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Mortar (G48")
Barrage, Rulebook, page 32

Death raining from the sky is a truly terrifying experience, therefore all barrage weapons are pinning weapons as well.

Pinning, Rulebook, page 31

If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immidiately take a Pinning test.

How do I actually do it?
Do I roll the dice seperatly for each mortar in the squad to keep track of the number of Mortars that have actually caused wounds (to determine the number of Pinning tests required)? How do you do this if the number of hands required exceeds two? Holding three blastmarkers steady and rolling dice at the same time, is a bit of a chore, I tell you.

How do you guys do it?

Well, I'd guess each blast may incur pinning tests. so, in the rare case that all three mortars managed to score wounds, you get three pin tests. One each, regardless of how many they scored.

And only do one blast at a time so you don't get a headache!

Yes, each shot incurs a Pinning test, that isn't the problem.

You can't do one blast at a time due to the Multible Barrages rule.

You might have to plase the blast as a barage but you can still use different collor dice for each of them.

Example:
A moratar squad fires and two of its balats hit the enemy unit one hits 3 models an the other 2, so you roll to wound with 3 green dice and 2 blue, and then move on to saves, casualties and pinning test.

Steelmage99 wrote:
Pinning, Rulebook, page 31

If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immediately take a Pinning test.

How do I actually do it?
Do I roll the dice seperatly for each mortar in the squad to keep track of the number of Mortars that have actually caused wounds (to determine the number of Pinning tests required)? How do you do this if the number of hands required exceeds two? Holding three blastmarkers steady and rolling dice at the same time, is a bit of a chore, I tell you.

How do you guys do it?

Wow. This is a really, really good question! How have I never noticed up until this point that they changed the wording for pinning in 5th edition. They most certainly got rid of 'all the pinning weapons from a single enemy unit' bit, but I'm still not entirely sure what the rule as written is supposed to mean. Since all wounds are inflicted from a single enemy unit at the same time does this mean only a single pinning test is taken per enemy unit firing?

Or is it really one per weapon as long as it causes one or more wounds (but only one test is taken per weapon)?


It really can be interpreted either way IMHO.


Obviously multiple pin checks from a single unit would make things like Tau Pulse carbines much better!

I think I might have to run a poll on this topic.

I have seen it come up in other forums, and the consensus seems to still run it per unit firing. Partly since all shooting is simultaneous, and partly because otherwise it makes some units *really* powerful, and partly because it can really slow down the game.

But that isn't really what the rules say, now is it, coredump?

Why is there a need for a consensus when the rules are clear?

And partly because it used to be written that way.

looks to be per wound from each weapon like the book says.
snipers got nasty if you follow RAW versus old rules.

Looks like it really is per weapon. 3 weapons = 3 pinning tests, assuming unsaved wounds from all 3.

It seems like this basically triples the amount of time taken for resolution versus mortar attacks, but whether or not that becomes significant will probably depend on how much fearless spam you regularly field against.

Steelmage99 wrote:Pinning, Rulebook, page 31

If a unit other than a vehicle suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon, it must immidiately take a Pinning test.

I think it is rather vague. The problem with the interpretation that each weapon causes its own pin check is the fact that all unsaved wounds happen at the same time. For example, unit A shoots at unit B with 3 seperate pinning weapons. To hit rolls are made...lets say they all hit. To wound rolls are made...lets say they all wound. Wounds are allocated to members of unit B. Once all that is done, all saves are rolled at the same time and casualties are removed. So the unit suffered unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon at this point and must take a test. However it isn't clear if they must take 1 test or 3. Former precident says that it should just be 1 but since the wording is different, we can't assume that is the case anymore. If the resolution of combat had stages or if there was a way for some unsaved wounds to happen before others, then you could certainly have to make multiple pin checks since it specifies that you must make such tests immidiatly upon suffering the unsaved wounds.

I would argue that the language of the text suggests that only one pin check be made. This is because of the use of the word "any" (being 1 or more) and the use of the plural "unsaved wounds" followed by the singular "Pinning test". This selection of words would seem to suggest that one or more wounds would lead to a single test.

Yeah but a single mortar is easely capable of inflicting more than 1 wound while sill causing only 1 pinning test

Phoenix wrote:I would argue that the language of the text suggests that only one pin check be made. This is because of the use of the word "any" (being 1 or more) and the use of the plural "unsaved wounds" followed by the singular "Pinning test". This selection of words would seem to suggest that one or more wounds would lead to a single test.

I'd say that RAW suggests "any wounds" limits the test to one test per weapon per firing phase. If the wording said "...suffers an unsaved wound from a pinning weapon..." then a single weapon like a Mortar, capable of inflicting many wounds, would force as many pinning tests as it caused unsaved wounds. When I read the rule the way you're suggesting, I still can't discount that the test is tied to the pinning weapon, and therefore multiple weapons would force multiple tests.

