obliterating the enemy in defiance of logic and fairness?

Sweeping advance needs a little tweaking, I agree. Just treat the attacking model as charging with instant hits, wounds, and no saves. The attacking unit then may choose to either lock in combat, or release the squad, which counts as below half strength for morale purposes until it regroups (if it can). It'll keep running until off the board, or regroup and return to battle.

What does this solve? For loose example; Ten Marines are unfortunate enough to not would a Guardsmen who is then lucky enough to kill one of the Marines, the Marines turn and run, but the Guardsmen makes Sweeping Advance. Normal rules, Guardsmen slaughters the whole lot of them somehow. Suggested rules? Two Marines are cut down but they retain a chance to come back.

A little complicated? Yeah, a tiny bit, but I would rather that than stupid scenarios.

You guys are right,
40k is too assualt orrientated,
think about it...
i know i get more scared when i play whyche WWP DE, than when i play only firewarriors and battlesuit tau,
an dmy army is mega balanced,
assault is just too powerful, and average assault;
litterlly kills a unit every turn or so, were as in shooting...
it literally takes half your amry to kill 1 unit (in 1500 games)
it sucks!
haha

Very True its unlikely that 1 average man or beast or whatever would cut down an entire squad no matter what, one of them would turn around and try and hit the dude.