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I noticed that the wargear for a Big Mek is a shoota or slugga and a choppa...

You can replace the choppa with a Burna...

so can you have a shoota and a Burna, and use the shoota during the shooting phase and keep the Burna a PW during the Assault phase...also is a Burna a one handed or two handed weapon?

If the Burna is some how a one handed weapon, can you have an extra PW attack or does the Burna function like a PK and thus would require two to gain an extra attack...

QuietOrkmi wrote:I noticed that the wargear for a Big Mek is a shoota or slugga and a choppa...

Indeed.

You can replace the choppa with a Burna...

Correct

so can you have a shoota and a Burna, and use the shoota during the shooting phase and keep the Burna a PW during the Assault phase

Yes

...also is a Burna a one handed or two handed weapon?

No Longer relevent . 5th edition has no Such things as "One handed Weapons" or "Two handed Weapons" A burna is simply a Power Weapons (when used as such).

If the Burna is some how a one handed weapon, can you have an extra PW attack or does the Burna function like a PK and thus would require two to gain an extra attack...

A Burna is treated as a Power Weapon in assault (so long as you didn't fire it) and doesn't any clause restricting its bonus attack status, so yes, you would count as having a Power Weapon and Pistol, and therefore get the bonus attack. One note is that if you do fire the burna, it no longer counts as anything in assault (it doesn't count as a Normal CCW at any point) so if you fire the burna, you wont get a bonus attack that round because it wont be being used as a Power Weapon. Just something to keep in mind

As always, brought to you by your friendly neighbourhood GWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!

Edit: Multiple Times because I cannot Spell for gak

Gwar! wrote:

...also is a Burna a one handed or two handed weapon?

No Longer relevent . 5th edition has no Such things as "One handed Weapons" or "Two handed Weapons" A burna is simply a Power Weapons (when used as such).

Incorrect.

BRB p.42 wrote:"If a model is using a two-handed close combat weapon (such as a rifle's butt or a two-handed battle axe), it may not use it together with another weapon.

This comes in to play with Big Choppas as well.

On the burnas though, it seems like it's a gray area, they're treated as power weapons which would imply that they're one handed weapons (especially as nothing specifically denotes that they are two-handed), but common sense and the way in which they are modeled would suggest that they are two handed weapons.

Of course, when has common sense entered into 40k?

So - I'm going to have to go with one-handed weapon, as a RAW interpretation anyways.

DebonaireToast wrote:... but common sense and the way in which they are modeled would suggest that they are two handed weapons.

One could say the same of storm bolters as well, since almost every model with one shows them being wielded with one hand yet they've always been two-handed weapons.

Simply put, the rules don't have a default for how many hands it takes to use a weapon and you can't depend on how it's modelled to make a determination either.

The comment about "2 handed Weapons" is because the only "2 handed weapons" are found in old Codex's, not the new ones.

Things like relic Blades are not "two handed" but state they cant get a bonus attack. Not the same thing.

And yeah, the Burna Says "is a power Weapon" which explicitly allows the extra attack as per the BRB

You can use Burna + slugga, but if you fire the burna, you won't get an extra attack from having 2 CCWs. Same goes for slugga + big choppa. I was told this by a GW employee.

Masaioh wrote: I was told this by a GW employee.

Sadly that means, well, nothing. I'm sure if you asked 5 GW Redshirts you'd get 7 different answers.

The rules are what we should follow, and that's what we have posted

Gwar! wrote:

Masaioh wrote: I was told this by a GW employee.

Sadly that means, well, nothing. I'm sure if you asked 5 GW Redshirts you'd get 7 different answers.

The rules are what we should follow, and that's what we have posted

It means that it would probably be allowed in a game. Are there RAW that contradict that statement? IIRC the codex says 'may replace choppa with big choppa'. Wouldn't that mean it's possible to have both a slugga and a big choppa?

Masaioh wrote:It means that it would probably be allowed in a game.

At that store maybe. Not necessarily anywhere else.

It doesn't work anywhere. On page 37 of the BRB it says under the heading Number of Attacks second bullet that, "models with two singlehanded weapons get an extra +1 attack." So models that say they are using a two handed like the Big Choppa can never gain an additional attack due to having an additional close combat weapon.

arinnoor wrote:It doesn't work anywhere. On page 37 of the BRB it says under Number of Attacks second bullet that, models with two singlehanded
weapons get an extra +1 attack.

What do you mean? The Burna counts as a Power Weapons, not a 2 Handed Power Weapon, so qualifies for an bonus attack when combined with a Pistol.

Yes but, the big choppa does not.

May statment was directed at this as to clarify.

Masaioh wrote:You can use Burna + slugga, but if you fire the burna, you won't get an extra attack from having 2 CCWs. Same goes for slugga + big choppa. I was told this by a GW employee.

arinnoor wrote:Yes but, the big choppa does not.

