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This has been the bee in my bonnet since day one. The freak show contains some really interesting units that would almost make for an interesting dynamic in the army, but just do not work in the end. I have decided to try and devise some `house rules' so I can make these units competitive in friendly games.

Arco-Flagellents - 30pts/each
WS4 BS0 S4 T5 W2 I4 A3 Ld8 Sv-
3-6, Infantry
Power weapons
Fearless, Feels No Pain, Fleet
Justification: Firstly, D6 attacks is going the way of the Dodo. 3 Attacks, with +1 on the charge, is the most logical way to rationalise this. Their 4+ Invulnerable does not make much sense, but the Feels No Pain rule seems to fit perfectly, so a simple exchange, even if it is a slight nerf. Holy Rage is a plain stupid rule, so Fleet instead. I also scrapped their auto-death rule. Even a Guardsman with a Plasmagun is less likely to kill himself, so this was just plain stupid. They were still pretty squishy and seemed unlikely to ever make it to combat, so made them two wounds (like Nobz). I felt 30 points was about right for this.

Penitent Engines - 60pts/each
WS4 BS2 S10 Front11 Side11 Back10 I3 A3
1-3, Walker
Two DCCW with flamers, flamers fire as twin-linked
Fleet
Justification: Again, D6 rationalised to 3A, dropped the Open Topped because it was always a stupid idea, again turned Holy Rage into Fleet, then standardised the two Flamers into a twin-linked Flamer rather than a Heavy Flamer (fits the rest of the game better then). I felt this was notably better than a Killa Kan, but still well inferior of a Dreadnought, so 60 points.

Priests (HQ selection) - 50 points
WS4 BW3 S3 T3 W2 I4 A2 Ld9 -
1, Infantry
Close Combat Weapon, Rosarius
Fleet
May exchange Close Combat Weapon for a Laspistol for free.
May take a Plasmagun for +10pts.
May take an Evicerator for +25pts.
May take a Blessed Weapon for +30pts.
Must take one sermon:
* Sermon of ?? - the unit may roll three dice for acts of faith and select two.
* Sermon of ?? - the unit may reroll missed hits in close combat.
* Sermon of ?? - the unit gains Feels No Pain.
* Sermon of ?? - the unit gains +1WS and +1A.
Justification: Priests were always a hack job taken from Guard without making them actually fit the army. I felt a HQ Priest would surely have a Rosarius, and would be a fanatic (+1WS +1A). It also seemed stupid that the HQ unit had the same leadership as the basic troops, so +1 there. Fleet makes more sense than `hey, your gunline army cannot use guns because this one guy actually wants to get into close combat'. They still do not really contribute anything to the army, so I thought giving them `Sermons' that act like a Warlock's abilities would be the appropriate way to go. At the moment, I have just brain-dumped a few simple ideas, as I am still unsure of how to go about such a thing.

Sisters Repentia - 14/each, 24 for Mistress
Repentia WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
Mistress WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I4 A2 Ls9 Sv4+
5-20, Infantry
Two-Handed Chainswords (+2S), 2x Neural Whip (Mistress)
Repentia may take Evicerators for +15pts
Faithful, Fearless, Fleet
Justification: these were the worst hack-job of the Codex. Their mere existence makes no sense by the fluff (should they not be individuals who are operating away from the order?), but they have already made the cool models, so I want to use them. I figured they should have the same stat-line as all other Sisters, but WS4 (since they are using CCW all the time) and I4 (since they are out of the clumsy power armour). I was not sure whether 4+ or 5+ armour was better, so left it alone. Swinging last with fragile troops is plain stupid, so I downgraded them to 'Uge Choppa-level weapons, which makes them work a bit like slower, more fragile Striking Scorpions. Again swapped Holy Rage for Fleet. I could never understand why this unit was not Faithful, if they are supposed to have completely given themselves over to the Emperor, so corrected that. Not that it is likely to help much. They are still way too expensive, so I decided 14 points (the same as a Celestian).

