Question for Yakface....

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**fenrir31**

Does a plague marine get a FNP roll when a plasma gun "Gets Hot" I say it does because the gets hot rule states all normal saves apply but one of the guys in my group says they don't because the plasma gun is AP2 I've tried to tell him that if that was the case and rule I wouldn't get the armor save.

Help a brother out

Thanks

**AffliKtion**

It does get the FNP because you're not shooting yourself with the AP2, you are merely taking a side effect of shooting the gun, not the round(or superheated material) itself.

This came up previously for me as well, and I hope its the right answer

**Marius Xerxes**

The BRB says that the model suffers a wound. It does not specify that the wound has any kind of AP value attached to it.

So yes, you would get FNP against it as it doesnt give any specification otherwise.

**enmitee**

if he stills get the armor save. he still gets the FNP

**Iron_Chaos_Brute**

They don't shoot themselves, so they get regular save and FNP. PMs make great PG troops.

**1hadhq**

FNP cannot be used against:
(BRB page 75)

- ID = weapons of 2x str vs T
> so plaguemarines cant use it against S 8-10 weapons

- CCW ignoring armorsaves ( pfist,Lightningclaw,powerweapon,DCCW.....)

- rending attacks ( and a roll of 6 )

-dangers of the warp

-dangerous terrain test failed

-weapons with AP 1 or 2
> so plasmaguns ( ap 2) don't allow FNP

**Lordhat**

1hadhq wrote:FNP cannot be used against:
(BRB page 75)

- ID = weapons of 2x str vs T
> so plaguemarines cant use it against S 8-10 weapons

- CCW ignoring armorsaves ( pfist,Lightningclaw,powerweapon,DCCW.....)

- rending attacks ( and a roll of 6 )

-dangers of the warp

-dangerous terrain test failed

-weapons with AP 1 or 2
> so plasmaguns ( ap 2) don't allow FNP

However the overheat wound has NO strength, and NO AP associated with it. it is just a 'wound'. FNP applies.

**1hadhq**

Lordhat wrote:
However the overheat wound has NO strength, and NO AP associated with it. it is just a 'wound'. FNP applies.

How should GW insert an S or AP stat in a rule used by ALL codices?
Because "gets hot" could be applied at different weapons,so how may GW add a S or AP to this rule?

Its obviuos that the "used" weapon apply the S and AP.

Plus FNP doesn't allow to roll against ap 2 weapons.

Plus a normal wound wouldn't be saved by FNP ( 4+), evreyone would use the armorsave (3+) of the plaguemarine then.

**Vaktathi**

If you can get an armor save against it, you get FNP against it.

Gets Hot! has *nothing* to do with the plasma guns S or AP value, it merely inflicts *a* wound that all normal saves may be taken against.

Think of it as the difference between being shot directly, and having a major malfunction where the barrel explodes. Sure the latter has the potential to inflict serious harm, but not as much as getting shot directly.

**Anung Un Rama**

"Get's Hot" says that the model takes a wound against which he could still use his normal armor save. And if he can use his armor save, there is no reason why he shouldn't use FnP as well.

@OP: It's much more fun to argue for 2 pages before Yakface comes in and speaks a "Machtwort". Just state your rules question in the name of the thread.

**Ancalagon The Black**

Nowhere in the rule for Gets Hot! does it state something along the lines of "if you roll a 1 when rolling to hit, resolve the shot against yourself".

Its a malfunction of the weapon, not you shooting your own model. And since normal armour saves apply, FNP works just fine against this wound.

**JD21290**

the wound is subject to the overheating, not a direct shot from the PG.
it doesent state a strength or AP for the wound taken, so it would be treated as a basic wound with no AP value.

so yes, FNP will be allowed along with the save as normal.

**usernamesareannoying**

yes, you get FNP...

**Lordhat**

1hadhq wrote:
Lordhat wrote:
However the overheat wound has NO strength, and NO AP associated with it. it is just a 'wound'. FNP applies.

How should GW insert an S or AP stat in a rule used by ALL codices?
Because "gets hot" could be applied at different weapons,so how may GW add a S or AP to this rule?

