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I noticed there are no tips or guide lines to help new swap shop users , so i'll take some time
to write down some basic important things we need to know!

1) Not discriminating new users or anything, but usually seller with 1st post on dakka been selling a $1000 army for 70% off is fishy.

2) Always use confirmation . This way when you trade, the other guy would know you sent him something.
Also 100% must for sellers. Keep receipt till the customer receives the package , better yet take a photo of the receipt before throwing it away.

3) When accepting paypal , need to watch out for 2 things. a) Verified paypal is a must. b) The paypal address is best if it matches the
shipping address. Makes things way easier if trouble occurs. If a and b does not match, better to pass on accepting their payment.
Thats how i lost my $1000 when i sold my WoW stuff -_-

3) Ask for photos , detailed if possible if the item is stated as used / primed / or painted. Chances are the seller are hiding the facts
that the minis are in bad shape. When stated as primed, always ask if its 1 coat. I know many seller coat over the bad paint jobs in attempt
to mask it. Photos also confirms 2 basic things. a) chances of the sales item actually exist are higher . b) sometimes scammers use the same
photos, over and over again. This way we can identify the seller even if the ID is different.

4) Make sure both sides are on the same currency!

5) Checking for counterfeits . If a seller is selling endless supply of LE items, ask him to provide actual photos, front and back.
Check for the metal tab of the mini that goes into the slota base. It usually have GW ( date ) carved into it. Many of the counterfeiters
does not include this. Lead is also the cheapest material i believe to properly cast the metal minis in ( with less obvious color difference, still silvery )
Im not an alchemist so i know nothing about detecting lead :"P but GW have been using lead free pewter for awhile now.

Thats all i can think of, if mod feel like sticky this , please feel free.
There are more things that are missing but its midnight and my brain just died on me :"P

LunaHound wrote:
I noticed there are no tips or guide lines to help new swap shop users , so i'll take some time
to write down some basic important things we need to know!

'Ere we go!

1) 70% off anything is fishy. Gamers aren't known for their altruism.
2) Always use TRACKING. Signed Delivery is a great way to do that domestically/internationally (downside: not cheap).
3) Tell us you didn't sell a World of Warcraft account then ship first?
3) <- again? I disagree on principle for repeating numbers! But I agree with asking for photo's.
4) Discrimination will not be tolerated!
5) Errata:
Games Workshop miniatures may or may not have a slotta tab. Those that do may have info embossed or carved on them - it depends on the model. Used models may not have tabs. That being said GW has a Down and Dirty Basic how-to on identifying counterfeits short of a metallurgical analysis:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/legal/counterfeiters

LunaHound wrote:
Im not an alchemist so i know nothing about detecting lead :"P but GW have been using lead free pewter for awhile now.

Thats all i can think of, if mod feel like sticky this , please feel free.
There are more things that are missing but its midnight and my brain just died on me :"P

You know that PM you wrote titled "ah i see i see"? Do you think you could've been more subtle considering what you thought you saw? 'Ere we are! post it note - GW alloy's still have lead in them.

Get the persons phone number.

and address.

always ;P

All of the above and may I suggest this one:

Actually keep up with any communication with seller/buyer. Get confirmation emails/pm's about your transaction and notify the respective parties of when you send/receive whatever you're trading.

Make sure - when you ship items out, if its over 250$ you HAVE to use signature confirmation.

There is a way to get jacked from PP. Its in the written details on PP's site.

A Few words here on shipping and postage from a displaced U.S. Postal Letter Carrier as it pretains to the United States Postal Service.

I've seen a lot of people talk about shipping and the best way/cheapest way to ship. We all know you can send items through first-class mail (Buy a stamp, stick it to an envelope, drop it in the blue box) but what happens ater you send that item? Believe it or not the way you mail something makes a SIGNIFICANT difference on how it's handled.

Here I'm going to explain the behind-the-scenes on the different postal shipping options as well as a few notes on regulations and Mail Fraud.

1. The United States Postal Service offers several options when you ship, well, anything. You can send items regular first-class mail which is pretty common for unvaluable or solid goods. Picture the christmas package of cookies Grandma Josie sends you from Florida. Probably first-class mail. But there are several other methods of mail. Those include; Media Mail, Certified Mail and Registered Mail.