May statment was directed at this as to clarify.

Masaioh wrote:You can use Burna + slugga, but if you fire the burna, you won't get an extra attack from having 2 CCWs. Same goes for slugga + big choppa. I was told this by a GW employee.

Ah my Apologies. Yes, the Big Choppah doesn't allow a bonus attack because it is indeed a "2 Handed CCW".

This kind of outdated wording is pretty much the only reason why that line about 2 handed CCW is even in the BRB.

Ghaz wrote:One could say the same of storm bolters as well, since almost every model with one shows them being wielded with one hand yet they've always been two-handed weapons.

Simply put, the rules don't have a default for how many hands it takes to use a weapon and you can't depend on how it's modelled to make a determination either.

Storm bolters are a bit different actually since they are classified as "Assault" weapons, they would not be eligible for a bonus attack whether they were wielded with one, two, or four hands.

And I agree that the way weapons are modeled is not an adequate way to determine if they are one or two-handed....which is what I essentially said in the two lines of my post after the one you quoted.

The Big Choppa is a good example of this as up until the new Nob box Big Choppas really didn't look any different than regular choppas, even the picture of it in the wargear section of the ork dex looked like a one-handed weapon.

Gwar! wrote:The comment about "2 handed Weapons" is because the only "2 handed weapons" are found in old Codex's, not the new ones.

Things like relic Blades are not "two handed" but state they cant get a bonus attack. Not the same thing.

And yeah, the Burna Says "is a power Weapon" which explicitly allows the extra attack as per the BRB

Actually........

5th Edition SM Dex p. 99 wrote:
Relic blades are two-handed swords or axes sheathed in an armour-sundering power field.

Odd, that's a pretty new codex....the newest actually.

Masaioh wrote:You can use Burna + slugga, but if you fire the burna, you won't get an extra attack from having 2 CCWs. Same goes for slugga + big choppa. I was told this by a GW employee.

That makes perfect sense because by firing the burna you lose its status as a "power weapon" and it reverts back to being an "Assault" weapon which would not be eligible to give an extra attack to the wielder. If you fired the slugga however, as it is a pistol, you would be able to keep the bonus attack - and they would all be power weapon attacks.

5th Edition SM Dex p. 99 wrote:
Relic blades are two-handed swords or axes sheathed in an armour-sundering power field.

Yes you did notice the bit where that's the fluff of the weapon?

The actual RULES for relic blades are:
A relic blade counts as a power weapon whose hits are resolved at Strength 6. Due to its size and weight, a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon.

So, Odd, I dont see any reference to it being a Two Handed Close Combat weapons in the Rules? Do you?

Odd, that's a pretty new codex....the newest actually.

-Cough- Guard Codex is already completed and out to certain people, thereby making it the newest.

Storm bolters: you allways see them as 1 handed since its a termie / PAGK that is using them.
look at IG or sisters that use S.bolters


the big choppa speaks for its self.


burna is a grey area.
it doesent say weather its 1 or 2 handed, so it can go either way since it does not state anything.
allthough judging by its size i would say its 2 handed and does not confer an extra attack when used as a PW.
allthough there will be people who like to find loopholes, and with the way GW words everything its not hard.

JD21290 wrote:Storm bolters: you allways see them as 1 handed since its a termie / PAGK that is using them.
look at IG or sisters that use S.bolters


the big choppa speaks for its self.


burna is a grey area.
it doesent say weather its 1 or 2 handed, so it can go either way since it does not state anything.
allthough judging by its size i would say its 2 handed and does not confer an extra attack when used as a PW.
allthough there will be people who like to find loopholes, and with the way GW words everything its not hard.

There is no loophole to be found.

It says it is a Power Weapon. Not a two handed power Weapon. The default for Power Weapons is that they do give a bonus attack. Nice and simple

ok, how does a burna boy carry a burna?

this is just a slight sense thing here, rather than the lack of rules

JD21290 wrote:ok, how does a burna boy carry a burna?

this is just a slight sense thing here, rather than the lack of rules

The thing is, Logic doesn't ever apply to 40k, only what the rules say. The Burna may be carried 2 handed, but by the rules, a model with a Burna and Pistol counts as having a Power Weapon and a CCW, which confers the extra attack.

i know logic isnt allways 40K's strong point, but it does play a part in it.
burna's have a foregrip on them to allow an ork to support the weight of them.
the burna has a slightly adapted nozzle to allow it to function like this.
i dont see how an ork would need two hands to fire it, but only a single one to wield it in combat.

it "counts" as a PW, but in effect its still a burna.
counts as and what a weapon is are 2 very different things.

sorry about slow reply, had to shoot down to the shops and get some smokes.

Gwar! wrote:

5th Edition SM Dex p. 99 wrote:
Relic blades are two-handed swords or axes sheathed in an armour-sundering power field.

