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Let me start of with, yes, I know this is a touchy subject and that a lot of threads get locked for brining it up, but I see no reason why we can't have a civil discussion about it. I know that there a lot of people on Dakka who can have a civil discussion and I was kinda hoping we could have one about this topic too. Or maybe we can't discuss it, but some people just might want to say how they feel about it at least.
If the mods feel that this is going out of hand then feel free to lock it immedialty. I don't want to start a flame war, I just want to know what other people think about this.
So, here goes:
Spoiler:
To be honest, in the last few years I've come to have a real problem with organized Religions.
But I should probably start by saing that I was "raised" as a catholic. My Dad is a Catholic, his parents were catholic and so I became baptised catholic. I did most of the stuff kids of not-too religious parents do. I had my "Erstkommunion" (I have no idea what this is called in English, it's the first time where you get to eat the little cookies, oblat or something like that), I had a "Firmung" and my family went to church on Christmas Eve and sometimes on Eastersunday too. I had catholic religion as a class in elemantary school and in Gymnasium (kinda like high school I guess). In Elementary school I learned a lot about the basic Bible stuff. You know, God, Jesus, heaven, painting mandalas, that kind of stuff. And when I got older I learned basic things about other religions, thought the class was still called "catholic religion". And besides having class, there were a few things that kinda got me shifted away from all those bibilical teachings.
As weird as this sounds, the first thing that made me question what I was told over the years was actually Kevin Smith's "Dogma". When I saw it the first time, I must've been around 12 years old or something like that and all I thought about was: "Hell, what if there really is so much stuff about God and Jesus and Christianity that the Church just doesn't want us to know?"
It made sense to me at the time, especially after I learned about the so called "Evangelium of Thomas" which I hold a school report about (don't ask me how I found it though). The Evangelium of Thomas wasn't in the bible, because there were a lot of things about Jesus in it, the Vatican wasn't really that fond off. In particular stuff about him being really pissed off most of the time and talking about sword and war and stuff. This got me even closer to the whole "Why don't they want to us about this?" way of thinking.
And this kinda evolved over the years until I saw Dogma once more and it kinda hit me like a sledgehammer. At one point, the main character talks about how she lost faith in God when she lost her child. Which made way for my personal view on God:
If he's really out there and watching us, then he must be a real sadist.
I know there's a bunch of teachings about how everything will be fine once you reach paradise, but to be honest, I don't like the sound of it. I mean, sure, life's not that bad for folks like us, with a roof over their heads and a highspeed internet conection. But what about other places. Other times. Crusades, holy wars, holocausts, starvation, sickness.
At some point I just said stop. If there is someone up there watching this planet, then he either enjoys watching this or lost interest a long time.
So, that was my..well, rant, about Religion. Granted, it was mostly about Christianity, but I guess you know what meant. This just something I needed to say. I can't talk about it like that with my familiy and I don't need to talk about it my friends here.
So, what's your take on the subject. Are religious? Yes? No? Why? How?
"Erstkommunion" is called First Communion in English, which I think means exactly the same.
I think there is more importance paid to it by Roman Catholics, with special dresses for girls, and so on, however Church of England like me, also have to undergo religious education to be confirmed, which is the same thing.
When I was confirmed I felt a strong religious sensation, from the occasion which was in Westminster Abbey, a large ceremony with a bishop and so on and the relatives of all the confirmees. I don't know if it is the same for everyone.
After confirmation I attended communion for several years, until I went to university. However, my religion feeling faded over time, and at some point I stopped going to church except on a few special occasions such as weddings, funerals and sometimes Christmas or Easter.
The last time I went to church, which was for Easter, I refused the communion as I did not feel religious and did not want to insult the ceremony for the truly faithful. So I accepted a blessing instead.
My religious feeling faded because I saw no evidence that God exists and made the universe, also I objected to various aspects of the church's teachings about sin. However it has never entirely disappeared. I have at times prayed in churches of various sects (CoE, Protestant, RC and Russian Orthodox) and also prayed in Shinto shrines and buddhist temples.
What I believe about religion is that it is a product of the structures of the brain which create imagination and intelligence. Religious feelings are therefore present in everyone to some degree or less.
Clearly there are many problems with organised religion, and things like the explanations of the creation of the universe are obviously made up to fill a void in knowledge.
Most major religions have a core of teaching about right action towards other people and the world -- basically being nice. This is a good thing.
It's not unique to religion since philosophy can also teach the same message. Organised religion seems to become a problem when it is used as a power structure to enforce some other kinds of behaviour, usually for the benefit a power elite.
