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TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

He made a deal with something that he didn't quite understand but still thought he knew better than. He thought he was the master of the warp before Nikaea, he was arrogant before the edict and even worse afterwards.

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

He made a deal with something that he didn't quite understand but still thought he knew better than. He thought he was the master of the warp before Nikaea, he was arrogant before the edict and even worse afterwards.

Which is completely different to every other primarch, especially Russ.

He was arrogant, but it didn't really directly bring his fall. He was arrogant enough to send a psychic message to the Emperor even though it was illegal, but he was also just being helpful.

Durza wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

He made a deal with something that he didn't quite understand but still thought he knew better than. He thought he was the master of the warp before Nikaea, he was arrogant before the edict and even worse afterwards.

Which is completely different to every other primarch, especially Russ.

Sorry Durza, missing your point here

TheAngrySquig wrote:He was arrogant, but it didn't really directly bring his fall. He was arrogant enough to send a psychic message to the Emperor even though it was illegal, but he was also just being helpful.

He made a deal with something that he thought he was superior too, without knowing really that much about it, thinking that he had got one over on the entity. That's arrogance, to think that you're the biggest fish in the pond when you have only skimmed the surface. I don't know what else was the cause of his fall. If he would've sucked it up like a good loyal son and taken the edict for what it was then he might still be kicking ass with the Emperors seal of approval. At least until Tzeentch cashed in his chips.

Magnus thought that because he was the most learned of all of his brothers he was the greatest of them, knowledge is power and all that. But it made him prideful and we all know what that comes before.

He's a great character with a great story. I think the Heresy series hasn't portrayed him in such a good light. But he has always being a magik tainted warlock

Pilau Rice wrote:

Durza wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

He made a deal with something that he didn't quite understand but still thought he knew better than. He thought he was the master of the warp before Nikaea, he was arrogant before the edict and even worse afterwards.

Which is completely different to every other primarch, especially Russ.

Sorry Durza, missing your point here

Sorry, I couldn't find the button for the sarcasm font.

What I meant was that almost every primarch was arrogant and dealt with things they had no idea about. In Legion, Alpharius (or Omegon... or someone else) lectures the Imperial guard force about the dangers of the Warp while John Grammaticus is horrified at how little the primarch seems to know. Fulgrim decided there was absolutely nothing wrong with taking a sword from the orgy-temple of an alien race and letting it talk to him. Horus believed himself to be the master of Chaos until the very end. Russ, the most outspoken against the use of psykers decided that Rune Priests weren't psykers because LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING POWER OF FENRIS LA LA LA!

In instances of arrogance not dealing with the Warp, there's the Lion, who expected complete loyalty from the men he abandoned for no particular reason. Guilliman, who decided that his tactics were the best because he's Guilliman, and feth anyone who says otherwise.

Magnus isn't particularly unusual in the arrogance department.

Durza wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Durza wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Magnus also had the thing he was best at and loved most torn away, so he went on despite the restrictions and it lead to his fall. So in a way, the Nikean(sp?) Creed led to his arrogance, which lead to his fall.

He made a deal with something that he didn't quite understand but still thought he knew better than. He thought he was the master of the warp before Nikaea, he was arrogant before the edict and even worse afterwards.

Which is completely different to every other primarch, especially Russ.

Sorry Durza, missing your point here

Sorry, I couldn't find the button for the sarcasm font.

What I meant was that almost every primarch was arrogant and dealt with things they had no idea about. In Legion, Alpharius (or Omegon... or someone else) lectures the Imperial guard force about the dangers of the Warp while John Grammaticus is horrified at how little the primarch seems to know. Fulgrim decided there was absolutely nothing wrong with taking a sword from the orgy-temple of an alien race and letting it talk to him. Horus believed himself to be the master of Chaos until the very end. Russ, the most outspoken against the use of psykers decided that Rune Priests weren't psykers because LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING POWER OF FENRIS LA LA LA!

In instances of arrogance not dealing with the Warp, there's the Lion, who expected complete loyalty from the men he abandoned for no particular reason. Guilliman, who decided that his tactics were the best because he's Guilliman, and feth anyone who says otherwise.

Magnus isn't particularly unusual in the arrogance department.

Not to mention Dorn...

Durza wrote:
Sorry, I couldn't find the button for the sarcasm font.