Yes you did notice the bit where that's the fluff of the weapon?

The actual RULES for relic blades are:
A relic blade counts as a power weapon whose hits are resolved at Strength 6. Due to its size and weight, a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon.

So, Odd, I dont see any reference to it being a Two Handed Close Combat weapons in the Rules? Do you?

I would say that it is pretty well understood to be the case as it is mentioned in the "fluff," as you so kindly pointed out, and the rules specifically:

Due to its size and weight, a model wielding a relic blade cannot get an extra attack for an additional close combat weapon.

is essentially a rephrasing of the rules for two-handed weapons, but as always your premise is ironclad.

The codex says they are two-handed weapons and they abide by a codex-specific version of the rules for two-handed weapons, but it does not say that they are two-handed weapons in the appropriate paragraph, so obviously they are really one-handed weapons. Those dirty tricksters at GW... I'm drafting a letter of complaint to Matthew Ward right at this moment. My marine captain may never recover from the psychological trauma.

Gwar! wrote:-Cough- Guard Codex is already completed and out to certain people, thereby making it the newest.

Ok. I'm going to concede that a lot of these arguments are just for the sake of argument. I enjoy debate just for the sake of debate, as long as its at least mostly good-natured and constructive, and it seems that many others on this forum do as well. But...really? Come on now...

I concede... I should have said: "Odd, that's a pretty new codex....the newest one that's actually been released and available for purchase by the unwashed masses and not just store owners and company insiders who get releases over a month early."

My fault...should have been more clear.

DebonaireToast wrote:Storm bolters are a bit different actually since they are classified as "Assault" weapons, they would not be eligible for a bonus attack whether they were wielded with one, two, or four hands.

From page 37 of the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook:

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack.

I see nothing here that would disallow a single-handed Assault weapon from granting an extra attack. Sure, some of the later rules may cast some doubt on the subject, but they don't definitively answer the question. Plus in 4th edition any two single-handed weapons would have provided the extra attack.

Gwar! wrote:It says it is a Power Weapon. Not a two handed power Weapon. The default for Power Weapons is that they do give a bonus attack.

Please show us where in the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook where power weapons are stated to be single-handed weapons.

ghaz, you just fethed yourself over mate :(

"A close combat weapon and/ or a pistol"

a storm bolter is just a standard assault weapon.

Please read all of the quote before you reply:

typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol...

'Typically' does not mean 'exclusively'.

no, but that allows for weapons that include special rules that may give + 1 attack when combined with a pistol / CC weapon.


we could then start giving marines bolters in 1 hand and a chainsword in the other to simply get another attack if the rules start getting broken.

The rules already are 'broken'. It's just in past editions we knew these weapons were two-handed weapons because they were defined as such in the Armoury section of the codices. GW just made the assumption that was good enough and never defined what they were in the new codices.

i know, i hated losing the X handed from it.
made life simple, however, when a model couldnt carry anymore than 1 two handed weapon and 1 single, or 2 single, it was a bit annoying, im sure in 40k the holster is still around

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two singlehanded weapons (typically a close combat weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get an extra +1 attack.

Ghaz wrote:I see nothing here that would disallow a single-handed Assault weapon from granting an extra attack. Sure, some of the later rules may cast some doubt on the subject, but they don't definitively answer the question. Plus in 4th edition any two single-handed weapons would have provided the extra attack.

I admit that I wasn't aware of that - I had always read that as two CCWs. That is some seriously shoddy/inconsistent writing on GWs part as, taken completely RAW anyways, it pretty much makes pistols pointless as :

BRB p.29 wrote:All pistols are effectively Assault 1 weapons with a range of 12" (unless differently specified in their profile.) In addition a pistol counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase

So...if one-handed assault weapons can count towards giving a model an extra attack in close combat, why have pistols as a weapon type at all?

Because as Ghaz mentioned, they don't tell us what weapons are one-handed! So my take on it anyways...Pistols are one-handed assault weapons...assault weapons are two-handed for purposes of determining bonus attacks. But that's just my stab at RAI.

EDIT: Fixed quote.

Because as Ghaz mentioned, they don't tell us what weapons are one-handed! So my take on it anyways...Pistols are one-handed assault weapons...assault weapons are two-handed for purposes of determining bonus attacks. But that's just my stab at RAI.

i agree 100% with this
seems they rather write up an elaborate story now describing how its too heavy so it does not add +1 attack.
why not just fething say its 2 handed!?

Ghaz wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It says it is a Power Weapon. Not a two handed power Weapon. The default for Power Weapons is that they do give a bonus attack.

Please show us where in the Warhammer 40,000 5th edition rulebook where power weapons are stated to be single-handed weapons.

I didnt realise I had to, considering that the codex doesnt say its 2 handed, so I assume we just use the regular rules for power weapons, which allow the bonus attack. Pardon me if playing by the rules offends you.