I have to say that for the most part I agree with Anung Un Rama,I to was raised Catholic and started to question things at an early age,I also came to the conclusion that god must be either sasdistic or uncarring(if he/she/it exist),I don't base this opinion on a "gee look at all the suffering in the world"posistion,as with or without a god mankind can create suffering on their own,rather I base it upon dogma I grew up listening toin church,for example the premise that god is omnipotent,omnipresent and all powerful,therfore the creator knows the inevatable outcome of all his creations,so I wonder...why create a living being if ultimitly that soul will be damned to hell to suffer for eternity,now some will say "ah but you have free will and can change and repent."..However,would not god already know who would and would not repent,I mean is it likely you can "suprise" god..therfore he would already know witch of his creations was "doomed" yet create them nontheless,seems a bit sadistic to me.
Now,I don't want to go off on a total anti-religion rant,I do know a few people that pulled themself out of some bad spots (Drugs & such) because they "found god",however i think the same results could have been acchived had they just taken some resposibilty for their actions in the first place....ok rant off.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
For a Religion supposedly based on peace, love and understanding, it's awfully violent when trying to persuade the locals to convert.
To me, Religion as an institution is the greatest evil man faces. Essentially, imho, it's an outdated method of controlling a population, so caught up in dogma and tradition that it still tries to terrify the uneducated into obedience.
Now, Faith, faith is personal, and I have no problem with. But Religion seriously needs to just die off. It no longer serves any purpose beyond lining the top fews pockets.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:For a Religion supposedly based on peace, love and understanding, it's awfully violent when trying to persuade the locals to convert.
To me, Religion as an institution is the greatest evil man faces. Essentially, imho, it's an outdated method of controlling a population, so caught up in dogma and tradition that it still tries to terrify the uneducated into obedience.
Now, Faith, faith is personal, and I have no problem with. But Religion seriously needs to just die off. It no longer serves any purpose beyond lining the top fews pockets.
That really depends on the religion. The whole obsession with terror vis a vis the unknown is really only prevalent in Western Christianity. Particularly in the Americas.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Your Faith should guide you through life, helping to inform your decisions. It shouldn't restrict your options.
Says who? It's your own personal Jesus and all that, but you are throwing out a statement as if it were automatically expected to be accepted as true without any kind of support or back-up. Because you think so isn't really good enough. As complicated as religion and faith are I'm not sure you get to tell other people what they should believe just because that is what you believe just because you believe it. It is akin to saying something is a 'right' and hoping that is good enough w/o having to explain where or why that thing is a 'right'. Of course that isn't even looking at the possible contradictions. What if by helping to inform choices it restricts options?
As for the rest of the posts. Now I don't mean this in a bad way at all so don't take it that way unless that is your inclination to take everything that way. Nobody here has said anything close to original or new. Every single post has been said a hundred times before by others, many going back a long time. You aren't alone in feeling that way; you aren't even the first to post something similar on the internet. You'll probably laugh to yourself in 10 years when you see someone else say the same thing and realize how ingrained and cyclical these ideas really are.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Everything posted on the internet doesn't have to be original. The OP was looking for support and thoughts from other users. It's inevitable a lot of us will say things which have been said before. That doesn't invalidate them.
Kilkrazy wrote:Everything posted on the internet doesn't have to be original. The OP was looking for support and thoughts from other users. It's inevitable a lot of us will say things which have been said before. That doesn't invalidate them.
Please point to where I say it invalidates them. What is that? Oh you can't because I didn't. Please read what is actually written, not what you think is written. For people coming to these conclusions often they feel alone and I am simply pointing out to them that they are not.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
I used to go to church a lot, episcopalian. I think it's close to the same as the Church of England but we had to spin off during the American revolution.
I used to go to church all the time. I never go anymore. I'm not really sure why. I suppose my need for my faith to fulfill things in my life became minimal. My understanding of a being like God, all powerful in every aspect is harder to sway now. I just always found myself asking questions no one could give a real answer for. If God is a being so understanding, why does he judge? I eventually came to a conclusion on the matter for myself and it didn't involve worship or prayer anymore, just trying to live and be nice to other people.
I think that's where a lot of religions go wrong and end up getting people killed or injured. They always have someone saying "Just be nice to everybody, that's all. You don't like have to do everything for them, just be nice." then eventually someone else comes along and excludes some people then that keeps happening for awhile. Until you have a lot of dogma and hate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/15 20:55:35
Once upon a time, I told myself it's better to be smart than lucky. Every day, the world proves me wrong a little more.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Your Faith should guide you through life, helping to inform your decisions. It shouldn't restrict your options.