What I meant was that almost every primarch was arrogant and dealt with things they had no idea about. In Legion, Alpharius (or Omegon... or someone else) lectures the Imperial guard force about the dangers of the Warp while John Grammaticus is horrified at how little the primarch seems to know. Fulgrim decided there was absolutely nothing wrong with taking a sword from the orgy-temple of an alien race and letting it talk to him. Horus believed himself to be the master of Chaos until the very end. Russ, the most outspoken against the use of psykers decided that Rune Priests weren't psykers because LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING POWER OF FENRIS LA LA LA!

In instances of arrogance not dealing with the Warp, there's the Lion, who expected complete loyalty from the men he abandoned for no particular reason. Guilliman, who decided that his tactics were the best because he's Guilliman, and feth anyone who says otherwise.

Magnus isn't particularly unusual in the arrogance department.

Ah I see, would be handy sometimes if their was a font wouldn't it? Or the colour of sarcasm could be violet

I agree with you totally, each of the Primarchs had their issues. But I was talking about Magnus, not the other Primarchs. You've expressed the same sort of opinions I have, especially on Russ. Russ is a hypocrite, by pleading ignorance he's allowed to get away with the use of psykers, he's the worst of the bunch.

The difference between Magnus is he made a deal, the others might have been over their heads in lots of regards, but they didn't make deals because they thought they knew best. Well Actually, Alpharius did thinking about it. But the difference is it wasn't so much for personal gain rather than the survival of mankind. By personal gain I mean saving his legion, what use is a Primarch without a legion?

Hey here's a thought, what if the Emperor had intended for the geneseed of the Thousand Sons to be unstable so that eventually the Thousand Sons just ceased to be or mutated so badly that they had to be purged? What purpose would Magnus have if he had no Legion to lead other than to serve his father as best he could? New thread maybe?

The Codex is made up of rules of engagement taken from all fields of war, not just Guillimans. The Index Astartes article on the Iron Warriors goes on to state that the codex includes tactics that Perturabo created. But I get your point.

TheAngrySquig wrote:
Not to mention Dorn...

As the Heresy series progresses I feel that we're getting less and less of arrogance. He's scared more than any thing else and quite possibly the one that suffers from his emotions more than the others.

Magnus, angron or fulgrim.

Magnus and fulgrim cos of the tragic villian aspect.

Angron cos he seems stupid but is far from it and had a genuine reason to hate the emperor unlike 'boohoo, daddy went work' horus.

Nom

Pilau Rice wrote:

Hey here's a thought, what if the Emperor had intended for the geneseed of the Thousand Sons to be unstable so that eventually the Thousand Sons just ceased to be or mutated so badly that they had to be purged? What purpose would Magnus have if he had no Legion to lead other than to serve his father as best he could? New thread maybe?

Lets just do it here, it relates to the discussion at hand a little. I dont get why the Emperor would want just a primarch without a legion, maybe he intended for Magnus to replace Malcador?

TheAngrySquig wrote:
Lets just do it here, it relates to the discussion at hand a little. I dont get why the Emperor would want just a primarch without a legion, maybe he intended for Magnus to replace Malcador?

Well that's just it, in Collected Visions the Emperor states that he had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, but Magnus impromptu message scuppered that plan and forced him to sit on it to stop the denizens of the warp from pouring in.

I guess the Emperor wouldn't know about Magnus bargain, so was just playing the waiting game. If the Legion had all died because of the flesh change and left Magnus with nothing, wouldn't helping his father have given his life meaning, if only it was as a psychic battery. Not an existence I can imagine that Magnus would want.

Imagine if the Emperor had finished the Webway and Magnus was still leading the Thousand Sons. I am not sure if Magnus would abandon his children even if it was to assist the Emperor in his grand scheme. Take away the Thousand Sons and you make that decision easier for Magnus to make.

Taking away the legion with some Russ-in-a-can, Magnus would be devastated and look to the Emporer for guidance. Well played, but I feel like it would almost work better with Lorgar, if he was a better psyker

TheAngrySquig wrote:Taking away the legion with some Russ-in-a-can, Magnus would be devastated and look to the Emporer for guidance. Well played, but I feel like it would almost work better with Lorgar, if he was a better psyker

Lorgar was the the body double for when the Emperor went to the pub

Rofl

I like Alpharius. I read the book legion and it blew me away. It is awesome. I love the whole spy/secrecy they hold. pretty cool.

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:
Lets just do it here, it relates to the discussion at hand a little. I dont get why the Emperor would want just a primarch without a legion, maybe he intended for Magnus to replace Malcador?

Well that's just it, in Collected Visions the Emperor states that he had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, but Magnus impromptu message scuppered that plan and forced him to sit on it to stop the denizens of the warp from pouring in.

