Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Company Command Squad (CCS)
+Regimental Standard
+Vox
+H.bolter
+Astropath
+Office of the fleet
+Chimera = 195

Infantry Platoon
1xPlatoon command squad (PCS)
+4xFlamer

3x Infantry squad
+1x Vox
+3x Lascannons
+3x Grenade launchers = 280
(Blob squad)

Veterans (10man)
+3x Meltas = 100

Vendetta gunship = 130

Valkyrie assault carrier
+Rocket pods = 130

2x Eradicators = 320

1x Executioner = 190

1x Medusa
+Bastion breacher shells
+Enclosed crew compartement = 155

= 1500pts

The Platoon command squad to go in the vendetta & the melta vets to go in the valkyrie. The 3x10man teams for a 30man blob squad & are support by the CCS chimera.

Comments & feedback appreicated - Ive got this army on order now! I did post a similiar list but I changed it quite drastically after the original posting.

Edit: I may take out the Officer of the fleet & one PCS flamer for an exec lascannon & CCS lascannon. Ill see how my current anti-tank fares.

It is pretty tough to neck it down to 1500, isn't it? I was suprised when I saw how hard it could be, since you have to start making some concession about the 'must have' units.

I think there are a few

Psyker Battle Squad

Melta Veterans

Executioner

Vendetta

In 1500, I feel you made the right choice letting the psykers go. You have a triad effect in 40k, the need to kill armor, the need to kill dudes, and the need to stay alive and mobile long enough to score. The psykers help with 1 and 2 but not well enough, I think for 1500. Unless you bet the farm on them.

OK, I HATE the eradicators and am really not too keen on the medusa, either.

The CCS is just sort of there, you didn't really max it out, probably because it is vulnerable and you don't have the points too. I am not sure if that is a great call or not- BS 4 and potentially FNP plasma are generally pretty good- especially with only one executioner.

You've got three AV-14 hulls there, which is great, but I would try to get regular LRBT rather than exterminators. As far as ignoring cover goes, the colossus is so much better it is unreal. But it doesn't help with your armor dilution.

My recommendation would be to change the exterminators into regular LRBT, and consider a colossus instead of the medusa.

Ive concidered most of your suggestions before I finalized this list. The psykers, while shooty or utilitarian are just too weak. Notice how most of my weaker vehicles wont be on the board for a few turns. I dont like the idea of massed weak vehicles.

I need the Astropath. I really want that standard. I want the OotF. Now this squad is as expensive as it should be for its survivability. Simple choice there.

If I need to take out heavy infantry, ap2 str 10 ordenance with a 36" range will do me fine. Plus the executioner & im down.

Likewise the meduas is the best weapon to deal with landraiders & monoliths alike. Str 10 with a 2d6 & pick the highest is the best option, ImhO. Only a few other things do as well & they have thier own draw-backs (lower str, poor AP, one-shot, lacking anti-tank punch with bastion breachers.)

Things that stick to cover - light infantry, so 4+ saving troops, generally. Meq's (that stick to cover )will be few in number & get blatted by the ap1-2 weapons im fielding, having to rely on inferior 4+ cover saves & loose models as a result. Expensive models. While the colossus can also annhilate MEQ's it will be laughed of by TEQ's & also has a dabilitatingly short min range.

A LRBT is an immobile heavy tank (Ordenance). I dont want this.
What I do want is to annhilate infantry. The eradicators will do this. All-mech armies still have infantry inside vehicles & you still need to be able to deal with that element. (Like Silvethorne mentioned).

With that in mind.. anything else?

I'm confused as to why you posted that the LRBT is an immobile heavy tank because of the ordnance...you can still move and fire ordnance so it is no less mobile than any other tank variant. Also a battle cannon is pretty decent at taking out chunks of infantry which is what you say you want. Just my thoughts.

Razerous wrote:A LRBT is an immobile heavy tank (Ordenance). I dont want this.
What I do want is to annhilate infantry. The eradicators will do this. All-mech armies still have infantry inside vehicles & you still need to be able to deal with that element. (Like Silvethorne mentioned).

With that in mind.. anything else?

First, read Lumbering Behemoth. Then you will change your mind.

I'd reccomend Pask inside a Punisher with hull lascannon and sponson HBs. ~250 points of pure pwnage to tranports,MCs, and mobs of dudes which are very likely to be seen at this point level.

