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2009/01/16 03:37:58
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please. ****REVISED LIST*****
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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I HAVE POSTED A NEW LIST LATER IN THE THREAD:
HQ
1 SM Captain (215)
-Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Digital Weapons, Artificer Armor, Bike. Hellfire Rounds
1 SM Chaplain (130)
-Digital Weapons, Melta Bombs, Jump Pack
Elites
1 Terminator Assault Squad (200)
-Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields
Troops
1 Space Marine Bike Squad (x4) (185)
-Meltagun x2
-Veteran Sergeant
-Power Fist
1 Space Marine Bike Squad (x4) (185)
-Meltagun x2
-Veteran Sergeant
-Power Fist
1 Tactical Squad(x9) (250)
-Missile Launcher, Flamer
-Veteran Sergeant
-Combi-Melta, Power Fist
-Drop Pod
-Locator Beacon
1 Tactical Squad(x9) (250)
-Missile Launcher, Flamer
-Veteran Sergeant
-Combi-Melta, Power Fist
-Drop Pod
-Locator Beacon
Fast Attack
1 Vanguard Veteran Squad (x4) (335)
-Melta Bombs, Storm Shield, Lightning Claw
-Veteran Sergeant
-Melta Bombs, Storm Shield, Lightning Claw
NOTE: This list sounds like fun to me, but I want to know if it's a viable list for tournaments. I don't have any illusions about going in and cleaning house, but I'm wondering if this list has potential to win. (I.E. no severe handicaps beyond what S.M.'s already have in a competetive environment.)
One quick question: Does attaching the Chaplain to the Vanguards prevent them from assaulting when they Deepstrike? My gut tells me yes, but my Codex isn't with me at the moment.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/01/24 02:38:53
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2009/01/16 05:13:41
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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I guess this list is perfect.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2009/01/16 05:21:03
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Looks good to me. It's not the most competitive but it can work. Vanguard are way expensive IMO. If I had to drop anything it would definitely be them, along with a tactical squad. I think you would be better off running the tactical squad(s if you keep 2) in a razorback or rhino to help give your bikes a cover save. You can pick up an LR for your termies, give your chappy terminator armor, and still have a lot of pts left over for some vindicators or attack bikes/speeders.
Also, I believe you need 5 bikers per squad to count them as troops.
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2009/01/16 05:27:46
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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That is correct, however if you'll notice, I don't count the sergeants in with my squad numbers. This is a habit I formed last edition when the sergeants could be vet or non....
And yes VG are WAY expensive, but I do so enjoy the thought of bounding 3+ inv. saves..... :-D
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2009/01/16 15:33:29
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
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If you attach the Chappy to the Vanguards, they lose their Herioc Intervention ability. I really don't like how insanely expensive the Vnaguard unit is either, you can get 7 Assualt Terminators for less points than those 5 Vanguards. Maybe drop some bells and whistles in the Vanguard unit in favor of some more bodies.
Why waste the Captain's I5 on a strikes last weapon? Do his hellfire rounds ever actually do anything? I'd swap out the Hammer and Hellfire Rounds for a power weapon or lightning claw to take advantage of his initiative. Would the Chaplain function better if he was a Chapter Master? Since he can't attach to the Vanguards and be useful, he seems subpar. A chapter master will get you that orbital strike, as well as another solid CC character to stick in a drop pod or on a bike.
I'd switch the weapons in the tac squads around as well. If you're podding in and trying to get the pods close to the opposing army so the Vanguards and Termies can land without scatter and be placed where they can do the most damage, you don't have to worry much about range. With this in mind, the Multimelta seems much better than the ML since its AP1 lets it kill tanks with glancing hits. I'm not sure if a combi-flamer and a normal meltagun would be preferable to a combi-melta and normal flamer, but its worth considering both options. You seem to have a fair amount of melta in the list already, so maybe stick with the flamers.
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2009/01/16 17:36:57
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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So basically, you would change everything BUT the termies, and bikes :-)
Truth be told, the only reason the Tac squads have anything but bolters in the first place, is that they're free. With the V5's wound allocation system Tactical squads are just about worthless as a weapon platform for anything but bolters.
I don't think I5 is wasted on a T-hammer, as it's really not that great in the first place. Most things I'll be hunting with the Captain will either be slow themselves, (Carnifexen or PK Orks) or faster than I5 anyway (Eldar). The biggest problem with P. fists or T. hammers
on Marines is living to use them, I believe with T5 and 2+/3+, this guy has a great shot at getting his chance.
I do appreciate the tips, they'll help me to realize where my weak points are, so I can try to cover them.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2009/01/16 17:43:43
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Its fun but awful.
First, you need three full Tacticals not more.
Captains are better in a supporting role. They are not cc monsters and die from a single S8 wound (power fist).
I'd take 3 Tacticals, one cheap Captain, the (funny) Vanguard unit, and some supporting units.