I guess the Emperor wouldn't know about Magnus bargain, so was just playing the waiting game. If the Legion had all died because of the flesh change and left Magnus with nothing, wouldn't helping his father have given his life meaning, if only it was as a psychic battery. Not an existence I can imagine that Magnus would want.

Imagine if the Emperor had finished the Webway and Magnus was still leading the Thousand Sons. I am not sure if Magnus would abandon his children even if it was to assist the Emperor in his grand scheme. Take away the Thousand Sons and you make that decision easier for Magnus to make.

Interesting, but isn't it possible that the instability was caused by Tzeentch purposefully manipulating it, rather than any actual problem? Hence, Magnus makes a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change. Tzeentch gladly stops the flesh change and instead just mutates the legion with their psychic sensitivity.

If the Emperor planned it for Magnus though, it would make me a bit suspicious about the Fulgrim gene-seed loss as well. Though the only role I could see him in is supplies. And of course, the reason he never made Alpharius reveal his home planet.

Durza wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:
Lets just do it here, it relates to the discussion at hand a little. I dont get why the Emperor would want just a primarch without a legion, maybe he intended for Magnus to replace Malcador?

Well that's just it, in Collected Visions the Emperor states that he had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, but Magnus impromptu message scuppered that plan and forced him to sit on it to stop the denizens of the warp from pouring in.

I guess the Emperor wouldn't know about Magnus bargain, so was just playing the waiting game. If the Legion had all died because of the flesh change and left Magnus with nothing, wouldn't helping his father have given his life meaning, if only it was as a psychic battery. Not an existence I can imagine that Magnus would want.

Imagine if the Emperor had finished the Webway and Magnus was still leading the Thousand Sons. I am not sure if Magnus would abandon his children even if it was to assist the Emperor in his grand scheme. Take away the Thousand Sons and you make that decision easier for Magnus to make.

Interesting, but isn't it possible that the instability was caused by Tzeentch purposefully manipulating it, rather than any actual problem? Hence, Magnus makes a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change. Tzeentch gladly stops the flesh change and instead just mutates the legion with their psychic sensitivity.

If the Emperor planned it for Magnus though, it would make me a bit suspicious about the Fulgrim gene-seed loss as well. Though the only role I could see him in is supplies. And of course, the reason he never made Alpharius reveal his home planet.

Did Alpharius choose to not reveal his home planet? Or did the emporer not ask?

I thinkk it's the same as Dorn, noone really knows

Pilau Rice wrote:Well that's just it, in Collected Visions the Emperor states that he had intended Magnus to sit on the Golden Throne, but Magnus impromptu message scuppered that plan and forced him to sit on it to stop the denizens of the warp from pouring in.

I guess the Emperor wouldn't know about Magnus bargain, so was just playing the waiting game. If the Legion had all died because of the flesh change and left Magnus with nothing, wouldn't helping his father have given his life meaning, if only it was as a psychic battery. Not an existence I can imagine that Magnus would want.

Imagine if the Emperor had finished the Webway and Magnus was still leading the Thousand Sons. I am not sure if Magnus would abandon his children even if it was to assist the Emperor in his grand scheme. Take away the Thousand Sons and you make that decision easier for Magnus to make.

The notion that the Emperor created a Legion purposefully flawed for it to die so he can better manipulate his son portrays the Emperor as even more of a jerkass than usual. It is possible though.

However, it is unnecessary. Magnus himself believed that the Great Crusade would eventually end, as shown by him urging his sons to acquire talents beyond warfare to fall back on when it ended (Ahriman for instance brews wine). Furthermore, when he accidently destroyed the Webway, he was mortified partially because sitting on the throne and leading humanity to a new Golden Age through his psychic talents would be considered a great honor for him.

So stuff.

The big E may have just done it for the lulz though, he's kind of a dick

Durza wrote:
Interesting, but isn't it possible that the instability was caused by Tzeentch purposefully manipulating it, rather than any actual problem? Hence, Magnus makes a deal with Tzeentch to stop the flesh change. Tzeentch gladly stops the flesh change and instead just mutates the legion with their psychic sensitivity.

Could be, but it took the power of all four chaos Gods to break the wards surrounding the Genelabs when they scattered the Primarchs. Maybe Tzeentch was prevented from interfering.

Void__Dragon wrote:The notion that the Emperor created a Legion purposefully flawed for it to die so he can better manipulate his son portrays the Emperor as even more of a jerkass than usual. It is possible though.