Phoenix wrote:I think it is rather vague. The problem with the interpretation that each weapon causes its own pin check is the fact that all unsaved wounds happen at the same time. For example, unit A shoots at unit B with 3 seperate pinning weapons. To hit rolls are made...lets say they all hit. To wound rolls are made...lets say they all wound. Wounds are allocated to members of unit B. Once all that is done, all saves are rolled at the same time and casualties are removed. So the unit suffered unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon at this point and must take a test. However it isn't clear if they must take 1 test or 3. Former precident says that it should just be 1 but since the wording is different, we can't assume that is the case anymore. If the resolution of combat had stages or if there was a way for some unsaved wounds to happen before others, then you could certainly have to make multiple pin checks since it specifies that you must make such tests immidiatly upon suffering the unsaved wounds.

This is no different than having to make saves against different kinds of weapons - "make a cover save against the plasma wound, and armor saves against the bolters," or "make 3 saves for Pulse Rifles, and 1 for the Pulse Carbine."

I would argue that the language of the text suggests that only one pin check be made. This is because of the use of the word "any" (being 1 or more) and the use of the plural "unsaved wounds" followed by the singular "Pinning test". This selection of words would seem to suggest that one or more wounds would lead to a single test.

As noted, a single pinning weapon can cause many wounds, but necessitates only a single check. The issue is "from a pinning weapon" - as written, it definitely supports test/weapon, rather than test/unit. (If they had written it "any unsaved wounds from any pinning weapons," it would be much clearer.)

I agree with SourClams here. It looks like it is per weapon, and they just didn't take into consideration multiple wounds from multiple weapons in the same unit when they chose their words, so they didn't clarify one way or the other. As it is written though, it looks like for each weapon that causes a wound, roll to pin.

I vaguely remember there being a rumor in the hoary days before 5th edition was out that pinning weapons were going to either require multiple tests, or tests with negative modifiers per wound, but I sort of forgot in the rush of new rules.

As a Tau player, I would stand to greatly benefit from a RAW interpretation (one cannot deny the structure of the sentence, and the three words "from a weapon"). However, one must also consider the effect upon gameplay and the bigger picture. Can you imagine telling your opponent they need to take 8 pinning checks from a unit of 12 Pulse Carbine FW's firing at BS 5? 5th ed has been out for many months, and I have yet to see the pinning rules used this way, as I think most people view it in the 4th ed way. As coredump already stated, it has been discussed before by many a level head, and the difference between intent and reality are just as grey as ever.

We must be careful with throwing around RAW interpretations, because if we did every weapon destroyed on a Monolith would cause the number of shots at each target by the Gauss Flux Arc Projectors to increase by 1!

For everyone saying that "well that is how it was in 4th edition and it should be still read that way" think of it this way. What if you didn't start in 4th? What if 5th ed was your first time with the 40k universe. You would read it as RAW and as RAW your opponent takes pinning tests for every weapon that has dealt them a wound. I hope yakface comes up with an answer for us. There is no "well it makes more sense with the way it was in 4th ed". Though most people in here played 4th and it does make more sense for it to be that way. Again people who started in 5th ed only know 5th ed. So think about it that way. The discussion of 4th ed rules being brought into 5th ed hold no water. Two completely different rulebooks.

I agree there are alot of vague rules in 5th ed. This one is written pretty clearly if you are reading just the 5th ed book and not thinking 4th ed.

Hope this one gets FAQed. As it stands now, I would probably play it same as in 4ed.

I agreed I believe it should be the way it was in 4th ed and I believe our group will keep the 4th ed way unless an FAQ says otherwise. Though I wouldn't agrue with any someone about this if they tried to push it since it is pretty clearly written in the book. I hope it gets FAQ'ed

Plastic People wrote:For everyone saying that "well that is how it was in 4th edition and it should be still read that way" think of it this way. What if you didn't start in 4th? What if 5th ed was your first time with the 40k universe. You would read it as RAW and as RAW your opponent takes pinning tests for every weapon that has dealt them a wound. I hope yakface comes up with an answer for us. There is no "well it makes more sense with the way it was in 4th ed". Though most people in here played 4th and it does make more sense for it to be that way. Again people who started in 5th ed only know 5th ed. So think about it that way. The discussion of 4th ed rules being brought into 5th ed hold no water. Two completely different rulebooks.

I agree there are alot of vague rules in 5th ed. This one is written pretty clearly if you are reading just the 5th ed book and not thinking 4th ed.

I don't have any information you don't have on this matter.


