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Ogryns
Bone'ead +2 Ogryns 130pts. Up to 4 more for +40pts each. Stubborn, Furious Charge, Bulky (2 transport spaces) No wargear options. Can take orders.
Bone head 4 3 5 5 3 2 4 7 5+
Ogryn 4 3 5 5 3 2 3 6 5+
Ripper gun 12 5 - Assault 3

55pt Chimera's

Seems to me that this unit can be useful in a Mech Guard list...I might be crazy, but everyone over at Warseer is bashing them as TOTALLY useless. I'm not certain that they're taking the whole of 5e into account.

Assuming a Chimera rush, if you get one loaded with 6 ogryns in range...

-They will decimate an ork mob with very little retalitory wounds.
-Other guard units whether "mobbed up" or Multi-charged will simply get waxed, FnP from medic negated by the "Furious" Charge.
-Eldar/Tau dont really have any "Troopers" that can stand up to them in CC either while other armies wont be able to ignore them.
-Tank(s) (squadrons) will get ripped apart with the ogryns teeth.
-MC's even have to sit up and take notice, ESPECIALLY if the "Bring it down" order applies to HtH attacks.

They're expensive compared to the rest of the 'dex, but I really think that they might find a VERY happy home in some Mech armies. They really plug a hole that basic guardmen cannot. I dont think they're particularly useful in what will wind up being the optimum footslogging build, but Mech....I think they deserve a little bit of attention.

Huh? Where'd you get them points and rules (that look suspiciously like Games Workshop Intellectual Property )

How about 5 Ogryns and 2 special characters/advisors in the chimera?

Gwar! wrote:Huh? Where'd you get them points and rules (that look suspiciously like Games Workshop Intellectual Property )

On unreleased product? How do we know I didnt just make it all up?

Gwar!

The stats listed are what is rumored to be the case, but nothing is officially out yet. Assuming it's true:

I think the single best thing that has happened to Ogryns is the T5. Now, only S10 weapons can instakill them.

I'd feel a lot better about them if they had any sort of power weapons or other ability to ignore armor saves. The S5 is good, but not all that terribly effective against SM or CSM regular troops. Assuming 6 Ogryns on the charge, they will kill 4 MeQs, and the unit costs 290 points, plus the Chimaera.

The Ogryns are pretty good against non-MeQ's, but of questionable effectiveness against MeQ's. I think the big beef against them is the cost relative to the cost of other, competing choices from their slot in the FOC.

They'd be awesome as is with a power weapon on the Bone 'Ead, I think.

Saldiven wrote:

I'd feel a lot better about them if they had any sort of power weapons or other ability to ignore armor saves. The S5 is good, but not all that terribly effective against SM or CSM regular troops. Assuming 6 Ogryns on the charge, they will kill 4 MeQs, and the unit costs 290 points, plus the Chimaera.

290 pts is a full squad of 7. 250 for a squad of 6 total. (5+bonehead).

Still, I don't think they stink on ice or anything; I just think that they're competing for more cost-effective units in the same slot.

Unfortunately, some people feel that nothing but the most cost-effective units are worth taking. I'm not sure I agree, unless the cost-effectiveness is way out of line (sort of like DE scourges).

Deadshane1 wrote:Ogryns
Bone'ead +2 Ogryns 130pts. Up to 4 more for +40pts each. Stubborn, Furious Charge, Bulky (2 transport spaces) No wargear options. Can take orders.
Bone head 4 3 5 5 3 2 4 7 5+
Ogryn 4 3 5 5 3 2 3 6 5+
Ripper gun 12 5 - Assault 3

55pt Chimera's

Seems to me that this unit can be useful in a Mech Guard list...I might be crazy, but everyone over at Warseer is bashing them as TOTALLY useless. I'm not certain that they're taking the whole of 5e into account.

Assuming a Chimera rush, if you get one loaded with 6 ogryns in range...