However, it is unnecessary. Magnus himself believed that the Great Crusade would eventually end, as shown by him urging his sons to acquire talents beyond warfare to fall back on when it ended (Ahriman for instance brews wine). Furthermore, when he accidently destroyed the Webway, he was mortified partially because sitting on the throne and leading humanity to a new Golden Age through his psychic talents would be considered a great honor for him.

True, but perhaps the Emperor needed that extra incentive for Magnus, there's no guarantee that Magnus would abandon his Sons when it came to the choice. Just a thought anyhoo.

Pilau Rice wrote:

True, but perhaps the Emperor needed that extra incentive for Magnus, there's no guarantee that Magnus would abandon his Sons when it came to the choice. Just a thought anyhoo.

I can't see the emperor being that calculatedly cruel since his main drive was to unite humanity. He'd of just waited til the crusade was over and magnus had no purpose anyway and ask him to do it then.


nom

Pilau Rice wrote:Could be, but it took the power of all four chaos Gods to break the wards surrounding the Genelabs when they scattered the Primarchs. Maybe Tzeentch was prevented from interfering.

In First Heretic, it just took a Word Bearer with some power swords and a Slaneeshi Daemon

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Could be, but it took the power of all four chaos Gods to break the wards surrounding the Genelabs when they scattered the Primarchs. Maybe Tzeentch was prevented from interfering.

In First Heretic, it just took a Word Bearer with some power swords and a Slaneeshi Daemon

That's a nice dramatic moment in the book, but it's kind of full of derp when you think about it.

Of course it could all have been a grand illusion cooked up by the Ruinous Powers.

That's true, maybe he just wasn't paying attention and let the little thing slip by?

TheAngrySquig wrote:

In First Heretic, it just took a Word Bearer with some power swords and a Slaneeshi Daemon

All Daemons are falsehood. They are lies, given the shape of creatures by the power of Chaos. Fear the Daemons of Khorne for this reason and then fear them once more.
Inquisitor Covenant

It's all Chaos smoke and mirrors Squiggy.

Were they really there? Was Horus there? Was that the real palace, did they even leave their ship?

Maybe if it was an actual event, the Chaos Gods needed the Word Bearers to cut the power to the Geller Fields so that they could open the portal to the warp to scatter the Primarchs. Makes the Gods even more wimpy if they had to rely on mortals to do their dirty work

I don't know about 'even more', since they weren't particularly wimpy to begin with. And gods typically act through mortals on the material plane.

Just because the daemons are lies doesn't mean they can't tell the truth when it would serve them better.

Durza wrote:I don't know about 'even more', since they weren't particularly wimpy to begin with. And gods typically act through mortals on the material plane.

Just because the daemons are lies doesn't mean they can't tell the truth when it would serve them better.

I was saying them being wimpy in jest, hence the laughing face, as they are clearly powerful beings but why couldn't they stop the Emperor without the Word Bearers? Why couldn't Ingethel pull the plug?

So far what visions we have seen that have been shown to the traitors have been truths, but they have been truths for what happens if they rebel against the Emperor and they lose, as if they were the visions of the future where they let the Emperors goals come to fruition. The statues of the Primarchs, less Horus, the Emperor worshipped as a God, all caused by their actions. Like I said smoke and mirrors with lies and half truths.

Same with the whole cabal and the Acuity dealio.

That's how I see it anyway.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Durza wrote:I don't know about 'even more', since they weren't particularly wimpy to begin with. And gods typically act through mortals on the material plane.

Just because the daemons are lies doesn't mean they can't tell the truth when it would serve them better.

I was saying them being wimpy in jest, hence the laughing face, as they are clearly powerful beings but why couldn't they stop the Emperor without the Word Bearers? Why couldn't Ingethel pull the plug?

So far what visions we have seen that have been shown to the traitors have been truths, but they have been truths for what happens if they rebel against the Emperor and they lose, as if they were the visions of the future where they let the Emperors goals come to fruition. The statues of the Primarchs, less Horus, the Emperor worshipped as a God, all caused by their actions. Like I said smoke and mirrors with lies and half truths.

Same with the whole cabal and the Acuity dealio.

That's how I see it anyway.

Acuity? Who did they feth over?

Pilau Rice wrote:True, but perhaps the Emperor needed that extra incentive for Magnus, there's no guarantee that Magnus would abandon his Sons when it came to the choice. Just a thought anyhoo.

Damn man, I'm all for claiming that the Emperor was a dick, but even by my standards that sounds sinister for him.

But as I said, it is possible.

I'm pretty sure that he's enough of a dick