I would take the flamers away from the PCS and give your command squad lascannons. They just are allowing advisors, so for 40 points add two BS4 lascannons.

Would take the grenade launchers away from the infantry, S4/6 isn't that good.

Nenya97 wrote:

First, read Lumbering Behemoth. Then you will change your mind.

I'd reccomend Pask inside a Punisher with hull lascannon and sponson HBs. ~250 points of pure pwnage to tranports,MCs, and mobs of dudes which are very likely to be seen at this point level.

I would take the flamers away from the PCS and give your command squad lascannons. They just are allowing advisors, so for 40 points add two BS4 lascannons.

Would take the grenade launchers away from the infantry, S4/6 isn't that good.

Okay - I just dont like the standard LRBT (But good point about Lumbering Bee ignoring ordenance restrictions). I see too much MC with 2+'s & TEQ's. Im also prepared to pay the premium to get consistent amounts of damage coming through with atleast one of those three blasts. Last turn, I need to cause one wound to force a morale check on an objective holding squad & my standard LRBT scatters completely off them - no thanks. Pask & a punisher.. Hmm, that varient was my favourite choice for pask & good call about the hull lascannon.. but 13hits @ str 5 vs a standard MEQ = poor fare. Id prefer roughly 10 hits from 2 larger blasts @ str 6. Against weaker troops and/or 4+ or worse.. no contest. Ive got stronger/more penetrating things vs MC's/tanks. Im prepared to pay 70pts for an extra 14/13/10 vehicle.

The flamers allow my PCS to drop from the anti-tank detta (which is no use vs a mob of gaunts that I -need- to remove) and lay down 4 str 4 ap 5 no cover templates & ignore thier poor BS. Im very unlikely to take two dangerous terrain wounds so the squad will drop & do its job (and hopefully score too!)

As for the CSM - it takes two guardsmen to form a heavy-weapons-team. Be it lascannon or h.bolter. The h.bolter synegises with the chimeras standard weapons. 4 guardsmen - A= vox, B= Regimental standard, C&D= H.bolter heavy weapons team. Plus I want to keep the points to a minium.

Why grenade launchers - with blasts they will be better than lasguns & works well with the 'On my target'. With krak-grenades, with bring it down, (with lascannons too) against AV12 or less, they can actually accomplish somthing. Three lascannons could miss & my first krak-shot could immobilise a tank (Yes, it can only ever glance av12.. its better than a lasgun/sniper/flamer (for range) & is worth 5pts, 15pt total).

Thanks for the feedback.

If anything I would just take a look at playing chess with your army. I move here and unload, what is the return? That in its self is what most people forget when they are pointing up a list. To me the vets just scream out of place because one they are a troop and there main goal is to crack armour. The return here is that your looking at what ever was in the armour and or near it is going to remove the vet squad.

The other is that your list seems just a bit sit and fire type and that is what most armies die from. If something gets to your lines which they will, they are going to bring in one hell of a chunck of guys ie Troops which is the backbone of your list. Once you start to loose troops your options for taking objectives drop big time as this puts your in a tighter spot. IE forcing your hand to do things you really dont want to.

1x Medusa
+Bastion breacher shells
+Enclosed crew compartement = 155
I really think you should try out a Vanq tank as this one will give you greater armour and range. The downside is that your bs 3 but the upside is that the medusa is the same and you never know when your LRBT I mean Medusa is going to scatter off its target. I myself have been toying with a three Vanq list with the backbone in the list being troop killing power from the rest of the army. Though I have not really had a lot of time to read over the new codex, that will change in two days.

Tarval wrote:
1x Medusa
+Bastion breacher shells
+Enclosed crew compartement = 155
I really think you should try out a Vanq tank as this one will give you greater armour and range.

I prefer my chances, esp on larger footprint targets like monoliths & landraiders (the former of which will laugh off vanq rounds), hitting with a blast template.

This vehicle also provides my main blobby instant death str 10 ap 2 large blast. Anti-everything weapon. With a 54" effective range on the bastion breacher shells, I shant have too much of a problem with range.