MEDIA MAIL is by far the cheapest method of shipping. Media Mail is reserved for medai though, such as books , video games and CD's. However, if you were to package something in a square-ish 8 1/2 by 11 inch box, who is to say what's inside isn't the Betty Crocker Cook Book. HOWEVER - BE WARE!!! There is a reason these items are dirt cheap to ship. They are handled just as poorly. Media Mail can take weeks to arrive to its desitnation. Also media mail parcels tend to be abused the most, thrown and tossed haphazardly in shipping., especially parcels wich clearly are not media mail (remember, books are A: heavy and B: Square.) Why is this? Beucase by taking the cheap way out the customer is taking away from a postman's retirement account, from postal jobs and from clerk work. Lastly Media Mail is not accountable and undeliverable media items may be tossed. Media Mail is also known as third-class mail and according to psotal regulations third-class mail delivered to invalid addresses or addresses with no forwarding address or an expired forwarding address is subject to be tossed and shredded. A kind letter carrier will bring the parcel back for the clerk to re-route (becuase, being a union shop, we like to make extra work for people to preserve our jobs) but other times it's shipper-beware.

FIRST CLASS-MAIL is the most common method of shipping. It takes a reasonable amout of time to ship, up to a week, but like Media Mail there's no real accountability. If you ship first-class and the parcel is lost, without insurance it's sionara! In addition FCM is sent in the regular mail stream (explained later).

It should also be noted that what you don't know won't hurt you. There is a lot of lost mail in the first-class mail stream. I once heard a stat of 2.5 percent. May not sound like much but for every 1 million letters that's still 25,000 a day.

CERTIFIED MAIL is IMHO the best way to ship something. Every parcel of Certified Mail has to be scanned into the computer of a letter carrier when it's recieved by that carrier and also when the parcel is delivered (this goes for letters to.) Before going out on the street the clerks make the letter carriers sign for batches of Certified Mail. Clerks are accountable for those items beforehand. This means there is a digital record of where a parcel/letter is at every step of the delivery process from the moment the parcel is stickered (at the post office from a clerk) to the moment it's delivered. When you send something certified save the little green slip you receive with the 16-digit number on it. That is the tracking number. With that number you can now track your parcel on-line!

Becuase certified mail is an accountable item even the crappiest of letter carriers take special precaution when handling it. That is, we make sure it gets scanned and delivered.

**Certified Mail is also a requirement for some options such as delivery confirmation, return reciept and insurance as described later.

So if you can track your parcel on-line, why bother with Delivery Confirmation and Return Reciept?

DELIVERY CONFERMATION and RETURN RECIEPT takes Certified to the next level and can be either a blessing or a curse. When you select DC and/or RR a little form is filled out. That form must then be signed by the recipient of the parcel at the address it's being delivered to. There is a box to check no signature required but most people don't check that box. This means if noone is home when the parcel is delivered (remember, it's a union shop, mail is delivered on the 9-5) then the parcel goes back to the post office for redelivery the next day but a card is left at the address stating they have a parcel. With Certified Mail delivery is attempted only once. The same process is for return reciept except a RR generates a similar signature card which then gets delivered to the origin.

I don't recommend it. Certified is enough to ensure your item is going where it needs to go and now with the advent of the internet and internet tracking DC and RR are sort of archeic.

REGISTERED MAIL is the most secure form of mail delivery. It's also costs a small fortune just to send a leter (like $10 now I think) but guess what, it will get there with no shenanigans. Both reigstered and certified mail are accountable, that is a clerk is signed for them and then signs those items over to a carrier to go on the street. The difference is if a letter carrier lost a certified item, not a big deal. They may get written up but that's it. If they lose a registered item, they are fired. Flat out, see you later, union can fight it but a least will get a suspension.

The post office doesn't play when it comes to Registered mail. If a RM piece is forgotten in the truck when the letter carrier goes out to the relay (as I have done before) that carrier will very often back-track to deliver the item. No one wants a registered in their posession. Furthermore, if there's noone available to sign for a registered piece of mail delivery will be attempted the next day!!! SO unlike certified the parcel isn't thrown on a shelf at the post office waiting for someone to pick it up. However, notice of attempted delivery is still given to the destination.

It's also important to know Registered Mail is also the ONLY WAY to ensure mail is recieved out of country. Certified is not an option for out of country delivery. Likewise, if you were shipping into the United States Registered is the only way to ensure the item gets to its destination.

INSURANCE is a great way to safeguard your investment. You should always buy insurance on certified items since there's a paper trail of the items travel and it's easy to justify where it has been and is going to. There are 2 levels of insurance. Under $200 and over $200. (Prices are per $100). Insured items under $200 are not accountable meaning you can have a piece of first-class mail insured for $100 and it will never be signed for or scanned. Items over $200 are scanned and signed for just like a certified piece with delivery confirmation which is just another reason delivery confirmation is redundant (since you should be insuring your parcels anyway)

FRAGILE is something you should write on EVERY Box you send. Why? Beucase according to postal regulations the maximum distance you're allowed to toss a parcel marked "fragile" is 10 feet! Yes, that means if it's not marked fragile they can throw it more than 10 feet! Plus, letter carriers aren't allowed to place fragile parcels on the bottom of their parcel hamper.

