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Sweeping Advance as described in the Warhammer 40k 5th ed rulebook.

40k 5th ed wrote:If the winner’s total is equal or greater they catch the fleeing enemy with a sweeping advance. The falling back unit is destroyed. We assume that the already demoralised foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart and sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded, and captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit(s) is removed immediately. Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting.

In the Assault phase, models are removed with no Save. Thusly we move onto the definition of a Save.

40k 5th ed wrote:A creature’s Armour Saving Throw (often shortened to ‘Armour Save’, or even ‘Save’) gives it a chance of avoiding harm when it is struck or shot. Most creatures have an Armour Save based on what kind of armour they are wearing, so this characteristic may be improved if they are equipped with better armour. Other creatures may receive a natural Saving throw from having a thick hide or chitinous shell.

As described here, a Save is something that allows a model to avoid lethal harm via some hard exterior, armor and what have you.

The rulebook describes Sweeping Advance as an effect in the Assault phase. As such, it is an effect that happens in close combat that ignores Armor Saves.

Now for further clarification on this we can look at the 2008 Necron FAQ.

Necron FAQ 2008 wrote:Q. Do Necrons destroyed in close combat by any attack that cancels armour saves count as being destroyed with power weapons?
A. Yes, and therefore they cannot make a WBB roll. This is also the case with rending claws, Sisters of Battle rolling a 6 for the 'divine guidance' Act of Faith (although the divine guidance used in the Shooting phase has no effect upon WBB) and so on.

Combining the reading of the 40k, 5th edition rulebook with the latest Necron FAQ I can see that Necrons could indeed be allowed a We'll Be Back roll after being killed with a Sweeping Advance if there were a Necron Lord with a Resurrection Orb nearby.

Without the presence of said Necron Lord those Necrons killed in a sweeping advance would not be allowed their We'll Be Back roll.

I had not previously thought of such things. The next time I bring this up at the local game store it will spark an interesting discussion.

Someone else please look at these entries independently and share your conclusions.
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From Divergent Reality, moderator of The C'Tan Support Group

A couple of things:

SA is not an attack...it is a condition resulting from an attack. Thus, the FAQ sited is irrelevant.

Neither the WBB rule nor the ResOrb rule override the SA rule. Therefor, no, Necrons lost to sweeping advance do not benefit from the ResOrb effect.

I would agree if we were talking about FNP or things like bionics, as

no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage

, or something like Yarrick's rule, which explicitly requires him to lose his last wound, but it seems that SA falls under

Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on it's side to show it's damaged

You see, WBB and SA are not exclusive. The necrons die, just as if they were wounded by a powered weapon. Then, assuming they still qualify for WBB (specifically within 6" of a res orb, like model within 6", or tomb spyder within 12" and like model on the board) They would roll and join the nearest similar unit.

The core of the dispute goes back to Rule #1, Codices always takes precedence over the BBB.

Okay, doing some reading through the book and Necron codex, this still seems hard...

Necron Warriors Unit A gets swept from combat, however, there is both a Res Orb AND a Tomb Spider (and other warriors on the board) in range, will they get the WBB?

Seeing parts of the BRB, saying stuff like "The falling back unit is destroyed", "the unit is removed immediately", THEN reading the necron codex "Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop" it seems difficult at best to decided how to rule this one...

You seem to be skipping over this part of the Sweeping Advance rule:

"Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."


A special rule would have to say specifically that the unit is immune to being wiped out by a sweeping advance. ANY OTHER special rule does not apply, because for models killed by a sweeping advance the "battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."

WBB is a special rule that reduces the damage suffered (as it allows models to get back up and fight again) and therefore does not work when the unit is wiped out via a sweeping advance.

yakface wrote:
You seem to be skipping over this part of the Sweeping Advance rule:

"Unless differently specified, no Save or other special rule that normally reduces the damage suffered can save the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."


