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If a vehicle has a heavy flamer mounted in its turret, does that mean the vehicle shoots itself with the flame template?

How does the Hellhound's flame weapon work?

I searched the forum and could only find something inconclusive to do with Land Speeders.

I think with the hellhound you have a range a swell so you put the template anywhere along it's range so you don't HAVE to shoot yourself, hope that helps with the hellhound at least

If you check in the rulebook, it says that vehicles fire weaponry from the tip of the muzzle.

However, that's irrelevant here - with a Hellhound, you have a 24 or 48" range (can't remember...) You can put that flame template ANYWHERE within that range and turn it in any direction; forward, backward, sideways...

You're representing that the Hellhound is spewing forth a wide spray of flame. You can put the template perpendicular to your tank 20" away. Its a beastly weapon!

My vehicle is going to have a heavy flamer rather than a Hellhound weapon, so I had better build the gun as long as possible. It will be OK except when shooting straight ahead.

A bizarre situation every Sisters player has conveniently ignored. The Immolator has always had this problem, with the design *always* having part of the template on itself, but it would be stupid if the vehicle had no choice but to damage itself. Just assume they used fire-retardant paint or something

Its no different from infantry firing a template weapon, after all the template is in contact with his own base as well.

Suggesting people kill themselves with their own flame weapons is pretty much in the "Just say no." sort of thinking.

Technically, it is a problem. Because putting the template on the gun muzzle, means that a section of the vehicle is under the template.

However, no one I have even heard of plays it that way. Put it on the muzzle, and don't worry about the vehicle.

Kilkrazy wrote:My vehicle is going to have a heavy flamer rather than a Hellhound weapon, so I had better build the gun as long as possible. It will be OK except when shooting straight ahead.

Careful on this one - the rules do say to fire from the muzzle of the weapon on the vehicle. However, if you make custom weapons to go on your vehicles and extend the muzzles additional range, someone is going to think you're trying to cheat and gain extra firing range. I'd keep it reasonable if I were you.

My take on this has always been this

Page 29 Template

"...Simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the model ..."

page 56 vehicles & measuring Distances
(short form so i don't type it all) base = hull
2nd para
"There is however a notable exception, a vehicle's weaponry. When firing a vehicle's weapon measure from the muzzle of the firing weapon, ..."

YMMV but i never messured range with a template. You just place it touching the base, I see it being the same with vehicals but they have a firing ark.

It actually makes specific mention in the rules that a template or blast cannot be placed in such a way to strike your own models.

Someone had the pages at one time that if you take a razorback and give it twinlinked flamers it will always strike itself and therefore cannot fire.

This problem comes up with Redeemers that have the flamers mounted on the back portion of the landraider.

its says you cant touch your own friendly units..doesn't say you cant touch yourself.

humms the songs.....I touch myseeeelllfff

I believe that the model itself is considered a friendly unit; GW does not want you touching yourself.

This is a great question...I have no idea. I've always seen it ignored and people just measure from the turret. I think this is the kind of problem I'll continue to ignore until I encounter a Sisters/Immolater spam list with Vulkan He'stan...then i'll scream bloody murder about how they can't shoot themselves.




(pre-flaming: I kid, I kid)

...Trying to resist obvious metaphors...

So does the argument stand that the 'base' equals the 'hull', thus giving it another 2" of range?

My favourite is flame retardant paint. I could see techpriests slathering on a gloss coat from a holy water chalice.

You actually have to ignore two rules ; 1. that template and blast weapons can't touch friendly models 2. that all models under a template are automatically hit.


I could see some pretty hilarious situations with a H. Flamer on a Razorback automatically hitting then glancings then destroying its own weapon.

There's actually a place in the book that says you cannot touch friendly models even if you want to?

its under the rules for using flamer & blast page 29 for template, & page 30 for blast

So never take the twin linked heavy flamer option for a razorback.

I think this is a case of clear RAI and how it should be played.

As someone mentioned above when using a Template Weapon you are always touching the base of the model using it per rules (non vehicle). So you are clearly not following the "cant touch a friendly model" stipulation. Moreover, no one is rolling to see if they wound themselves from the template touching themselves either.

Same goes with Immolators, Razorbacks and Units firing out of a Rhino's Fire Point.

Its one of those situations where there is a RAW argument for it, but RAI is pretty clear and how a vast majority of people play it.

I'm glad my armies don't have any template weapons so I don't have to deal with this whole thread. But it's been very interesting seeing the different points made on both sides.

i've been thinking about this too, as I've just converted up some skorcha tracks.
Another thing to note is that on my tracks the skorcha is on a post that can rotate so where do I place the flame template if I'm shooting to the side or behind the skorcha?

Oh yeah, and why isn't thins in the INAT FAQ?

So the sum total of this debate is that you can never, ever use Flamers, since there's always going to be a friendly model in contact with the template (ie the firing model) whenever you use it?

I think it's pretty safe to say that the template ignores the firing model. Anything else is pure ridiculousness.

One of the problems with 40K is that GW has always allowed common sense to fill in the blanks in their rules, while the average competitive gamer tends to throw common sense out the window by dissecting the meaning of each and every word in each and every sentence of the "rules as written" looking for some loop-hole to exploit. The issue with turret mounted flamers has a common sense solution of “doesn’t effect the firer” while the rules, as written, make no such declaration.

Those of us that have played Hellhounds and Immolators since 2nd Ed tend to use the common sense solution to this issue, while those that are picking apart the 5th Ed rule book tend to point out that us oldsters are in the wrong. They say, “show me a rule that says you can do that” or “show me a rule that says I can’t do that.”

I just point out the first rule in the book, on page 2: The Most Important Rule!

“The most important rule … is that the rules aren’t all that important! So long as both players agree, you can treat them as sacrosanct or mere guidelines – the choice is entirely yours.”

I choose to treat them as guidelines when the rules began to stop making sense, and switch to a common sense solution to resolve issues when they arise. Example: Turreted Flamers. No where in the current rule set does it state that the firer of a template that is placed touching the firer is affected by the template. In all examples of this action, the firer is immune to this type of attack. While never stated as such, it is heavily implied.

So, the common sense solution is to follow the rules as written by placing the tip of the template against the muzzle of the flamer and the body of the template over the most enemies as you can while avoiding friendly models. All //enemy// models under the template are hit automatically, just roll to wound. Since you cannot place the template over friend models yet have no choice but to place the tip in contact with the firer, the issue is non-issue as the firer is never affected. And that is it. No fuss, no muss.

SJ

bah, that's just too simple!

Jeffersonian000, I agree with you almost entirely, except the bit about the Most Important Rule. That is the single worst "rule" GW ever created, the Rule that Excuses Them All to their mind.

The template rules are poorly written? Hey, have fun!
No 3 people agree on what a Death Rolla does to tanks? It's only a game!

Cops and Robbers is a game by that standard. Pretend is a game as well. They certainly are not ones I would drop cash to play, however The reason being that two perfectly reasonable people can have perfectly different ideas of what constitutes reasonable in situations involving 8 foot tall fungus infused men and their genetically altered eunuch enemies.

Of course, I would be right there with you saying "Are you kidding? Ok... you win the game, good job! I am going home." if someone tried to say one couldn't fire a flamer because it touched the base, but I would curse GW for telling that person that was the case right beforehand.

Shenanigans I say! SHENANIGANS!

Wehrkind ... I'd like to reply to your post; however, I'm not even sure what you meant.

SJ

I'm still trying to figure it out too