However, every now and then you do get a jerk letter carrier will toss fragile parcels that 10' just beucase he hates his job. That is one of the downfalls of "Fragile".


MAIL FRAUD: I've seen a lot of people invoke the term Mail Fraud in their discussions of being screwed in a deal. Guess what, being screwed in a deal is NOT mail fraud. Mail fraud involves using the U.S. Postal stream to actually commit your act of fraud. This could be in the form of sending out fliers for a fake charity (say, the DakkaDakka Jamboree for Testicular Cancer) and then collecting and pocketing the money for said fake charity. Another example are Ponzee schemes and the mystery shopper scams (Wikipedia those if you don't know what they are, they're a little more in depth than fake charities).

However, it is very important to know that agreeing to pay $100 for an Ork Stompa, sending out the money but either a. not getting a stompa in return, b. getting a very poorly painted stompa in return or c. getting a dreadnaught in return is NOT mail fraud.

2000 Volts wrote:A Few words here on shipping and postage from a displaced U.S. Postal Letter Carrier as it pretains to the United States Postal Service.
(...)
However, every now and then you do get a jerk letter carrier will toss fragile parcels that 10' just beucase he hates his job. That is one of the downfalls of "Fragile".


MAIL FRAUD: I've seen a lot of people invoke the term Mail Fraud in their discussions of being screwed in a deal. Guess what, being screwed in a deal is NOT mail fraud. Mail fraud involves using the U.S. Postal stream to actually commit your act of fraud. This could be in the form of sending out fliers for a fake charity (say, the DakkaDakka Jamboree for Testicular Cancer) and then collecting and pocketing the money for said fake charity. Another example are Ponzee schemes and the mystery shopper scams (Wikipedia those if you don't know what they are, they're a little more in depth than fake charities).

However, it is very important to know that agreeing to pay $100 for an Ork Stompa, sending out the money but either a. not getting a stompa in return, b. getting a very poorly painted stompa in return or c. getting a dreadnaught in return is NOT mail fraud.

I've known many-a-postal-employee's over the years and they say the same thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme for anyone who is curious

As for the mail fraud:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_fraud ---> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=mail%20fraud&url=/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_63.html

I'm think each option is mail fraud according to the US CODE.

From as they say, the horses mouth:

https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/

Another little helpful hint for using the Dakka Swap Shop -

Look at the frickin' Original Post Date. If it's over like 6 months old, chances are, the original poster has either forgotten about it, or otherwise.

If you're still curious about older Swap Shop posts, please consider the following -

1. Check the OP's user profile
If the OP had only a handful of posts, and he joined some time ago, he probably isn't active anymore on this site and contacting him is not likely to produce anything.

2. PM over threadcromancy
If the OP looks like he's still at least moderately active on Dakka (or if you feel lucky, you can try even the less active-looking members), send him a PM with a subject line about his swap-shop post asking him if he's still looking to sell his stuff. If the OP's swap is still "active", let him ressurrect the thread.

New tip:

NEVER send to a P.O. Box.

That in itself is somewhat suscipiscious.

References, reference, references. Always collect and ask for references. You can avoid most of the bad sellers by looking for the signs for good sellers.


If you keep trade references on Dakka with long term Dakkaites people will have more confidence in their trades with you. Likewise it is the first thing you should ask for. Only accept references from outside Dakka with gereat caution and try to double source them within Dakka.

Always keep a link to your own trade posts, no matter how old. Always include your trade PM's for good trades, keep photos of outgoing items from previous sales.

This evidence can be counterfeited but it would require a conspiracy to do so. Ultimately you have to do the legwork for your trade partner, not your own security, but if someone has traded before and can provide evidence they are a good seller it then becomes more acceptable for them to request 'ship first'.

RogueMarket wrote:New tip:

NEVER send to a P.O. Box.

That in itself is somewhat suscipiscious.

Only most of the time and the way around that is to use UPS. You see, I have a P.O. Box becuase that's the only way I can get mail. I live in such a rural area that the post office actually doesn't deliver to my house, they've decided it's cheaper to give me a free P.O. Box than to hire a letter carrier to deliver my mail (Yes, I don't even have rural delivery.)

Believe me, it plays hell with my mail. The post office will only deliver to a mail drop point. It may not even be a home like in my case. However, UPS always goes to the front door.

RogueMarket wrote:New tip:

NEVER send to a P.O. Box.

That in itself is somewhat suscipiscious.