This is mostly just some random ideas I have had floating around, so they will probably need a lot of work. Comments, criticism and/or suggestions would be most appreciated!

get rid saraphim's hit-and-run. if you are going to assault a squad of my guardsmen, you should have to sit there like all other units/armies in the game and take shooting from the rest of my army when you kill them all.

Overall I like this. I do have some suggestions.

Priest should have Laspistol and Power Weapon as standard with the Power weapon exchangeable for the other weapon options.

Repentia shouldn't be faithful because they’re doing the 'Repentia' thing to become faithful again. Maybe Repentia could have Feel no Pain.

How will you WYSIWYG a large Chainsword vs. an Eviserstor?

Perhaps Eviserators should be +2 Str –2 Init Rending, 2 Handed.

What about Death Cult Assassins?

Taking away the 'ignore armour' and 2d6 pen aspect of the repentia makes them even more useless than they are now. Great, you get a T3, 4+ save model with a S5CC attack for 14 points!?

The fix for repentia was published in Chapter Approved - they're called Zealots, and they are what repentia should have been all along.

Penitent Engines need to be comparable to a kan. A kan with a skorcha is 40 points. You're adding 20 points for fleet (largely irrelevant as everyone can run) and one attack. I'd keep the 'possessed' rule (cannot be shaken/stunned) and drop them to 55. (40 for kan base, 5 for an attack, 5 for fleet, 5 for possessed). They'll still get owned by dreads because of the initiative difference.

Thanks for the comments!

George Spiggott wrote:Repentia shouldn't be faithful because they’re doing the 'Repentia' thing to become faithful again. Maybe Repentia could have Feel no Pain.

There is nothing in the fluff that they have lost their faith, only that they have disgraced themselves. This could be a Sister Superior, for example, whose unit was annihilated by her poor command. By the fluff, they are supposed to have completely given themselves over to the Emperor, so would that not make them more faithful? Then again, by the fluff this unit should not even exist, as they are supposed to be individuals on self-imposed exile from their order...

George Spiggott wrote:How will you WYSIWYG a large Chainsword vs. an Eviserstor?

Honestly, I am still trying to work that one out. Even in my current army, I just use chainswords and call them Evicerators, and no one has complained before. Having a unit mixing both is going to be a headache.

George Spiggott wrote:What about Death Cult Assassins?

I have been thinking about those, but currently have not found a way to make them work. They just do not seem to `fit' in fifth edition.

Redbeard wrote:Taking away the 'ignore armour' and 2d6 pen aspect of the repentia makes them even more useless than they are now. Great, you get a T3, 4+ save model with a S5CC attack for 14 points!?

If they are no longer I1 they are now capable of swinging. Having power weapons is all well and good, but if you do not swing there is no value in it. It also makes them second-rate Arco-Flagellants, who put out more power weapon attacks with higher survivability. They definitely still need work, but they can never work with Evicerators. If they were something like Striking Scorpions (T3 Sv3+ models with S4CC attacks for 16 points) they would have a role.

Redbeard wrote:The fix for repentia was published in Chapter Approved - they're called Zealots, and they are what repentia should have been all along.

I have to admit, I have thought the same thing on a few occasions. I would still like to see them become an actual elite unit, however, as the army is currently lacking in that area. Currently, your choice is only min-maxed Battle Sisters (Celestians).

Redbeard wrote:Penitent Engines need to be comparable to a kan. A kan with a skorcha is 40 points. You're adding 20 points for fleet (largely irrelevant as everyone can run) and one attack. I'd keep the 'possessed' rule (cannot be shaken/stunned) and drop them to 55. (40 for kan base, 5 for an attack, 5 for fleet, 5 for possessed). They'll still get owned by dreads because of the initiative difference.