But I do disagree with your assessment that coming at it from just this edition's rules text makes the issue clear, and in fact I think the opposite is true.

One of the most clear indications that they actually intend for every weapon to inflict a separate pinning test is the fact that the wording has been changed from 4th to 5th edition (in 4th edition it clearly said that all pinning weapons from a single enemy unit only caused a single pinning check).


Approaching the situation fresh from just 5th edition is not so clear, IMHO because all wounds from an enemy unit are inflicted at the same time and therefore it is a bit ambiguous.


Either way they actually wanted it played they most definitely could have done a better job expressing it.

Idk maybe it is just me and that I see it clearly. Since any unsaved wounds from a weapon is simply that. It doesn't read group, unit, phase, anything like that. Again perhaps it is just mean and I'm just reading the words as they are written and not actually trying to make sense of them.

Plastic People wrote:Idk maybe it is just me and that I see it clearly. Since any unsaved wounds from a weapon is simply that. It doesn't read group, unit, phase, anything like that. Again perhaps it is just mean and I'm just reading the words as they are written and not actually trying to make sense of them.

I fully 'get' where you're coming from and like I said I'm inclined to agree with you. However, the pinning rule is written from the perspective of how the weapon type works. And it simply says that if a unit suffers any unsaved wounds from a pinning weapon (this could be the general term for the weapon type) then a pinning test is made.

So again, the way it is written can be interpreted that no matter how many wounds are suffered from a pinning weapon (with the concept being this is the weapon type not actually a single weapon) then "a" (singular) pinning test is immediately taken.

Ok I see what you are saying and was also thinking this on my drive home from work(I work right down the street from where i live). So basically the rules could also read if a unit takes unsaved wounds from say...pulse carbines*...then it would only have to take one test per squad. However if the unit were to take wounds from a group of tau pathfinders which have rail rilfes and pulse carbins it may have to take two pinning tests from one squad since these are two different types of weapons?(edit: though I can't think of any other squad that can have two types of pinning weapons at once)

Since all shooting from a single unit is simultaneous, doesn't taking 1 pinning test once that shooting is complete satisfy the requirement?

I take hits from 3 IG mortars. Once the wounds have been resolved I take a pinning test. Nothing suggests to me that separate pinning tests need to be taken for each wound, or each weapon. It doesn't say "for each pinning wound/weapon, take a separate pinning test" - just "take a pinning test".

I'm will you Boss Ardnutz. one weapon , no matter how many wounds should be one pinning test

Plastic People wrote:For everyone saying that "well that is how it was in 4th edition and it should be still read that way" think of it this way. What if you didn't start in 4th? What if 5th ed was your first time with the 40k universe. You would read it as RAW and as RAW your opponent takes pinning tests for every weapon that has dealt them a wound. I hope yakface comes up with an answer for us. There is no "well it makes more sense with the way it was in 4th ed". Though most people in here played 4th and it does make more sense for it to be that way. Again people who started in 5th ed only know 5th ed. So think about it that way. The discussion of 4th ed rules being brought into 5th ed hold no water. Two completely different rulebooks.

I agree there are alot of vague rules in 5th ed. This one is written pretty clearly if you are reading just the 5th ed book and not thinking 4th ed.

I just started playing about a month ago, so only 5th edition, and had never thought that this rule meant each individual weapon. From what I've read I guess I just always assumed it meant per unit, like 4th edition. So only one test per unit. Though I can see how it could be per weapon so, for instance, if I've got a unit of sniper scouts with Sgt Telion in charge that could be two seperate morale checks as the scouts are using sniper rifles and the Sgt is using his special bolter. Guess I'll have to see how it's played at my LGS.

coredump wrote:I have seen it come up in other forums, and the consensus seems to still run it per unit firing. Partly since all shooting is simultaneous, and partly because otherwise it makes some units *really* powerful, and partly because it can really slow down the game.

My pathfinders sure don't seem OP when i do the math on my fav target:
10 shots, 5 hits, 2.5 wounds, +- half of this goes thru the 3+ save, the other half is either rending or AP1 form the gun, and comes out as: 1,25+1,25/3= 1.66 wounds
Let's say that half the time they cause 1 test half the time 2 tests.
[Sarcasm]Wow that means my chances to actually cause pinning have increased from 1 in 12 to a whopping 1 in 8.[/sarcasm]


I'll agree that it would have been a little OP in 4th, but it isn't in 5th where everyone can run and snipers get less time to do their job, they also hit alot less than before, and are at increased risk from an outflanking move and lets not forget the abundance of fearless units... They're also static troops, they either shoot or move for objectives, not both. That and the meta game is slowly changing to more flamers to cope with the omnipresent 4+cover saves.