-They will decimate an ork mob with very little retalitory wounds.
-Other guard units whether "mobbed up" or Multi-charged will simply get waxed, FnP from medic negated by the "Furious" Charge.
-Eldar/Tau dont really have any "Troopers" that can stand up to them in CC either while other armies wont be able to ignore them.
-Tank(s) (squadrons) will get ripped apart with the ogryns teeth.
-MC's even have to sit up and take notice, ESPECIALLY if the "Bring it down" order applies to HtH attacks.

They're expensive compared to the rest of the 'dex, but I really think that they might find a VERY happy home in some Mech armies. They really plug a hole that basic guardmen cannot. I dont think they're particularly useful in what will wind up being the optimum footslogging build, but Mech....I think they deserve a little bit of attention.

They don't fill a useful role. IG don't have a huge problem with other armies' line troops, and especially not with units that are easier to kill than MEQs. What the IG needs, in a counter-assault role, is something that can pounce on the most troublesome assault unit that makes it to the lines (or just appears there, like Ironclads or daemons), and take that unit out. It doesn't matter if the counter-assault unit survives the experience in any meaningful way (this is why the old Rough Riders were useful) - the problem just needs to go away.

There are two possible "problem" units to deal with:
1) Hordes of individually easy-to-kill models (gaunts, genestealers, orks boyz). These can generally be addressed through sufficient firepower - it's very rare that the Guard will want to start a sustatined HtH in the middle of their lines.
2) "Elite" assault units (Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Assault Marines, Monstrous Creatures). These either require specialized firepower, or the application of a armor-negating counterassault unit.

Ogryn are really only useful against #1, or wounded MCs with bad armor saves (but without S10/Implant Attack). And even against #1, those hordes may well survive the charge, meaning you've got a messy LoS-impairing situation going on.

In the current codex, my "counter-assault" consisted of:
-the Russ Demolisher; and/or
-CHQ/PHQ squads toting flamers or meltaguns.

Given the rumored stats for Ogryns, and the damage done to Rough Riders, I'm going to invest in a squad of Grey Knight Terminators. Similar points to the Ogryn, just as easy to transport in a Chimera, but far more effective against elite assault units.


Strangely, the best role I see for Ogryn is as an actual assault unit. If you can get them downfield, with a PHQ accompanying them (in a separate chimera), they are sturdy enough to threaten/take away other army's "safe" objectives, or to seriously threaten an enemy firebase. For example, they can beat up Lootas fairly well, or wipe a squad of boyz/grotz left behind in a "Take and Hold" mission. It's a role their durability is well-suited for, and wiping them out will require your enemy to divert a decent assault unit of his own to the backfield.

Nope, they stink on ice. Here is why:

Can they kill things that will be taken out by massed lasguns??: Yes

Can they kill things that will be taken out by battlecanons?: Yes

Can they kill things that will not be taken out by massed lasguns or battlecanons?: No

I have a bunch of lasguns and battle canons.... Why do I need these guys again?

Can they infiltrate/scout outflank? Maybe with the right commander.

foil7102 wrote:Nope, they stink on ice. Here is why:

Can they kill things that will be taken out by massed lasguns??: Yes

Can they kill things that will be taken out by battlecanons?: Yes

Can they kill things that will not be taken out by massed lasguns or battlecanons?: No

I have a bunch of lasguns and battle canons.... Why do I need these guys again?

Succinctly put.

They have the statline of a Warboss, what's not to like?

Oh, no Power klaws.

Sounds like fun to stick your new Commissar Lord in a unit of Ogryns though

I can't help but feel that people aren't noticing their firepower. 6 Ogryns firing ripper guns before the charge is closer to 6 dead marines.

willydstyle wrote:I can't help but feel that people aren't noticing their firepower. 6 Ogryns firing ripper guns before the charge is closer to 6 dead marines.

Not the point. Guard don't need Ogryn as a firepower unit. Generally speaking, Guard don't need versatile units at all - it's the ultimate specialist army, because everything is supposed to be so cheap that you just buy as many units to fill a certain role as you feel is appropriate for your list.