I agree, they should be more like a Kan. Their Rampage rule no longer has any meaning, as all squads of walkers ignore shaken and stunned. This is essentially a freebie in fifth edition. I had originally thought 55, but was worried that was too cheap. I read once that you should add 10% to whatever you think is the right price, because you are always undercosting it.
__________

I have been toying around with more changes. I was thinking that two wounds on the Arco-Flagellant was too much, so am thinking perhaps a 5++/FNP and dropping them to 1W again. They will still struggle to get into combat, however, so I was wondering if a 12'' charge may be in order?

Penitent Engines at 55 points is probably worth playtesting. If I find they are doing too well, maybe bump them back up.

I am also thinking that the Priest `sermons' are a bit too fancrufty, so scaling it back to his existing rule of conferring Preferred Enemy to the squad. The laspistol and power weapon is not a bad idea

I am thinking maybe drop the Repentia to 12 points and give them a transport option. The Salamander appears to be an open-topped Chimera, so stripping it back to just the body should be a gunless, open-topped transport for up to 12 fanatics.

Why shouldn't penitent engines be open-topped? I mean, if you're tied to the front of it, you're not very well protected.

Am I the only one who thinks that a Penitent Engine should be a Monsterous Creature and NOT a walker?

Any reason why it should? Currently it is open topped for no benefit, but a massive penalty, which leads to no one fielding them. They are just too fragile and never get to where they need to be. The guy on the front does not pilot the thing (hence why they had the Rampage rule), he just powers it. Then again, this is a unit with less fluff than is between my toes.

I have toyed with the idea of it being a monstrous creature, but that seems like too drastic a change.

Not really, something like T7 W3 Sv3+ (&/or Feel no Pain) Ld7 Fearless, Fleet and Rage in squads of 1-3 should do the trick.

Should make them more useful and better survivors.

Elric of Grans wrote:I am also thinking that the Priest `sermons' are a bit too fancrufty, so scaling it back to his existing rule of conferring Preferred Enemy to the squad. The laspistol and power weapon is not a bad idea.

I agree, I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, Preferred Enemy sounds much better.

RE: Death-cult Assassins: How about giving them the Temple assassin profile (2 wounds) and making them small squads of 3-5 assassins. That way they’d make up for their lack of specialist equipment with numbers.

There could be one squad member with special equipment perhaps Melta-bombs, Demo charge and Inferno pistol for tank hunting. A special weapon assassin using the Orrus Spyrer (SP) model from necromunda would be interesting, No idea what he'd do though. I already use the 'claw' Spyrer for Death Cult Assassins along with the classic 'ninja' assasin model. Some sort of toxin using assasin would be interesting too.

[edit] I think the Daemonhost is a legitimate target for some work too, all the non SOB/GK stuff could do with some work.

Kettu, that would make them more survivable than a Hive Tyrant Even Karamazov(sp?) is only T5 W4 Sv2+, and they should be far less survivable than he is. The nearest equivalent to a Penitent Engine in the game is a Furioso Dreadnought or a Deff Dread, rather than a Carnifex.

Death Cult already have two wounds, but building them up into a larger assassin unit is an interesting idea. Perhaps something like Harlequins? Mash together different Assassins to make a unit of diverse skills. You could not put everything together at once, but perhaps an Officio Assassinorum leading 2-4 Death Cultists. It would probably not work with the Vindicare, but the others could be more interesting. Making them all one unit helps with survivability and Kill Points. You could perhaps specialise the Death Cult equipment depending on their leader (eg Power Weapon with the Callidus, but Sniper Rifles with the Vindicare, or Power Stakes with the Cullexus), and they probably all need Frags as standard equipment.

I have never played Daemonhunters, so I cannot comment on the Daemonhost. All I do know is that he does not seem even remotely like his fluff!

I just wish GW could smack out an if not new but an updated Codex, alot of stuff is so crappy that you never field them which has the result that instead of a fun and versatile army you get a static Mech/exorcist army with no other units even making it off your bookshelf.