Ahhh chess, counter & return & what-not. Thats why ive fielded dual-role valkyries. The vets are in the rocket pod valkyrie so ideally that rocket-pod valkyrie will have a good go at destroying any immediate assaulting threats near my target tank. If its simply a lone vehicle, they will drop in & pew. Its its a lone objective..well likewise. If I really need that objective that turn.. both the flamer platoon squad drops down & quadruple templates whatever infantry there is on/near an objectives & the vets will try & smoke whatever vehicle is on/near that objective. At the end of the day I am going to get shot at & I dont see a better route to gain mobile troops.

That 30-man blob is extremely vunerable to a charge but I will try & prevent such things happening but Im more scared of ranged shooting breaking each 10man squad seperatly than I am worried about assaults vs 30. My troops are a bit limited, if established but I couldnt help picking shiny things.

Edit: I simply dont have the points to buy things like a commisar for the infantry squads, or marbo, or a lascannon for the CCS, or sponsons for the russes (Although I prefer mobile cheap hulls). Its only 20-50pts either way but that would require me to remove whole chunks of army. A detta here, a infantry squad there & its already balanced & required.

I feel like the anti-tank PCS should go in the anti-tank transport since you'll be maneuvering it to get goos shots on side/rear armor in the first place, which naturally places the AT PCS dropping of it in a more ideal position. Likewise the Valk/flamer unit will naturally be chasing around infantry and as a result you won't have to potentially sacrifice the firepower from one to put the other in the position it needs to be in.

Interesting spread in the infantry squads, LAscannons and Grenade Launchers seem to be mostly contradictory of each other. Its hard to be critical of the Lascannons now with Bring it Down twin linking them. The Grenade Launchers just seem subpar to flamers for infantry or plasma/melta for heavy infantry/AT. When I say subpar I mean that they seem only barely effective against both and at that point I'd rather have a gun that is just good against one of them.

How have the Eradicators been working out for you? I'm very tempted to drop an Executioner for one in my 1750 list, but haven't quite pulled the trigger on it yet. The ability to negate cover saves seems VERY powerful in 5th, and you can also give it a variety of sponson weapons and such to make it more effective against other things if need be. I'm considering taking one with either Multimelta or Plasma Cannon sponsons. Same with the Medusa, I'm very interested in hearing results on how its working. The theory behind it seems good, but in practice I'm not really sure if the Bastion-Breachers are accurate enough to place any sort of reliability on it smashing the tan it needs to smash.

I'm considering the Manticore for my anti-armor 14 tank in Guard. I know it's only got 4 shots, but each shot fires d3 warheads so I expect it to fire more str 10 templates than anything else in the game. The chance to get 2 or 3 templates from one shot is pretty good for taking down enemy armor. It already comes enclosed and can fire direct or indirectly at a superior range. I know I'm thinking outside the box with this one, but a few Manticores are my preferred weapon of choice against AV 14.

I think you've gotten a bit mistaken on my PCS loadouts. Its the vets whom are the airbourne anti-tank crew. The 4xflamer wielding PCS hope into the anti-tank vendetta. If I want to deploy by standard means.. they probably wont be in range - a weakness of template weapons. But ofcourse with a 24" flat-out move I should be able to deploy that squad in most places.

The anti-tank crew goes with the anti-troop bird so I can commit both vehicles to accompish multiple tasks. If the rocket-pod equipped valkyrie doesnt have any foot-based infantry to shoot at then it can flat-out & deploy the melta vets to deal with the armor apparenty & likewise.. if theres lots of armor.. the vendetta need not deploy the flamer PCS while it opens up with three lascannons. The detta may be slow but it makes up for it in range & outflankability.

Its either grenade launchers, snipers or flamers. Flamers are too short ranged for what I want & snipers have poor ap & are ineffective vs hordey troops. A grenade launcher on frag is worth 2-3 lasgun hits, so 4-6 lasguns fired & the stronger grenade shot can deny heavier infantry an armor save aswell as denting AV12 or less vehicles. Im not prepared to spend points on plasma - I dont have the points to spend, otherwise sure. Melta is again, too short ranged. In 1750+ id upgrade those grenade launchers aswell as perhaps equipping my CCS with 3 plasma guns.

I havent had any experience with IG at all.. but I have used 2+ cover-save troops & been against & used cover-ignoring weapons so I understand thier potentail. I even get worried & deploy more defensively when I know im up against an Airburst fragmentation launcher & thats a vastly inferior weapon/platform compared to the Eradicator.