Say some Dreads in drop pods. 
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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2009/01/16 17:46:07
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
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I'd change the options around within the units,but I tried to keep the structure of the list the same as you have it posted.
the only thing I'd completely drop is the Chappy because he can't join the Vanguards if you want them to use Heroic Intervention.
Multimeltas in the tac squads are free 
The Captain can be squished by any of the slower things you just mentioned. With a Relic Blade he'll stand a decent chance of sticking an Ork or two and then living to do it again next turn. Otherwise, he'll just be singled out and punked by a Klaw or two. Even if you line up the combat so your character can only be nailed by one or two guys with Klaws, they'll probably kill him at the same time you kill them. Its up to you if you want to trade your HQ for a Nob or two. Really, for chasing around high strength things like PowerKlaws, you want something thats got Eternal Warrior so it can live through a round of klaw attacks. In any case, its extremely important that you get the charge and arrange the initial combat to your advantage.
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2009/01/16 17:57:47
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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LOL Caffran your point about the MM's is duly noted, and has reminded me of a point I forgot to make:
I actually have (most of) the models for this army. (No foot mounted MM's in my collection)
I still need to put together the Vanguard, and buy the assault Termies, and one more pod for this list. I'll think about dropping out the chaplain, maybe take a command squad for the captain instead.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2009/01/16 19:32:56
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
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oh gotcha, I didn't know that  The suggestions I made were with doing well in tournaments in mind. As the list stands, it will still be a solid army and you should do well. It probably won't be contending with Nob Bikes, Lash and Demons at the top tables, but you shouldn't do bad with it by any means.
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2009/01/16 19:43:49
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Sort of off topic here, but along the lines of the command squad on bikes, if you give your captain a jump pack can the command squad have them too? It's not in the codex, is it blood angels only (honor guard)?
Sorry for the noob question, I'm just getting back into this game after quite some time off.
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Nuclear: Properly pronounced new-clear, not new-cue-lir. There is no 'u' between the c and l, so stop saying it because it just makes you sound like a dumbass. This includes nucleolus, and all other derivatives of the word.
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2009/01/16 20:50:41
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Yes, only Blood Angels can take a command squad (honor guard) with jump packs.
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In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer |
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2009/01/24 02:35:39
Subject: Re:1750 SM list. Critiques please.
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Ok so I've found models and re-wrtten the list, and the only thing I still need to get is one Drop Pod.
Firescars Chapter Space Marines:
H.Q.
1 Captain Brond James Westonthall 200
-S.M Captain, Bike, TH & SS, Melta bombs, Artificer armor
1 Captain Antharus Silvermane (Counts as Vulkan Hestan) 190
ELITES
1 Assault Terminator Squad 200
- Assault Terminator (x4) TH & SS (x4)
- Assault Terminator Sergeat TH & SS
TROOPS
1 Tactical Squad 240
-Space Marine (x9)
- Flamer, Multimelta
-Space Marine Sergeant
- Power Weapon, Combi - Melta
- Drop Pod
-Locator Beacon
1 Tactical Squad 240
-Space Marine (x9)
- Flamer, Multimelta
-Space Marine Sergeant
- Power Weapon, Combi - Melta
- Drop Pod
-Locator Beacon
1 S.M. Bike Squad 185
- Space Marine Biker (x4)
- Meltagun (x2)
-Space Marine Biker Sergeant
-Power Fist
1 S.M. Bike Squad 185
- Space Marine Biker (x4)
- Meltagun (x2)
-Space Marine Biker Sergeant
-Power Fist
FAST ATTACK
1 Vanguard Veteran Squad 310
- Vanguard Veteran (x4)
-Jump Pack (x4), SS (x4), LC (x4)
-Vanguard Veteran Sergeant
Jump Pack, SS, LC
TOTAL: 1750
Well There it is. Gonna try to edit the title as well so people know to look down the list. Let me know how this list looks.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/24 02:38:42
Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2009/01/24 04:03:17
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please. ****REVISED LIST*****
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Regular Dakkanaut
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From my experience, biker squads of 5 models are a little squishy. They don't have enough wounds. Adding attack bikes helps, but also making them full size squads makes them al ot more survivable.
I would recommend you take a look at changing the captain to Kor'sarro Khan so those biker squads are troop units. I would also drop the vanguard squad and add a command squad on bikes with the same load-out, LC and SS. Then you have FNP on top of that for pretty much the same points.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/24 04:04:28
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2009/01/24 05:50:56
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please. ****REVISED LIST*****
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Regular Dakkanaut
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They currently are troops simply because his captain is on a bike. Khan isnt a great buy, except for his chapter tactics and if you give him biker command. otherwise he is a little overcosted for what you get.