Further reflection is only reinforcing my thoughts from above: Ogryn are an assault unit, intended to operate essentially solo in the enemy backfield. And no doubt you could surprise the hell out of an opponent by running an assault Guard army* built around 2 or 3 units of 5, with attached ICs, in Chimerae. But that's a far cry from the role everyone expected them to fill, i.e., counter-assault.



*Something like this would be an amusing army to play around with, but not very successful.

Yarrick
Grey Knight GM

5x Ogryn in a Chimera w/extra armor
5x Ogryn in a Chimera

Platoon w/2 squads
Platoon w/2 squads

Grey Knight LRC (for the GM & his Ogryn buddies)

By my approximation, that should run ~1450 pts, depending on the cost of Yarrick & what weapons you give the platoons. In a 1750 game, that leaves room for a couple Russes, or some artillery & more mobile units (Inquisitorial STs, maybe?).

Here's the major problem I see with these guys....they're an assault-ish unit without mobility. Rough riders worked well because they were very effective on the charge and could cover a lot of ground quickly. These orgyns driving around in a chimera can't get out and charge after it moves, setting them up for a round of shooting. Their furious charge only works if they charge, and without a fast transport or fleet, I don't see these guy getting the jump on anything the opponent is willing to let them charge.

Also, while decent in melee, it seems like they wouldn't do well against most dedicated melee units, which WOULD have mobility to respond and power weapons to ignore any FNP-type boosts.

As for the ripper-gun, that may end up being a problem when facing marines. If a bunch of ogryns killed half a squad of my marines with shooting, I'd use combat tactics to fall back before they assault and shoot/charge them on my turn.

Grimaldi wrote:

As for the ripper-gun, that may end up being a problem when facing marines. If a bunch of ogryns killed half a squad of my marines with shooting, I'd use combat tactics to fall back before they assault and shoot/charge them on my turn.

There's Marine players who still have Combat Tactics? I thought all marine lists had Vulkan, Shriek, Pedro or Lysander?


Ogryns are suppose to be Guards "roadblock", after an attacker hits one of your line squads, the Ogyrns charge in and keep that nasty CC unit in combat for a while. They are meant to stop that aforementioned CC monster unit from ripping a squad up every turn (or multiple). The question is, would you be better off just letting them kill a 60pt infantry squad every turn?

Ogryns are not cheap, you could buy a lot of lasguns for their points. Lasguns would probably serve you better in more situations, but we'll see how it all plays out.



As for Rough Riders, is the rumor that they took the Krak Grenades off their Lances and put them in their pockets (gain Krak Grenades, but Lances no longer ignore armor), then really IG has no effective "killy CC" unit. Perhaps that's ok, after all, we're IG, we shoot stuff.

Actually, I think my "CC" is going to be when Creed gives 4 units Furious Charge and Fearless. Imagine a few merged Platoons of 100+ (or hell a few Conscripts squads!) men storming a postion with Furious Charge (and their new shiny frag grenades), makes me actually smile. Granted, I would probably be better off using those 4 orders to give all those squads an extra lasgun shot, but hey, sometimes you just need to take that hill.

I think a unit of ogryns is auto include in all mech IG armies. The 3 wounds T5 means no fists will be wrecking them. They will beat MEQs just not termies.

Janthkin wrote:

willydstyle wrote:I can't help but feel that people aren't noticing their firepower. 6 Ogryns firing ripper guns before the charge is closer to 6 dead marines.

Not the point. Guard don't need Ogryn as a firepower unit. Generally speaking, Guard don't need versatile units at all - it's the ultimate specialist army, because everything is supposed to be so cheap that you just buy as many units to fill a certain role as you feel is appropriate for your list.

Further reflection is only reinforcing my thoughts from above: Ogryn are an assault unit, intended to operate essentially solo in the enemy backfield. And no doubt you could surprise the hell out of an opponent by running an assault Guard army* built around 2 or 3 units of 5, with attached ICs, in Chimerae. But that's a far cry from the role everyone expected them to fill, i.e., counter-assault.



*Something like this would be an amusing army to play around with, but not very successful.