A special rule would have to say specifically that the unit is immune to being wiped out by a sweeping advance. ANY OTHER special rule does not apply, because for models killed by a sweeping advance the "battle is over and they can take no further useful part in the fighting."

WBB is a special rule that reduces the damage suffered (as it allows models to get back up and fight again) and therefore does not work when the unit is wiped out via a sweeping advance.

What The Yak Said. In short: No, WBB does not work against Sweeping Advance ever.

In 4th, they FAQed it, no, Necrons do not get a WBB after the unit is destroyed in a Sweeping Advance. Then in 5th they rewrote the Sweeping Advance rule to cover "special rules" and eliminate these problems. Yet it still comes up over and over.
No, Necrons do not get a WBB after a Sweeping Advance, as their "special rule" does not specifically protect them from SA. And yes, the downed models belonging to the unit are removed as well........... To the best of my knowledge, only ATSKNF protects a unit from being destroyed in a Sweeping Advance.

"And yes, the downed models belonging to the unit are removed as well"

I know that this is false. Since those models already died, they are not eligible to be swept. In most cases, they don't meet the other requirements, namely a like squad within 6" (because they were multicharged, duh), but if they do, they should get their WBB.

Jalil wrote:"And yes, the downed models belonging to the unit are removed as well"

I know that this is false. Since those models already died, they are not eligible to be swept. In most cases, they don't meet the other requirements, namely a like squad within 6" (because they were multicharged, duh), but if they do, they should get their WBB.

They do belong to the same unit actually. For example, if you would use the monolith to teleport the 'unit' so you can re-roll WBB rolls then you would move the downed models as well, because if they were not part of the same 'unit' then the monolith re-roll WBB rolls would be a useless ability.

You can't have it both ways is the morale of the story here. If they are part of the unit when it comes to teleporting the unit through the monolith, then they are part of the unit for every other purpose as well, to include sweeping advances.

The rules for sweeping advance specifically calls out that the 'unit' is removed, not just the models swept.

Jalil wrote:"And yes, the downed models belonging to the unit are removed as well"

I know that this is false. Since those models already died, they are not eligible to be swept. In most cases, they don't meet the other requirements, namely a like squad within 6" (because they were multicharged, duh), but if they do, they should get their WBB.

You know, having such a condescending tone is doubly rude when you are wrong. The downed models are still considered part of the unit. This is why they get telleported by the Monolith and why they fall back with the unit should it ever need to fall back. As Padixon said, you can't have it both ways.

jalil, they can fall back as part of the unit, they can teleport through the Monolith for a 2nd WBB as part of the unit. Gotta take the bad with the good. They're still part of the unit until/unless they make their WBB and join a different unit due to it's like model being closer.

Edit: Darn it, ninja'd by Gwar.............. Almost the same post even.

from Hawker:

Codex trumps rulebook when it comes to a conflict of rules. this is universally agreed on.

WBB is seems to be implicit - the only things that do NOT allow WBB are the two given examples.
If WBB were explicit, WBB would only be allowed when certain listed conditions (e.g. destroyed in CC by a weapon that allows armor saves) are met. However, the codex does NOT specify the conditions that have to be met for WBB to be ALLOWED, only DISALLOWED, hence it is implicit.

as for SA:
"UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit....".
So it really comes down to whether or not you regard WBB as a 'other special rule' or 'otherwise specified'.
Due to the above-shown implicity of WBB, as well as the fact "codex > rulebook", i choose to believe that WBB comes under 'unless otherwise specified'.
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Unless otherwise FAQ'd. Laid out like this, can you not agree this this area is gray?

nope..not grey at all.

Sweeping advance does not allow WBB, period.

That is why it is better to be wiped out as a unit of necrons, rather than have a couple Warriors survive and then be swept. The wipe out would allow WBB for the dead necrons, while the Sweeping Advance would not.

Sweeping advance does not allow WBB, period.

You're entitled to your opinion, but please show me where it says that in the rules.

Please show me where you get WBB after a sweeping advance.