The bikes are a little small for great effectiveness, however, if you shepherd them well, they can be great objective cappers, and support chargers. If you just want them for tankhunting, use attack bikes instead. Attack bikes get you a melta per 50 pts, have 2 wounds, and have double range. If you want them for other roles, 2X plasma may be a better option. or a flamer.
I would strongly caution against vanguard. they are VERY expensive and totally dependant on locator beacons to be useful. without them they greatly lose effectiveness. Consider a landraider for the terminators. 5 assault terminators need to DS to make combat, and even then, at 5 models strong, you are going to have a hard time finding an opponent who can't kill them down to a much more manageable number before they can hit his lines. 10 is a safer drop, however at that point you are practically paying for a landraider already, might as well get your AV 14 bucket of fun with TL lascannons.
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2009/01/24 06:42:55
Subject: Re:1750 SM list. Critiques please. ****REVISED LIST*****
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Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine
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A couple of things I would suggest and a couple of questions. The Vanguard I have seen played have not worked out so well as they tend to be easy to kill and not very effective for their cost. Secondly, In Terminator Assault Squads it seems that it is usually better to take a couple of twin linked lightining claws in with your TH/SS and it is always best to put these guys in a landraider. Put your Captain into Terminator armor or better yet take a Chaplain in terminator armor instead and stick him with the Terminators in a landraider instead of the Vanguard and your "counts as" Hestan Captain.
Also, are you planning on facing an inordinate amount of armor? Why not have your Tactical squads have Missile Launchers or Heavy Bolters for some troop killing ability? Every one of your units is basically designed to have to get close to be truly effective. Don't you want to be able to have at least one squad abble to provide some fire support at range?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/24 06:44:32
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2009/01/24 07:50:58
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please. ****REVISED LIST*****
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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0ldsk00l wrote:They currently are troops simply because his captain is on a bike. Khan isnt a great buy, except for his chapter tactics and if you give him biker command. otherwise he is a little overcosted for what you get.
The bikes are a little small for great effectiveness, however, if you shepherd them well, they can be great objective cappers, and support chargers. If you just want them for tankhunting, use attack bikes instead. Attack bikes get you a melta per 50 pts, have 2 wounds, and have double range. If you want them for other roles, 2X plasma may be a better option. or a flamer.
I would strongly caution against vanguard. they are VERY expensive and totally dependant on locator beacons to be useful. without them they greatly lose effectiveness. Consider a landraider for the terminators. 5 assault terminators need to DS to make combat, and even then, at 5 models strong, you are going to have a hard time finding an opponent who can't kill them down to a much more manageable number before they can hit his lines. 10 is a safer drop, however at that point you are practically paying for a landraider already, might as well get your AV 14 bucket of fun with TL lascannons.
These are all good points, however I'll point out what I pointed out to Caffran:
These are all models I already own; no assault bikes in my collection. (I actually had to convert all the TH's in my army, and the 2 multi meltas [had to use pintle mounted meltas for my infantry]) I don't like fielding LR's unless I can field a pair and I only own the one LRC (which needs re-assembling). However I now have a better understanding of the list's weaknesses, so I can try to cover them with it's strenghts.
@Hialmar:
Yes all my units are pretty much "in your face", but that's the type of list I want to play right now; the stand off and shoot method seems to be the SM's bane in the current edition. I figure the mobility should make up for the lack of range.
I don't have any regular opponents at this time, so no definite ideas about armor, it just seemed to be a weak point of this list, and TL s8 ap1 puts the hurt down on anything.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2009/01/24 16:57:33
Subject: Re:1750 SM list. Critiques please. ****REVISED LIST*****
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Incorporating Wet-Blending
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Harmless bump.
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Mannahnin wrote:A lot of folks online (and in emails in other parts of life) use pretty mangled English. The idea is that it takes extra effort and time to write properly, and they’d rather save the time. If you can still be understood, what’s the harm? While most of the time a sloppy post CAN be understood, the use of proper grammar, punctuation, and spelling is generally seen as respectable and desirable on most forums. It demonstrates an effort made to be understood, and to make your post an easy and pleasant read. By making this effort, you can often elicit more positive responses from the community, and instantly mark yourself as someone worth talking to.
insaniak wrote: Every time someone threatens violence over the internet as a result of someone's hypothetical actions at the gaming table, the earth shakes infinitisemally in its orbit as millions of eyeballs behind millions of monitors all roll simultaneously.
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2009/01/29 14:33:15
Subject: 1750 SM list. Critiques please. ****REVISED LIST*****
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Dispassionate Imperial Judge
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I think maybe some of the squads are too tooled up for the points. VVs are a good example. You need to allow a couple of extra bodies in there, otherwise you're paying a massive points cost for models that are almost certainly gonna die.
Also, bear in mind that, if you equip your bike squads for AT and send them forward in the first few turns of the game, it's unlikely they'll still be around to grab objectives in turns 5/6/7. Regular bike squads are best used as a manouverable fire support unit than a main, in-your-face squad...
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