Yarrick
Grey Knight GM

5x Ogryn in a Chimera w/extra armor
5x Ogryn in a Chimera

Platoon w/2 squads
Platoon w/2 squads

Grey Knight LRC (for the GM & his Ogryn buddies)

By my approximation, that should run ~1450 pts, depending on the cost of Yarrick & what weapons you give the platoons. In a 1750 game, that leaves room for a couple Russes, or some artillery & more mobile units (Inquisitorial STs, maybe?).

Thing is, why take Ogryns when you can take GK termies for only 6 points more each, and they can do more damage? Sure, they only have one wound, but a 2+ makes them more durable against everything that won't instantly kill them anyway. AND you get wargear options. Also, you can't take a GK LR if you use them as allies. You're not allowed to use allied heavy support choices, and GKs don't actually get any dedicated transports, and thanks to the age of the codex, you can't share dedicated transports either.

Fafnir wrote:
Sure, they only have one wound, but a 2+ makes them more durable against everything that won't instantly kill them anyway.

I would challenge that.

Ogryns may not have a 2+ save, but T5 and W3 make ogryns more durable than GKT's against a multitude of different opponents. Like MC's, anything with str based power weapons, ect....

Their low initiative can be a problem if you're not the one charging though, and the lack of power weaponry really hurts them.

They're better against different things through raw survivability, but I'd take the GKTs every time. They can just do much more damage, thanks to their power weaponry.

Units with good invulnerable saves are becoming a routine enough part of the metagame that power weapons don't actually add that much to a unit's killing power, except against things like tactical squads, which aren't that hard to kill in the first place.

Actually, I think my "CC" is going to be when Creed gives 4 units Furious Charge and Fearless. Imagine a few merged Platoons of 100+ (or hell a few Conscripts squads!) men storming a postion with Furious Charge (and their new shiny frag grenades), makes me actually smile. Granted, I would probably be better off using those 4 orders to give all those squads an extra lasgun shot, but hey, sometimes you just need to take that hill.

LOL! The image that conjured is just beautifull! I can only imagine the face of an opponent faced with that wall of bayonets. Imperial Guard making a mass charge! But seriously, have to keep that idea in mind and actually consider getting Creed to my collection.

Fafnir wrote:

Janthkin wrote:
*Something like this would be an amusing army to play around with, but not very successful.

Yarrick
Grey Knight GM

5x Ogryn in a Chimera w/extra armor
5x Ogryn in a Chimera

Platoon w/2 squads
Platoon w/2 squads

Grey Knight LRC (for the GM & his Ogryn buddies)

By my approximation, that should run ~1450 pts, depending on the cost of Yarrick & what weapons you give the platoons. In a 1750 game, that leaves room for a couple Russes, or some artillery & more mobile units (Inquisitorial STs, maybe?).

Thing is, why take Ogryns when you can take GK termies for only 6 points more each, and they can do more damage? Sure, they only have one wound, but a 2+ makes them more durable against everything that won't instantly kill them anyway. AND you get wargear options. Also, you can't take a GK LR if you use them as allies. You're not allowed to use allied heavy support choices, and GKs don't actually get any dedicated transports, and thanks to the age of the codex, you can't share dedicated transports either.

Good catch on the GK Land Raider - shows how often I bring out the allies!

Yes, GKTs are a much better counter-assault option. But I like Ogryn more for the "durable assault" role - plama guns are unpleasant for the GKTs, where the Ogryn will barely notice. Honestly, most people with anything like a significant firebase have contingencies in place for Terminators, but Ogryn might throw them for a loop.

Again, I'm not endorsing the Ogryn for any viable or competitive purposes - it just seems like an IG Ogre Kingdoms assault army might be kind of amusing. They are useless for counter-assault.

BoxANT wrote:There's Marine players who still have Combat Tactics?

Yes, they're called Ultramarines players.

I like Ogryn's for what they can do vs. Daemons. Guard won't ahve the ability to freely shoot down daemons for a few turns before they are all in the lines. Lasguns and Battlecannons won't do much against Bloodcrushers and fateweaver. I think Ogryns have the ability to slow up Daemon assaults and even win a few against the daemon troops. Ogryn's are also better against Plaguebearers and plaguemarines than lasguns and battlecannons.