IG are BS3. Blasts are favourable on BS3. Avarge scatter is 7" not including the 32% chance of a 'Hit' roll on a 5-6.. Thats 4" actual scatter with the close edge of a vehicle being 2" away, the corners about 3". More on bigger vehicles.. fewer worth vehicles are smaller (I.e Ironclads is the notable one there). Either use vets with melta (& i have) or 'Orders!' supported infantry (& again, I have) or massed raw BS3 firepower.
One of the main reasons im fielding this weapon (Medua) is because it can deal with Monoliths & do it properly from behind cover/without LOS in addition to being very effective against everything else - Other weapons have more limited roles, but none can do so well.

Edit: I nearly went for manticores.. Crazy amount of firepower but I was put off for three reasons. 1) Min range of 24" = instance abusable weakness. 2) Lack of AP2 means 2+ armor laughs off the hits. 3) ... Um no, just two it seems!

One of the main reasons im fielding this weapon (Medua) is because it can deal with Monoliths & do it properly from behind cover/without LOS in addition to being very effective against everything else - Other weapons have more limited roles, but none can do so well.

If I recall isn't the Medusa the one entry in the Ordinance Battery that cannot fire indirectly? Unless I am misinterpreting your meaning in the above quote.

Why are you spending 230 points on vets and Valk when you could get 110 points in storms that give about the same effect as the vets with more tactical versatility?That leaves 120 points to replace the missile pod and multi las you'd lose by not taking the valk. Might be able to get one of those other units you want.

I'll shut-up now.

The vets are scoring. He also only has 2 troops choices, one of which is vets.

The rest of his scoring units are going to be generally slow, so he gets a dynamic ability to snag late game objectives with vets in a Valk. On top of that, the Vets can all out of the Valkyrie and damage tanks with their melt guns.

Volkan wrote:

One of the main reasons im fielding this weapon (Medua) is because it can deal with Monoliths & do it properly from behind cover/without LOS in addition to being very effective against everything else - Other weapons have more limited roles, but none can do so well.

If I recall isn't the Medusa the one entry in the Ordinance Battery that cannot fire indirectly? Unless I am misinterpreting your meaning in the above quote.

Nope. Its original main weapon is Ordenance 36". No minimum range. Good old no-need LOS & ignores interveening cover aswell as 2D6 & pick the highest!

It can pick a ammo type (an additional ammo type as it doesnt replace the current weapon unlike other upgrades in the IG codex...coming soon ) which totally excels at anti-armor, pure and simple. In my opinion BS3 blast, with the target being a vehicle, is the most accurate mechenised platform guard can have without character upgrades or twin-linkage. AP1. str 10. A very healthy 54" effective range. 2d6 combined armor penetration. Loverly.

Thanks to the second vendetta & the seperate platoon command squad - I essentailly have three scoring blocks. With the ability to give 4 flamers to the PCS - they can actually be useful grav-shoot dropping/standard deploying from the vendetta.

So I get two dynamic scoring 12/12/10 extra armor fast-skimer vehicles Outflanking means the unit will be off the board & safe from first-turn volleys so a good proportion of my troops are safe but with the astropath (assuming he lives) I can add +1 to my rolls so I can get them on a bit quicker & (more importantly, as ive said before) exactly where I want, egde wise.

First turn Pinning str 3 ap 3 vets with the possibility of some melta wounds too (non-pinning) screams psyker battle squad & I havent gone down that route. It looks saucey as tasty pie with extra sauce though.... Cheers Focusedfire (and caffran9 )

Barrage lets you shoot indirectly, not ordnance. The medusa is direct fire only.

Silverthorne wrote:Barrage lets you shoot indirectly, not ordnance. The medusa is direct fire only.

Shock.. Horror

Oh wait...

Razerous wrote:Nope. Its original main weapon is Ordenance 36". No minimum range. Good old no-need LOS & ignores interveening cover aswell as 2D6 & pick the highest!

I wasnt wrong. Check the medusa's main weapon stats. Sure its shorter ranged, in its large blast mode, but thats one of the trade off's for its silly good damage. It gets the job done, LOS or no.

Razerous wrote:I wasnt wrong.

No, you were wrong. The Medusa is direct fire ordinance, which means you do need LOS and you don't ignore intervening cover.