Says who? It's your own personal Jesus and all that, but you are throwing out a statement as if it were automatically expected to be accepted as true without any kind of support or back-up. Because you think so isn't really good enough. As complicated as religion and faith are I'm not sure you get to tell other people what they should believe just because that is what you believe just because you believe it. It is akin to saying something is a 'right' and hoping that is good enough w/o having to explain where or why that thing is a 'right'. Of course that isn't even looking at the possible contradictions. What if by helping to inform choices it restricts options?
As for the rest of the posts. Now I don't mean this in a bad way at all so don't take it that way unless that is your inclination to take everything that way. Nobody here has said anything close to original or new. Every single post has been said a hundred times before by others, many going back a long time. You aren't alone in feeling that way; you aren't even the first to post something similar on the internet. You'll probably laugh to yourself in 10 years when you see someone else say the same thing and realize how ingrained and cyclical these ideas really are.
Amazingly the majority of the statements in your first paragraph describe organized religion to a T,as in general many if not all church dogma are geared specificly to tell people what they should belive and,as history shows those who disagree with the church often found themself in..well a fairly bad state.
Also,whether anyone has posted anything original or new,or if every single post has been said before does not debunk the statements made in them.
Incidently,I have no problem with someones "faith" or personal view...if a person chooses to worship a 10 foot plastic chicken then that,by all means,is their affair..I would only have a problem if said person told me if I did'nt fall in line and pray to their chicken I was going to fry for all eternity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/03/15 21:11:43
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
Main reason I'm not religious? Something my Grans Priest told her before she married my Grandad.
Apparently, because he was not just Protestant, but born out of wedlock, if she married him, not only would she go to hell, but so would her children, her grandchildren, and so on.
That is a disgusting way to treat another human being, and further illustrates my point that organised Religion is the very embodiment of evil. I mean, it's just such a pointless threat. Why would marrying someone not of your own exact denomination be so bad?
Hence my view the Church, and not just limited to Christianity, is merely a refuge for bigoted bullies.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
So basically, you're basing your view on religion on one bad experience with a priest from one particular denomination, who clearly has some pretty extremist views that are probably not held by most Christians. Or is it something else?
I believe I'll know the answers to the questions of religion someday one way or the other. Until then I can't be certain and can only wonder. Welcome to agnosticism. Some things are just unknowable.
As for organized religion I believe that the concepts of organization of belief run counter to the concepts of belief. Structuring something that can't be fundamentally held, controlled, measured, or truly understood is dangerous and often times counter productive. It gives the churches of the world the means to do many great things but at the same time it gives them the ability to fall away from their message and get involved politically in a way that benefits no one.
That is a disgusting way to treat another human being, and further illustrates my point that organised Religion is the very embodiment of evil. I mean, it's just such a pointless threat.
Yes, because all religions are hardcore protestant. Good job.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/03/15 21:32:02
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
There's also something else I'm wondering, this is directed at everyone.
If you don't believe that hell exists, why is it so offensive to you to be told that you're going to hell, or to hear that someone believes you are going to hell?
I even hear this sort of thing from people who say, "Well, I don't personally believe in any higher power, but I think it's okay for someone to have a religious or spiritual belief." Then as soon as someone else believes that a person like this is going to hell for not holding a belief, all of a sudden there's a problem, and people seem to be grossly offended by things they don't even believe exist.
If you don't believe that hell exists, why is it so offensive to you to be told that you're going to hell, or to hear that someone believes you are going to hell?
Because it means that a person fundamentally disapproves of a dynamic of your lifestyle to the point that they believe that you should or will be punished for it. Thats offensive to people that believe otherwise.
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Hordini wrote:There's also something else I'm wondering, this is directed at everyone.
If you don't believe that hell exists, why is it so offensive to you to be told that you're going to hell, or to hear that someone believes you are going to hell?
I even hear this sort of thing from people who say, "Well, I don't personally believe in any higher power, but I think it's okay for someone to have a religious or spiritual belief." Then as soon as someone else believes that a person like this is going to hell for not holding a belief, all of a sudden there's a problem, and people seem to be grossly offended by things they don't even believe exist.
Good point. I never got that either.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
FITZZ wrote: Also,whether anyone has posted anything original or new,or if every single post has been said before does not debunk the statements made in them.
This really isn't that hard people and I'll state it again. I never 'debunked' anyone. If you read it it doesn't invalidate anything they said or say that it invalidates what they said, only that it has been said before. Letting people who are wrestling with complicated ideas and concepts know they are not alone is usually not considered an insult. I see what everyone is reading into what I said, but try just reading what I said.
Hordini wrote:There's also something else I'm wondering, this is directed at everyone.
If you don't believe that hell exists, why is it so offensive to you to be told that you're going to hell, or to hear that someone believes you are going to hell?