Jalil wrote:

Sweeping advance does not allow WBB, period.

You're entitled to your opinion, but please show me where it says that in the rules.

I have already taken the time to show you but you're choosing to ignore what the rules say because, I'm guessing, you have vested interest in the outcome.

Jalil wrote:from Hawker:

Codex trumps rulebook when it comes to a conflict of rules. this is universally agreed on.

WBB is seems to be implicit - the only things that do NOT allow WBB are the two given examples.
If WBB were explicit, WBB would only be allowed when certain listed conditions (e.g. destroyed in CC by a weapon that allows armor saves) are met. However, the codex does NOT specify the conditions that have to be met for WBB to be ALLOWED, only DISALLOWED, hence it is implicit.

as for SA:
"UNLESS OTHERWISE SPECIFIED, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit....".
So it really comes down to whether or not you regard WBB as a 'other special rule' or 'otherwise specified'.
Due to the above-shown implicity of WBB, as well as the fact "codex > rulebook", i choose to believe that WBB comes under 'unless otherwise specified'.
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Unless otherwise FAQ'd. Laid out like this, can you not agree this this area is gray?

Codexes do not trump the rulebook automatically in all cases, the codex actually has to be more specific in a conflicting instance to do so.

The rulebook clearly states that a unit wiped out by a Sweeping Advance cannot use any special rules to save itself. This is a very specific statement because it actually says "special rules" which is what WBB is. So in order for a special rule, such as WBB, to ignore this mandate it would need to specifically say that it ignores the Sweeping Advance restriction in order for it to work in this situation.

yak just squirted fail sauce all over your attempt to cheat someone out of a SA annihilation of your necrons squad.

its pretty obvious that you CANT and you still try squirm out a way that you can.

its a game its not that serious, now call your friend up and apologize for cheating him.

Well, not to bring up old issues and start a flame fest. I have an honest addition to this topic, so please just clarify, not yell. I'm not saying I'm right, but this is our opinion.

Aside from all the points stated above, we see the SA and WBB conflict being a timing issue. It says "unless otherwise specified ... at this stage". At that stage, the Necrons ARE dead, nothing has saved them. WBB doesn't kick in until the start of the Necron turn.

It even says that knocked over Necrons don't count for anything other than debris. So them being removed seems moot. They are treated as debris only, so they're just aesthetic reminders that when WBB can kick in, they're there.

Also, for the whole "unit is destroyed" and mitigation of WBB, they would have to become another unit at the start of their turn. This point may be moot, but I saw mention of it earlier so thought I might add it for review.

Again, just wanted clarification on our opinion, not trying to start a flame-fest here. Apologies if we resurrected this thread with undue stress to readers and moderators alike!

Thank you for the time to read this.

RogalDorn wrote:Well, not to bring up old issues and start a flame fest. I have an honest addition to this topic, so please just clarify, not yell. I'm not saying I'm right, but this is our opinion.

Aside from all the points stated above, we see the SA and WBB conflict being a timing issue. It says "unless otherwise specified ... at this stage". At that stage, the Necrons ARE dead, nothing has saved them. WBB doesn't kick in until the start of the Necron turn.

It won't be able to kick in because you have to remove them from play.

RogalDorn wrote:It even says that knocked over Necrons don't count for anything other than debris. So them being removed seems moot. They are treated as debris only, so they're just aesthetic reminders that when WBB can kick in, they're there.

Also, for the whole "unit is destroyed" and mitigation of WBB, they would have to become another unit at the start of their turn. This point may be moot, but I saw mention of it earlier so thought I might add it for review.

Again, just wanted clarification on our opinion, not trying to start a flame-fest here. Apologies if we resurrected this thread with undue stress to readers and moderators alike!

Thank you for the time to read this.

You have to remove the models when they are caught by a sweeping advance. No special rule that does not otherwise specify can stop this. As such, they will not be around to take those WBB rolls. I hope that clarifies it for you.

So, the WBB rules say that when a model is removed it is sat down instead.