You've also twice referred to the Strength 10, AP 2 large blast. You can't use the large blast. Read the entry again: A Medusa equipped with Bastion Breacher Shells looses the ability to fire the large template. You need to decide which size blast you want when you write up your army list.

Personally, I think you should find the +5 points to upgrade your Medusa to a Manticore. It's almost as good against heavy armor, and is much better against light armor and infantry. Plus it has longer range and the ability to fire indirectly.

Dave47 wrote:
Personally, I think you should find the +5 points to upgrade your Medusa to a Manticore. It's almost as good against heavy armor, and is much better against light armor and infantry. Plus it has longer range and the ability to fire indirectly.

Agreed, Manticores are far more effective.

Dave47 wrote:
You've also twice referred to the Strength 10, AP 2 large blast. You can't use the large blast. Read the entry again: A Medusa equipped with Bastion Breacher Shells looses the ability to fire the large template. You need to decide which size blast you want when you write up your army list.

sadly this is true. it kind of wrecked the sexiness of the medusa in my mind. I would much rather try to fit a demolisher than a medusa.

On a side note: I kind of like the idea of a ordnance battery consisting of a griffon + a colossus. griffon shoots first and rerolls scatter if necessary, then you get to place the nasty colossus template wherever it works best due to the multiple-barrage template placement rules. (rules lawyers: this works right?) That combo is only 50 points more than a single eradicator, but is significantly more firepower and it lets you get tricky manipulating the no-cover template (also colossus is ap3 vs eradicator ap4, so this is a total murderball).

I would probably drop the medusa and eradicators for a demolisher with plasma sponsons and a colossus/griffon battery. leaving an extra 55 points that you can spend on some plas sponsons for your executioner and other goodies somewhere else.

On Manticores; the limited ammunition rule doesn't really affect you. Almost definately by turn 5 (the first turn it can't shoot a rocket-if you fire one every previous turn), enemy deepstrikers or long range AT will have killed it

Dave47 wrote:

Razerous wrote:I wasnt wrong.

No, you were wrong. The Medusa is direct fire ordinance, which means you do need LOS and you don't ignore intervening cover.

You've also twice referred to the Strength 10, AP 2 large blast. You can't use the large blast. Read the entry again: A Medusa equipped with Bastion Breacher Shells looses the ability to fire the large template. You need to decide which size blast you want when you write up your army list.

Personally, I think you should find the +5 points to upgrade your Medusa to a Manticore. It's almost as good against heavy armor, and is much better against light armor and infantry. Plus it has longer range and the ability to fire indirectly.

Ive subsequently come to realise all the stuff about the medusa - specifically the one ammo type & its direct-fire-only abilities. I havent seemed to have amended my mistake herethough, sorry (I was wrong!).

I do still think its worthwhile, due to its range & anti-armor. In terms of comparison to the Manticore - its a brillaint weapon (and can fire below its 24" minimum, upon reading the rules again!) but the lack of AP1 & the lack of armor penetration, I think it will provide a sub-par anti-tank support role to that of the medusa.
Ive already gotten alot of very decent (better again that what a manticore could do in most cases) support for anti-infantry. Against light armor - A medusa can scatter off to the side and hit @ str5 & still have a relatively good chance to pen (lighter vehicles). Then it gets additional bonuses for ap1!

I can see how, with multiple barrages, you can quite often get a hit by either scoring one or more direct hits or simply overlapping second subsequent hits from the original scattered blast marker. It is a very awesome weapon system - I shall give it a go at some point

The colossus is a minimum range only weapon. It cant fire directly. I very much dont like this. Spending points on a vehicle for the very tight niche of long-ranged AP3 anti-cover isnt worth the effort, there are much better vehicles/weapons for long ranged anti-cover for ap4 targets & up. Yes that combo may put out more firepower but it is most definetely weaker by far. I am trying to field resistent armor where I can here.

I feel like a normal LRBT with Sponson Plasma Cannons is better than an Executioner with no extra weapons. They both shoot 3 times, but one of the blasts from the LRBT will be a big blast and ordnance against vehicles (2d6 pick the highest for ap). They both cost 190pts too.