Its obviuos that the "used" weapon apply the S and AP.

Well if GW intended you to use the STR and AP of the weapon itself, then they could have just said so: "...the model suffers one wound using the Str and AP of the overheated weapon." There is no indication that this is the procedure, there never has been any indication that this is so. Several rules just inflict a wound without mention of strength or AP; If armor saves apply, you're told so, same with invulnerable saves. In order to ignore FNP the wound must match the criteria (overheat does not), or have a notation that is does so (overheat does not).

1hadhq wrote:
Plus a normal wound wouldn't be saved by FNP ( 4+), evreyone would use the armorsave (3+) of the plaguemarine then.

You DO realize that FNP is in addition to a failed armor or invulnerable save, right?

**Ghaz**

1hadhq wrote:Its obviuos that the "used" weapon apply the S and AP.

Acftually the rules make it obvious that you do not. From page 31 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound...

Now where does it say or even mply that model is 'hit' by a shot from his own weapon? It does not. You suffer a wound, not a hit from your own weapon.

**Marius Xerxes**

Ghaz wrote:
1hadhq wrote:Its obviuos that the "used" weapon apply the S and AP.

Acftually the rules make it obvious that you do not. From page 31 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

For each result of a 1 rolled on its to hit rolls, the firing model suffers a wound...

Now where does it say or even mply that model is 'hit' by a shot from his own weapon? It does not. You suffer a wound, not a hit from your own weapon.

Preciesly. Not to mention that anyone with T3 or lower, by the logic other people are presenting, would suffer ID for the wound coming from a weapon which is double toughness. This is not the case anymore then it being a AP 2 wound is.

**Drunkspleen**

Just to play devils advocate, could the argument be made that the wound is inflicted by the plasmagun (it has the gets hot rule not the firer) regardless of the AP value the wound possesses (none) which makes it a "Wound from an AP1 or AP2 weapon" and prevents you from taking a feel no pain save?

**usernamesareannoying**

Drunkspleen wrote:Just to play devils advocate, could the argument be made that the wound is inflicted by the plasmagun (it has the gets hot rule not the firer) regardless of the AP value the wound possesses (none) which makes it a "Wound from an AP1 or AP2 weapon" and prevents you from taking a feel no pain save?

no as this is not what it says...

**Drunkspleen**

usernamesareannoying wrote:
Drunkspleen wrote:Just to play devils advocate, could the argument be made that the wound is inflicted by the plasmagun (it has the gets hot rule not the firer) regardless of the AP value the wound possesses (none) which makes it a "Wound from an AP1 or AP2 weapon" and prevents you from taking a feel no pain save?
no as this is not what it says...

I'll have to remember that argument for next time a rules question gets brought up in one of my games...

**AffliKtion**

Drunkspleen wrote:
usernamesareannoying wrote:
Drunkspleen wrote:Just to play devils advocate, could the argument be made that the wound is inflicted by the plasmagun (it has the gets hot rule not the firer) regardless of the AP value the wound possesses (none) which makes it a "Wound from an AP1 or AP2 weapon" and prevents you from taking a feel no pain save?
no as this is not what it says...

I'll have to remember that argument for next time a rules question gets brought up in one of my games...

Think about it logically. Fire any gun long enough and then touch the barrel, what's going to happen? You're going to get seared and suffer a "wound". Fire the gun long enough and it will eventually melt or explode certain firing mechanisms. Plasma is so potent, that an inexperienced user could overfire the weapon and cause it to explode. This however does not mean that the shooter somehow shoots himself. Sure the blast is enough to kill if it knicks him in the neck or head, but thats what the armor save is for.

**Drunkspleen**

AffliKtion wrote:Think about it logically. Fire any gun long enough and then touch the barrel, what's going to happen? You're going to get seared and suffer a "wound". Fire the gun long enough and it will eventually melt or explode certain firing mechanisms. Plasma is so potent, that an inexperienced user could overfire the weapon and cause it to explode. This however does not mean that the shooter somehow shoots himself. Sure the blast is enough to kill if it knicks him in the neck or head, but thats what the armor save is for.