They are expensive and possibly will only be good in a Mech List. When you can't shoot the enemy out of cover go assault them with the Ogryn's.

As I posted in a different thread, I'll be using these guys over a large squad of mooks for tieing up assaulters due to their smaller footprint on the map. 40-50 guardsmen in an amoeba squad is alot bigger than 5 ogryn and a commissar. This is important to the mobility of a mechanized force. I also prefer them to terminators for the mere fact, that was already pointed out but bears repeating, they are immune to power weapons instantly killing them. Examples: a squad of nobz will kill all the terminators, marine with power weapon will kill 2 per turn fairly easily, bloodletters, MC's, much more. I think people are really forgetting how ready every tournament viable list is deal with a 2+ save.


EDIT: These guys are also alot of fun top paint and make a good showpiece for your army that shows the variety of the guard. Guard is about variety or at least it s untill may 2nd when I can no longer field feral, dual CC wielding, chem-inhaling, prisoners who drop from airplanes onto the battlefield if... If I'm feeling lucky.

DarthDiggler wrote:I like Ogryn's for what they can do vs. Daemons. Guard won't ahve the ability to freely shoot down daemons for a few turns before they are all in the lines. Lasguns and Battlecannons won't do much against Bloodcrushers and fateweaver. I think Ogryns have the ability to slow up Daemon assaults and even win a few against the daemon troops. Ogryn's are also better against Plaguebearers and plaguemarines than lasguns and battlecannons.

They are expensive and possibly will only be good in a Mech List. When you can't shoot the enemy out of cover go assault them with the Ogryn's.

The new Psyker squad is going to bend Fateweaver over and show the why IG is called the hammer of the Emperor.

Drop the Fateweaver's Ld to 2, then unleash some multilaser/autocannon fire into him, and he'll be out of there in the first turn.


Ogryns are tough, and might be able to actually take a charge from a unit of BloodCrushers, but personally, I think we are better off moving a squad up in front of the BC and forcing them to charge it. Then shoot them up.
Once Fateweaver is removed, BC become much easier to take out with massed fire. Yes they're a hard nut (especially when your opponent runs two big squads of them & FW), but again, the Psyker squad is going to help a lot.

foil7102 wrote:
I have a bunch of lasguns and battle canons.... Why do I need these guys again?

Because winning CC is greatly pleasing, especially for Guard players?

Janthkin wrote:
Not the point. Guard don't need Ogryn as a firepower unit.

Not the point either. The point is that if one analyses them, one must take the Ripper Guns into account. That doesn't mean they're being bought for this ability.

BoxANT wrote:
Ogryns are not cheap, you could buy a lot of lasguns for their points. Lasguns would probably serve you better in more situations, but we'll see how it all plays out.
[/quore]

Sure you could buy a couple of squads but that also means another couple of KP's. While I am aware that we will be able to merge squads, it won't be always feasible to merge everything and the kitchen sink just because.

Fafnir wrote:
Thing is, why take Ogryns when you can take GK termies for only 6 points more each, and they can do more damage?

Because they're not in my codex?!? I know, far-fetched but hey, I am playing IG.

BoxANT wrote:
The new Psyker squad is going to bend Fateweaver over and show the why IG is called the hammer of the Emperor.

Drop the Fateweaver's Ld to 2, then unleash some multilaser/autocannon fire into him, and he'll be out of there in the first turn.

That IS an amusing idea, and definitively one I will implement sooner or later but of course those Psykers are extremely fragile, even when behind a couple of inches of steel.

How many different options, can you give to the squad? Obviously one can be the team leader - bone 'ead type, right? Any other weapons or gun upgrades? Whats the min-max unit size?

except these guys will not be winning CC against anything that would worry me. Basically, if a unit can survive two guard squads charging them, then they would not be phased by the ogryns either. As has been pointed out, these guys are just a road block. They are included in an army to die. Even if it is to die slowly holding up a monster assault squad, they are still basically suicide units. They cost to much for this role.