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Ok, this came up in a game recently...

Lets say you have some unit with a flamer shooting at a squad that is rather close to a unit in close combat, and you were able to place the flamer so that it hit the squad you are shooting at, and a large majority of the enemy units in CC. Of course you have to make sure that the template does not touch any of your own units in CC and that this way will touch as many enemy models as possible. So given these conditions...is it legal to have a flamer/template weapon hit enemy units locked into CC?

Yes, so long as you are covering the maximum amount of enemies in the unit you are shooting at. You cannot count enemy models in the other unit for that purpose.

Incorrect.

P40: "While blast markers and templates may not be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat..."

Right, not delibratly. But if placing the template so that it covers the most enamy models possable happens to be over models in CC then they are hit. And I am not sure but I think you may include any enemy models you can hit, from any squad so long as you are hitting at least one from target squad. I don't think the wording in the book stipulates it to the target squad. However I could be wrong on the last part, don't rule book with me. I will check when I get home and post if no one does first

you must get as many models as possible in your target squad you cant hit one modelin the squad you are targetting (unless thats the most you can get) just so you can get 5 in another squad, if you can hit 5 in the target squad you have to hit all 5 and being as the tem[plate does not scatter if you place the template so it hits models in CC you are deliberatly targeting models in CC so its not a valid placement.

Aye, you cannot "deliberately" place the template to catch enemies in CC. That means if you could catch 4 Models in the target unit without Hitting the CC, and 4 Models while hitting the CC, you would have to hit 4 Models without hitting the CC

However, if the most you could cover is 3 without hitting the cc, but placing the template hitting the CC hits 4 in the target unit, you have to hit the 4 and clip the CC.

The "deliberately" is for situations when you can choose to place the marker (the 4/4 situation I described and for any sort of Blast marker)

Again this has been gone over you cannot shoot into CC (unless you scatter into CC) being as the flamer dosenot scatter you are placing the template into CC so its not a valid placement. But hey if you want to make a house rule go for it in a RTT or GT you would be told no.

I guess I should quote the whole rule:

"While blast markers and templates may not be placed such that they cover any models locked in combat, they may end up there after scattering and will then hit any models they touch (friend or foe)."

The only exception given is post-scatter. Hence, you can't place the template so that it hits a close combat - it can only scatter into a close combat. Since flamer templates almost never scatter, you can't do so.

"Hit the most enemies possible in the target unit" combined with "cannot touch enemies in close combat" combine like this:

If you could hit 4 enemies, but you touch a cc, or 3 without, then....

The most models you could possibly hit, without touching the cc, is 3. So you hit 3.

Edit: ya I suppose that is the right ruling. Seems I misread it. Oops.

If you place the template so that it is touching a model in CC, then you are *deliberately* placing it to touch a model in CC.
IOW, No....

Alright, well you all have cleared that up. Thanks.

There is only one situation where I think this would be legal: the 3-way scenario in the BGB. There are rules for shooting into CC involving your two opponents.

::edit:: Rogue carriage returns... grr.

Yes but then you must directly target the CC.

I suppose, but it at least gives you a basis for flexibility in situations.

Very True.

Could you Target the CC but still hit another squad?
like this, You are Q, X and Z are locked into combat Z is a 3rd Squad but not one of yours: so could Q use a templat flamer and Target the X squad but still hit it, Y and Z? Needless to say the rest of Q's squad must also shoot at X. Would they get to take a Cover, there are locked into combat?

XXX
XYX
XXX

ZZZ

Q

psf3077 wrote:Could you Target the CC but still hit another squad?
like this, You are Q, X and Z are locked into combat Z is a 3rd Squad but not one of yours: so could Q use a templat flamer and Target the X squad but still hit it, Y and Z? Needless to say the rest of Q's squad must also shoot at X. Would they get to take a Cover, there are locked into combat?

XXX
XYX
XXX

ZZZ

Q

#1 - read the rest of this thread. You can't place the template so it hits models in close combat.

#2 - templates negate cover saves. (note, templates are not blast markers)

Centurian99 wrote:#1 - read the rest of this thread. You can't place the template so it hits models in close combat.

#2 - templates negate cover saves. (note, templates are not blast markers)

You've missed the point of that bit entirely. We're discussing that 3 way scenario at the back of the Big Rulebook, which does have rules for firing into CC, as we have sorted the original question.

psf3077 wrote:Could you Target the CC but still hit another squad?
like this, You are Q, X and Y are locked into combat Z is a 3rd Squad but not one of yours: so could Q use a templat flamer and Target the X squad but still hit it, Y and Z? Needless to say the rest of Q's squad must also shoot at X. Would they get to take a Cover, there are locked into combat?

XXX
XYX
XXX

ZZZ

Q

In the 3-way scenario, assuming that X and Y and Z are all enemy models, I would say RaW is that you could target the squads in this way. Note that you could also target Z and consequently hit X and Y as well. It was already pointed out that Template weapons ignore cover saves.

Gwar! wrote:We're discussing that 3 way scenario at the back of the Big Rulebook, which does have rules for firing into CC

Wait, I'm lost, what page is this on?

To kinda rehash on the original issue.... lets say you could not place a flamer template or blast marker on a unit without hitting enemy models in CC (for example, trying to shoot a carnifex with a vindicator blast and the large blast will cover guants in CC nearby before rolling to scatter). Would you then be unable to shoot said weapon at that enemy?

Going by what has been said already in this thread, and going strictly by the rules, it seems that you would be unable to shoot the template/blast weapon.

Axyl wrote:To kinda rehash on the original issue.... lets say you could not place a flamer template or blast marker on a unit without hitting enemy models in CC (for example, trying to shoot a carnifex with a vindicator blast and the large blast will cover guants in CC nearby before rolling to scatter). Would you then be unable to shoot said weapon at that enemy?

Going by what has been said already in this thread, and going strictly by the rules, it seems that you would be unable to shoot the template/blast weapon.

Correct. In a "normal" game, you would be unable to shoot your flamer. Blast weapons are completely different, though. As long as your original placement used for targeting does not hit any models in CC, it can scatter wherever it wants to.