My take on the Daemonhost can be summarized like this: You roll a D6 and get the right ability at the wrong moment... all the time... My bookshelf is their home.

Fabbles wrote:I just wish GW could smack out an if not new but an updated Codex

Believe me when I say you don't want that. Once GW gets around to re-doing Witch Hunters, say goodbye to our Rogue's Gallery of units and say hellow to Codex: Sisters of Battle. Sure, that might make SoB players happy, but for us Inquisition players, it will be a day filled with Generic Inquisitors, Generic Henchmen, Generic Assassins and all sorts of other bland hopelessness.

Kettu wrote:Am I the only one who thinks that a Penitent Engine should be a Monsterous Creature and NOT a walker?

All Walkers should have a T value rather than AV, but that's a separate issue...

The biggest fix for the freakshow stuff is either making he priest no longer mandatory or making the priest an option people wish to use.

OTTOMH I can't remember the exact priest rules but some suggestions

1. drop that stupid, stupid, stupid rage equivalent he has replace it with a simple (if at the beginning of an assault phase is within 6" of an opponent he must charge) or drop it all together.

2. Make them IC's

3. confer fearless and preferred enemy to a unit

but dropping the priest requirement would mean seeing a lot more penitent's and arch-flagellants (both of which are decent but not spectacular units hamstrung by the sodding priest).

Penitent Engines - twin heavy flamer please not a flamer, that ap is crucial. keep their rampage rule, keep rage, fleet, drop the price a bit possibly swap D6 for 3-4 attacks. Open-topped can stay or go. The model is clearly open-topped but the penitent isn't really in control just price it appropriately and drop the priest and they become useful. Their already absolutely lethal against orks.

Archo-Flagellants - I like the fact that their "trigger word" ability made it into the game from =][=. They mostly suffer from a) the sodding priest and b) difficulty getting into cc. FNP would help with b and would fit the fluff, possibly teamed with a 5++.

Because I like the trigegr word and the possibility that it would backfire but I recognise that many players don't like he unit to kill itself how about a compromise. Make no-triggered archos moe usable and trigerred ones nastier but likely to kill themselves.

something like
normal - str4, init4 ,WS4, T4, 5++, 2 attacks, power weapons, fearless (as their stupid)
triggered - fleet, rage, str5, init4, WS4, T4, 5++, FNP, D6 attacks, power weapons, fearless, preferred enemy
(for every fleet roll of 6 remove one model, for every attack that rolls a 1 to hit resolve that attack against the archos)

not quite there, it may be a little bit too powerful but basically we want a unit that is a usable but unimpressive assault unit most of the time that you can trigger and turn into a monster that will almost certainly remove an opponent's uber squad (i.e. nob bikers, terminators) but will equally almost certainly die in the process.

repentia - not being armed with eviscerators, being dirt cheap and being troops would be the main fixes needed. If the have to be armed with eviscerators (as the models have them) then how about some kind of invulnerable or fnp save. and imho they should get faith.


death cultists - let them stay as one unit. Nothing wrong with high init infiltrating power weapon weilders, they make a very good unit for dealing with gunlines. grenades and other specialised "disruption" gear (i.e. meltabombs, demo charges, teleport jammers, etc) would be fluffy but not really necessary.

In a fifth edition styled codex, I could not see the Priest restriction staying. That said, I want to field a Priest. He just royally sucks! I am not sure about conferring Fearless on the unit (the Codex already has a dozen ways to make the unit Ld10 Stubborn and Fearless, we really do not need another), but the rest is along the lines of what I have been thinking. His stat-line needs a little tweaking too (a HQ with the lowest leadership on the table? As if!).