As Volts mentioned, not everyone has the option of front door delivery. Trust me- I wish I did. But I live in a po-dunk town in the boonies. My packages are safer in the post office, and closer, than where I would be allowed to set a mail box along the 'approved' delivery route. UPS, and FedEx will drop it at my door, but the USPS is a box.

Yes, some scammers use box addresses. Those of us with box addresses are used to explaining this if needed, but dont assume someones perpetuating fraud just because they dont have access to 'traditional' mail service due to a different area than you are used to.

I agree with Mistress, some might need a PO box for good reason. Also remember PO boxes are not anonymous, sure you cant track who is there, but if you have fraud claim it can actually be tracked by authorities easier. Scammers prefer PO boxes because you cant identify culprits, if passed to authorities though it is easier to establish culpability though. Unlike domestic addresses PO boxes have a log of activity, so a scammer cannot easily lie and deny delivery or say someone else collected etc, the proof of delivery is right there in the Post Office system.

Pay by Paypal, Nochex, or equivalent, and never by direct money transfer, this plus a PO box is actually safer because there is an official corporate collection address and a paper trail for relevant authorities to look at.

Direct money transfer, and a domestic address is in fact the worst all round combo. Western Union is the true province of scammers.

2000 Volts wrote:MAIL FRAUD:

However, it is very important to know that agreeing to pay $100 for an Ork Stompa, sending out the money but either a. not getting a stompa in return, b. getting a very poorly painted stompa in return or c. getting a dreadnaught in return is NOT mail fraud.

Really?

wikipedia.org wrote:
Non-delivery or misrepresentation of mail-order merchandise

This scheme exists in various forms; order an item, make payment, receive nothing is the simplest form of mail fraud. Other variants include misleading descriptions (advertisement says an expensive camera is available by mail-order, when the item arrives it turns out to be a toy camera), deliberate sale of defective merchandise or even stolen merchandise. High-ticket items such as computer hardware are particularly tempting targets for scam artists.

That is a misleading description at best.

Since when was Wikipedia a reliable source of anything? Go to the USPS Postal Inspectors website, not Wikipedia where anyone can go and change whatever they want in unatributed paragraphs.

Well, it's far more reliable than your incorrect information...

usps.com wrote:
Merchandise or Service
- Failure to Pay
- Failure to Provide
- Misrepresentation of Product/Service

Go ahead, check the complaint form and tell me how the complaints above don't match with what I quoted from Wiki.

Go on...

Well, first off chill out. You're getting way too excited over something as trivial as the definition of something only a lawyer can give an opinion on.

2 things: My reply to you was not to use Wiki, use the USPS. I quoted USPS Postal Inspectors who define mail fraud as ponzi scemes, fake charities ect..

Having worked in the postal service as a letter carrier I can tell you this: Good luck getting the Postal Inspectors to go after someone who didn't mail you items you agreed to on an unofficial fan forum in an unofficial capacity. What you are describing are people repreesnting themselves as mail order companies. Guess what, none of us are mail order companies.

But there is light - It's still theft. Just not mail fraud since we are not Mail-order companies using the mail stream to commit fraud.

At any rate - believe what you will. If you think you can get the postal inspectors to go after some guy in east bumpkin Nebraska for not mailing you space marines to which you agreed to buy over an unofficial site for Warhammer 40K, more power to you.

My Advice? Call the police. It's still theft either way. At least the police can call police in East Bumpkin and they can approach the guy with the marines.

Dude, I'm completely chilled.

I just want to clarify that facts of what mail fraud actually is, at least, if you go back to what the USPS allows people to claim as mail fraud. And that second quote is taken directly from the USPS Mail Fraud claim form.

While Ponzi schemes are also included, basic failure to pay / deliver as agreed.

Now, whether a Postal Inspector does or doesn't go after someone doesn't somehow change the definition of Mail Fraud. Nowhere does the US Mail Fraud statue give an exception for non-corporate, individual fraudsters.

Nor does reality guarantee that the police will somehow do a better job than the Postal Inspectors.

But the simple verifiable fact of the matter is that failure to deliver / pay *is* Mail Fraud, and that you were 100% completely wrong.

Another quick tip:

If you're a brand new user, I highly suggest your first post NOT be in this section. It always seems a little questionable to see someone with less than 10 posts offering to trade/deal here. While most people here are probably legit, there is some amount of trust-worthiness (granted, not always) involved with someone who posts regularly.

This thread has been taken off of a sticky but is still easily accessible from the Dakka Swap Shop - Rules for Posting thread at the top of this forum.


Also, be sure to check out this thread on mail scams...


ATTN: New York - Scam Team duo - Hitting over 1,000$+