Caffran9 wrote:I feel like a normal LRBT with Sponson Plasma Cannons is better than an Executioner with no extra weapons. They both shoot 3 times, but one of the blasts from the LRBT will be a big blast and ordnance against vehicles (2d6 pick the highest for ap). They both cost 190pts too.

The LRBT cannot wade through str 4 able close-combattents with immunity. It also cant actually wade through anything, not being able to move. I have concidered the different varients & mobility does factor into my descions as much as armements.

Razerous wrote:
I do still think its worthwhile, due to its range & anti-armor. In terms of comparison to the Manticore - its a brillaint weapon (and can fire below its 24" minimum, upon reading the rules again!) but the lack of AP1 & the lack of armor penetration, I think it will provide a sub-par anti-tank support role to that of the medusa.
Ive already gotten alot of very decent (better again that what a manticore could do in most cases) support for anti-infantry. Against light armor - A medusa can scatter off to the side and hit @ str5 & still have a relatively good chance to pen (lighter vehicles). Then it gets additional bonuses for ap1!

Still, you might as well get MM sponsons!

Sadly the medusa cant take multi-melta sponsons. And as Ive said many times before, mobility is always useful.

Razerous wrote:

Caffran9 wrote:I feel like a normal LRBT with Sponson Plasma Cannons is better than an Executioner with no extra weapons. They both shoot 3 times, but one of the blasts from the LRBT will be a big blast and ordnance against vehicles (2d6 pick the highest for ap). They both cost 190pts too.

The LRBT cannot wade through str 4 able close-combattents with immunity. It also cant actually wade through anything, not being able to move. I have concidered the different varients & mobility does factor into my descions as much as armements.

not being able to move? I think it can move 6" and shoot its cannon + another weapon as per Lumbering B (and I also may have hallucinated this, so please let me know if that is the case). How often do your tanks actually get caught in close combat? Mine are almost never in combat and when they are it is usually against a Power Fist, Meltabomb or something similar, and they don't care much if its RA10 or 11.

190pts just feels like a lot for 3 plasma cannon shots coming from one model I guess (at 1500pts anyway, I'd try especially hard for the most efficient firepower available at lower points values like this). It just feels like 3 shots isn't quite enough to actually remove a threat completely (like, it isn't enough to cut through an entire tactical squad to remove its multimelta unless they're really clumped together and you get good scatter rolls, which is almost never going to happen) or really do very significant damage to things unless they're small units and/or really close together. The 40pts spent on Plasma Cannon sponsons is no small cost for them, but 5 plasma cannons is a much more imposing number than 3, even if the enemy unit is spread out a bit.

Razerous wrote:Sadly the medusa cant take multi-melta sponsons. And as Ive said many times before, mobility is always useful.

I know, I meant MM sponsons on a LRMBT, if anything it'll be more mobile and far more effective

colonel584 wrote:

Razerous wrote:Sadly the medusa cant take multi-melta sponsons. And as Ive said many times before, mobility is always useful.

I know, I meant MM sponsons on a LRMBT, if anything it'll be more mobile and far more effective

12-18" 2d6 bonus pen range compared to a 48-56" 2d6. Str 10 vs str 8. 1 Bs3 blast vs 1-3 bs3 shots. If you think so, then sure. Go for it but you havent made an convincing argument.

Im using my hull mounted weapons to compliement the vehicle in question. Im not spending those extra expensive points on sponsons ill only ever use 1/2-0 of, assuming I wanna keep my leman russes moving.

I often get attacked by str 4 melee units, specifically hormagaunts, which are a pain with thier large charge range.

oh I gotcha on the Hormagaunts, I didn't really consider them because I didn't notice in the list makeup that there aren't many flamer templates (just the PCS right?). I've been having massive success with hull mounted HFs on my Chimeras, and I've run them on my Demolishers/Executioners a couple of times to test them out and also found them handy there. The heavy bolters they replace don't really output amazing fire over the first ocuple of turns while the enemy closes the gap, but when they get in close the HF templates are brutal. Agaisnt armies that stay back, you're only losing a few shots that will miss half the time anyway. Lots of heavy bolters do damage, but even swapping 7 of them out for heavy flamers, I'm finding that the close quarters ability outshines the range of the HBs. Since you've only got one Chimera, and all of your Russ hulls are pretty stripped down, you may find the HB shots more important early on, but it is perhaps something to consider.