With the Penitent Engines, I agree that the Heavy Flamer is better for the player, but it is only there because the book was written in third edition. Now that rules for twin-linked template weapons have been standardised, it would make more sense for it to fire as a twin-linked flamer. After all, if you tell your opponent that you have two of the same weapon, therefore it fires as a better weapon, they will throw the rule book at you! It is better to keep things consistent with the rest of the game. I would also like to have my Seraphim fire their Hand Flamers twin-linked, but my friends will not be likely to give me that one

With the Arco-Flaggellants, the auto-death rule, while fluffy, will drive the majority of players away. If his Termies do not die on the roll of a six every single phase of the game, why should mine? Even a Guardsman with a Plasmagun will only die every 0.11 turns, whereas an Arco-Flagellent dies every 0.5 turns (assuming he moved, ran and was in an assault). That is plain stupid! Making complicated rules whereby they are usable switched off, but better switched on, you are just asking to create a broken unit. Either it will still be too weak to use when off, or it will be stupidly over-powered when on. The line is too thin with something like this. It is better to leave the fluf in Inquisitor and just make a unit that works for 40K.

Repentia must not swing last. Even Nid players do not want their Carnifex swinging last, with T6 and (potentially) Sv2+. T3 Sv4+ (even 4++) infantry do not have a chance. They need to swing at initiative (or at least most of the unit does) so they are not all killed before they get to attack. Cheaper is also a must! Troops are an interesting suggestion, but I think they would be better turned into an proper elite unit and just use Frateris Militia/Zealots as the CC troops.

Grenades actually would be valuable for Death Cult, as they do not want to be assaulting into cover without them. Other things, as you said, could be nice, but are unnecessary.

Elric of Grans wrote:… but perhaps an Officio Assassinorum leading 2-4 Death Cultists. It would probably not work with the Vindicare, but the others could be more interesting. Making them all one unit helps with survivability and Kill Points. You could perhaps specialise the Death Cult equipment depending on their leader (eg Power Weapon with the Callidus, but Sniper Rifles with the Vindicare, or Power Stakes with the Cullexus), and they probably all need Frags as standard equipment.

That’s not quite what I had in mind. I think ‘Temple’ assassins should remain separate entities.

3-6 Death Cult Assassins as a squad with Frag Grenades on their profile would probably be a good start though.

I have taken a bit of a look at it, but they seem like they need something else. While turning them into a unit of 3-6 would make them viable, the only thing they have to distinguish themselves from Arco-Flagellents would be Infiltrate. There are already more than enough redundant units in the Codex without adding another. It needs a something a little different.

Elric of Grans wrote:
I agree, they should be more like a Kan. Their Rampage rule no longer has any meaning, as all squads of walkers ignore shaken and stunned. This is essentially a freebie in fifth edition.

What if you only take one engine. Then it isn't a squadron, and Rampage is useful again...

@ Elric of Grans: True, that's why I had previously suggested that they should perhaps be accompanied by a demolitions type assassin or some such.

Still, just making them viable would be a start.

Ah, you are right. A `Sergeant' type with a specialised role accompanied by regular Death Cultists would make for a more interesting unit. Perhaps choice of one of (a, b, c) for the specialist, defining the role of the squad (eg anti-tank, anti-infantry)? Perhaps the selection of specialist equipment may give the whole squad different options (eg the specialist can take meltabombs, which then gives Kraks to the squad)?

Redbeard wrote:What if you only take one engine. Then it isn't a squadron, and Rampage is useful again...

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the rule, but I thought that they always counted as a Squadron of Walkers. Even in the Codex, it says `squadrons of 1-3', thereby (RAW) you can have a squadron of one. Please correct me if my interpretation is wrong (I will need to tell a few others I know if that is the case), but it seems Penitent Engines would always follow the rules for a Squadron of Walkers, regardless of how many you field. As such, Killa Kanz get the Rampage rule for free, meaning that we are ripping ourselves off paying for it with Penitent Engines.

"If a squadron consists of a single vehicle when an enemy unit fires at it, it reverts to the normal rules for vehicle damage results." Being considered a squadron doesn't matter, squadrons of one revert to normal damage rules.

Thanks for the clarification there! Looks like the Rampage rule does warrant keeping after all.