I even hear this sort of thing from people who say, "Well, I don't personally believe in any higher power, but I think it's okay for someone to have a religious or spiritual belief." Then as soon as someone else believes that a person like this is going to hell for not holding a belief, all of a sudden there's a problem, and people seem to be grossly offended by things they don't even believe exist.
Like talking to a puppy, it's not what you say but how you say it. They aren't upset at the idea that they may being going to hell, they get angry because it is an insult. If someone tells you to go to hell they aren't being very friendly usually.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Hordini wrote:There's also something else I'm wondering, this is directed at everyone.
If you don't believe that hell exists, why is it so offensive to you to be told that you're going to hell, or to hear that someone believes you are going to hell?
I even hear this sort of thing from people who say, "Well, I don't personally believe in any higher power, but I think it's okay for someone to have a religious or spiritual belief." Then as soon as someone else believes that a person like this is going to hell for not holding a belief, all of a sudden there's a problem, and people seem to be grossly offended by things they don't even believe exist.
I see what you meen,personaly I don't much care if I am told I'm going to hell by someone,other than the annoyance factor involved. What bothers me most about the whole "hell" concept is it seems only to exist to scare people into obiedence or at the very least bilk them out of money.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
Hordini wrote:
If you don't believe that hell exists, why is it so offensive to you to be told that you're going to hell, or to hear that someone believes you are going to hell?
It really isn't offensive to me. In my view hell doesn't exist neither does heaven. I still say stuff like "Oh man I'm terrible, totally going to hell". My friends say things like that too.
Once upon a time, I told myself it's better to be smart than lucky. Every day, the world proves me wrong a little more.
Telling someone to go to hell, and saying you believe a person with a certain type of lifestyle or whatever else is going to hell are not the same thing.
I'm not saying it couldn't also be offensive, but it is not the same thing.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
I can't follow religion for one simple reason, what prove is there that god exists? For me if it can't be proved it dosen't exist, so until god is proved to be real, I will never follow any religion.
Illeix wrote:The Eldar get no attention because the average male does not like confetti blasters, shimmer sheilds or sparkle lasers.
FITZZ wrote: Like I said it's the concept of "hell" being used as a scare tactic I find most offensive...not being told I am going there
That also gets me riled up. The concept someone is tainted from birth, committing no evil action and NEEDS a church to save them doesn't flow well with me either.
Once upon a time, I told myself it's better to be smart than lucky. Every day, the world proves me wrong a little more.
Basicly look at it from this point of view,If I were to have dominion over a area of land,and on this area I had under my sway 20,000 children and I tought them that there was a wonderful place that when they die they go to,but to get there they had to pray to the 10 foot plastic chicken,give money to the 10 foot plastic chicken,obey the comandments of the 10 foot plastic chicken,only marry other plastic chicken worshipers and should they deviate from this behavior they would,upon death be taken to a dark place and beaten in the head with socks full of wet hampsters,most people would think I was insane.
But,come back to that land in 500 years and you will have millions of devote plastic chickenist,ready to defend to the death the almighty foul and living in fear of the hampster wooping.
To me this sums up orginized religion.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
Eh, I'm catholic, and no, I'm not going to spam "blah blah blah you don't believe blah blah blah".
Yes, cruel things happen in the world. (i.e. terrorism, genocide etc.) but did God himself commit these crimes? no. People did.
I believe that God gave us the right of choice. So what if you don't believe the exact same thing I do? Does that give me the right to "condemn" you to "hell"? No it doesn't.
Mad Doc, I sympathize with you. There are a good many people around the world who want to go around and judge every single non-believer. But please, not every single religious person is like that. I certainly wouldn't say that, seeing as my friend(s) are Atheist.
In essence, I believe that religion is just another thing that people have to overlook. It's important, and quite touchy, but I mean, come on people. "hell" is no scare tactic, unless wielded by a religious fanatic/devotee.
hopefully, we can discuss this in a civil manner. Flamefests are never fun.
Some people play to win, some people play for fun. Me? I play to kill toy soldiers.
DR:90S++GMB++IPwh40k206#+D++A++/hWD350R+++T(S)DM+
I keep hearing people talk about religion, but it seems we are really talking about western religious traditions, might even skew that to modern western religious traditions. Many of the complaints aren't very applicable to Indigenous or Eastern religious traditions. Criticisms can be leveled at those as well, but they are different criticism.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
Ahtman wrote:I keep hearing people talk about religion, but it seems we are really talking about western religious traditions, might even skew that to modern western religious traditions. Many of the complaints aren't very applicable to Indigenous or Eastern religious traditions. Criticisms can be leveled at those as well, but they are different criticism.
Pretty much.
Not too surprising though. Indigenous and Eastern religious traditions just aren't as relevant to the interests of most of the people on this board.
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
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