The "unless otherwise specified..." saying special rules don't work is referring to them being sat down? Because sitting them down isn't anything of concern to whether or not they die. They're just debris and are still counted as dead.

The problem we ran into was that it didn't say those specific models were removed from the game, just that they were removed. Just like the WBB rule says "otherwise removed as a casualty". Are these terms not the same?

No sarcasm is intended in these questions, they're not rhetorical, I'm honestly asking and trying to figure this out. I'm running a tournament soon, so I would like to have solid reasons should it come up.

Thanks again.

Downed Necron models which were a part of the unit which got swept are still part of the unit which got swept. They are still a part of the unit until they get their WBB rolls, otherwise the bit in the Monolith rule about "Any model in that unit, although eligible to self-repair, failed their 'We'll be back' roll..." wouldn't work.

Because the downed Necron models are still part of the unit, even though they're ignored for all other purposes, they'll be removed when the unit is removed by the sweeping advance.

The special rule cannot stop the unit from being removed unless specified. It is not specified, thus cannot stop it.

So timing has no issue, then? Since the WBB rule doesn't kick in until the start of the Necron turn, and the "cannot be saved at this stage" part of the SA rule don't seem to play into the same timeframe. Is it still ignored for SA?

I don't mean to be dragging this out, I just want to be clear.

The timing is such that they ("the destroyed unit") are "removed immediately" (and again no special rule can stop this). Because of this, they will not be around for WBB.

So when they are laid down and ignored for all normal game purposes, is SA not a normal game purpose?

Because the thing is that WBB does not save them, they are not laid down instead. They're laid down after they would be otherwise removed, and then they're ignored. Like the guys said, it's an aesthetic reminder.

The big problem we're seeing is that the INAT FAQ nor GW FAQs cover it, so a lot of it comes down to mob mentality and heresay.

This just seems to be a difficult decision to make as a tournament organizer, because I'm hearing a lot of logical statements on both sides.

Thanks, though, Dracos, I really appreciate your input. You're really helping move this along for me!

WBB would have to be able to save them from being "removed immediately". It does not specify that it can save them from being removed immediately (edit) by sweepiong advance, so they are not laid down and are just removed.

For me, this argument begins and ends in the wording of Sweeping advance:
"We assume the already demoralized foe is comprehensively scattered, ripped apart or sent packing, its members left either dead, wounded or captured, or at best fleeing and hiding. The destroyed unit is removed immediately"..."For them the battle is over."
Sweeping advance doesn't specify that the unit is "destroyed" (something that WBB could conceivably help with) it specifies that they are done fighting, for whatever reason you feel like inserting for fluff reasons. WBB does not mention sweeping advances in any way in its rules description, and therefore cannot fulfill the "Unless otherwise specified" stipulation in the SA rule.

While you are mostly correct, it does in fact state that "The falling back unit is destroyed".

edit: That doesn't really change anything though, but you explicitly stated it wasn't there when it is.

Dracos wrote:While you are mostly correct, it does in fact state that "The falling back unit is destroyed".

edit: That doesn't really change anything though, but you explicitly stated it wasn't there when it is.

Right. The main rules says "The destroyed unit is removed immediately." Whether or not the individual models are killed, and whether or not WBB would kick in, the rulebook still says to remove the unit, because "Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit..." So, even if the entire unit gets put on its side because WBB, you still have to pick them all up and remove them from the table because their special rule can't save them.

WBB says "if they would otherwise be removed as a casualty" and when you lay them down, this doesn't save them, all it means is that they become an aesthetic reminder. They count as destroyed and removed, they count as that.

And the clause "at this stage" is a timing issue for when they could be saved by rolling for WBB, because that doesn't happen until the next turn.

Also, it does say "Destroyed" in the SA rule, to clarify.

Thanks for the replies, guys. Again, this is a collective of questions and arguments from Necrons and non-Necrons alike here. Thank you for being patient and taking the time to address this!