Yeah, I agree on a logical front, but I'm talking from a purely RAW perspective and I feel there's a case for being wounded by an AP2 weapon, even if the wound isn't at AP2, preventing feel no pain from working based on how it's worded.

**Lordhat**

However the PG isn't causing the wound. It's the 'Gets Hot!" rule causing the wound. Much in the same way, when a Librarian uses the Smite power, and rolls a perils of the warp; Smite isn't causing the wound, it's the Perils of the Warp rule.

EDIT: Woot! 1,000 posts!

**Marius Xerxes**

Yes but you would have to deny an amour save. You cant in one hand say you were wounded by an AP 2 weapon, but deny it in another.

Being wounded by a AP 2 Weapon would be .. being wounded by an AP 2 weapon at all times. So you would have to argue to deny a amour save as well, which there is no argument for.

So if there was an amour save allowed, then no AP 2 shot was suffered.

**usernamesareannoying**

Drunkspleen wrote:
usernamesareannoying wrote:
Drunkspleen wrote:Just to play devils advocate, could the argument be made that the wound is inflicted by the plasmagun (it has the gets hot rule not the firer) regardless of the AP value the wound possesses (none) which makes it a "Wound from an AP1 or AP2 weapon" and prevents you from taking a feel no pain save?
no as this is not what it says...

I'll have to remember that argument for next time a rules question gets brought up in one of my games...

it says if you roll a 1 you take a wound(normal saves apply). it doesn't say you get hit by the weapon, you shoot yourself in the foot or you take a hit with the AP of the weapon. stop trying to read stuff into a clear rule. there's already enough ambiguous answers in the game.

**JD21290**

being shot with the plasma causes AP2, not the gun overheating, overheating is just a side effect from it rather than its main function, should be pretty simple to see o.o

**Saldiven**

1hadhq wrote:
Lordhat wrote:
However the overheat wound has NO strength, and NO AP associated with it. it is just a 'wound'. FNP applies.

How should GW insert an S or AP stat in a rule used by ALL codices?
Because "gets hot" could be applied at different weapons,so how may GW add a S or AP to this rule?

Its obviuos that the "used" weapon apply the S and AP.

Plus FNP doesn't allow to roll against ap 2 weapons.
Plus a normal wound wouldn't be saved by FNP ( 4+), evreyone would use the armorsave (3+) of the plaguemarine then.

It is completely not obvious. The Gets Hot! rule states that the model carrying the weapon takes a wound with normal armor saves allowed. It nowhere states that the model carrying the weapon takes a wound as if hit by the weapon itself.

You are reading rules into the book and using "obvious" as your justification. You are arguing your perception of intent rather than what is stated in the Gets Hot! rule.

**Webbe**

Hmm, I'm not so sure about RAW any longer. FNP is technically no save (it's never called so in the rules, it's basically a wound ignoring ability) so would not be affected by the "normal saves apply" rule.

FNP doesn't work against AP1 or AP2 weapons. A plasma gun is definitely an AP2 weapon.
So even if you weren't wounded by a hit from the weapon, but a special rule, it was still the weapon that caused the wound (via the Gets hot! rule) and as the weapon (ie not the wound) is an AP2 weapon you don't get FNP.

**usernamesareannoying**

Webbe wrote:Hmm, I'm not so sure about RAW any longer. FNP is technically no save (it's never called so in the rules, it's basically a wound ignoring ability) so would not be affected by the "normal saves apply" rule.

FNP doesn't work against AP1 or AP2 weapons. A plasma gun is definitely an AP2 weapon.
So even if you weren't wounded by a hit from the weapon, but a special rule, it was still the weapon that caused the wound (via the Gets hot! rule) and as the weapon (ie not the wound) is an AP2 weapon you don't get FNP.

thats a misquote. you dont get FNP when you take a wound fron an AP 1 or 2 weapon. The difference here is that the wound is not from an AP2 weapon, the wound is a result of the gets hot special rule. AP, strength and the weapon itself is irrelevant, its the effect of a special rule that is giving you the wound.

**Webbe**

So you claim the wound is not caused by the weapon?
Then what caused it?

Can you support this argument further because it seems weird.

**olympia**

FNP is clearly applicable to the wound in question.